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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted April 14, 2008 11:11 PM |
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Except technically speaking, The americans are immigrants on the moon.
Arguably a lot of people are immigrants from the middle east since thats where mankind assumedly originated. Though the Native americans can probably be excluded from this considering its impossible.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 15, 2008 12:18 AM |
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So because the new immigrants to America systematically wiped out the natives to the point they couldn't react much means that they should go off without blame?
No one responsible for wiping out the natives is alive now. So there's no one to blame.
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Eccentric Opinion
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted April 15, 2008 01:12 AM |
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And theres a small population in Isreal thats to blame for making the country, and are you saying its imperative to treat the palestenians well until such a time when everyone thats from the creation of Isreal is dead? No offense but your either not expressing yourself properly or you should scrap what your saying and start anew
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 15, 2008 02:42 AM |
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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Israel should recognize that its creation is a mistake, and the source of its problems.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 15, 2008 11:45 AM |
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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Israel should recognize that its creation is a mistake, and the source of its problems.
According to what you're saying, the creation of the united states is a mistake, too. 
But actually, we have one good reason that gives us the right for a state:
Without a country with a strong army, we wouldn't be here.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 15, 2008 01:48 PM |
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To a certain extent, yes. But the creation of the US was mainly bad for the Native Americans, while the creation of Israel was bad for Palestinians and Israelis alike. Remember that Native Americans aren't blowing themselves up to make Americans leave America.
What does the army have to do with anything?
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Eccentric Opinion
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 15, 2008 02:14 PM |
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To a certain extent, yes. But the creation of the US was mainly bad for the Native Americans, while the creation of Israel was bad for Palestinians and Israelis alike. Remember that Native Americans aren't blowing themselves up to make Americans leave America.
What does the army have to do with anything?
The creation of Israel was bad for the Israelis? 
Without a state with rulles and all, it's very hard to make one organized army. We need army to protect ourselves, and we need a state to control our army.
Also remember that Israel started from nothing, and it is today as advanced as the countries in Europe. We give our technology to the Palestinians. Notice that most of the Arabian states haven't got an advanced technology like Israel, so without Israel, we would live today without computers, fridges, electricity is some places, we would be very poor, etc.
So how can you say the creation of Israel was bad for the Israelis?
Edit: I want to add that violence towards the Israelis was also before its creation. There were "the clashes" - terrorist attacks of the Palestinians upon Jews. The big clashes were on 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936-1939, and more. These were like long Crystal Nights, but less powerful.
Also, don't forget the 6 million Jews that were killed in the holocaust.
The difference between now and then is simple:
With our own state we have the power to deal with those things, and prevent them from happening.
You are welcome to read here.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 15, 2008 09:34 PM |
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The creation of Israel was bad for the Israelis?
Yes, since they're getting blown up by the Palestinians.
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We need army to protect ourselves, and we need a state to control our army.
The way it looks now, as long as the Israelis live in former Palestinian territory, they're going to have to be using their military all the time.
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Also remember that Israel started from nothing, and it is today as advanced as the countries in Europe.
After Europe gave them a lot. And Israel had very good immigration policies, and got a lot of skilled hardworking people.
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Notice that most of the Arabian states haven't got an advanced technology like Israel
Notice that when you have the money, you can buy technology. The average Israeli is richer than the average Arab.
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so without Israel, we would live today without computers, fridges, electricity is some places, we would be very poor, etc.
"We"? Who are "we"? The Jews? The Arabs? The Jews would live in Europe, and would have been prospering just as well in Western Europe (and not getting blown up by terrorists, either!). The Arabs were poor then and are still poor now.
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So how can you say the creation of Israel was bad for the Israelis?
Because they put themselves in a country where they forcibly removed a people who now hate them for it, and some are willing to kill for it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TnT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted April 15, 2008 09:50 PM |
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@MVassilev, dude do you even notice that you argue about stuff more than anyone else? People actually try to talk and explain themselves to you but it's like talking to a log.
Wouldn't hurt you to learn something new for a change without imposing your wrong minor knowledge.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted April 15, 2008 10:57 PM |
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But mvassilev, You didnt notie what i said earlier! maybe Isreal should attack the palestenians like the Americans attacked the natives to the point of where they cant damage a baby, Do you think that would be a good idea?
btw, Suicide bombings average one a year now, More people die each year from being drunk and driving and from smoking. More people probably die from falling down steps probably.
Oh yeah, And the number of people attacking (Maybe not killing) jews in europe is risign far far faster then the number of palestenians attacking jews (due to security, not any mental breakthrough)
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 12:21 AM |
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maybe Isreal should attack the palestenians like the Americans attacked the natives to the point of where they cant damage a baby, Do you think that would be a good idea?
No, it's a terrible idea! First, it's unworkable. Second, it's inhumane. Third, it would cause a widespread condemnation of Israel worldwide, and might lead to terrorist attacks from other Muslim countries.
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Suicide bombings average one a year now
On the other hand, there are more missle attacks.
Anyway, what is to be done about the Israel-Palestine problem? Is peace in the Middle East possible? I see four possible solutions:
1. Complete military victory by Israel over all Palestinian terrorist groups.
Pros: Would establish Israeli hegemony and end violence.
Cons: How? There's no real way to do this without killing a massive amount of civillians, and that would open up another can of worms.
2. Have every last Jew leave Israel, and give all of it back to the Palestinians.
Pros: Would give Palestinians their territory back, thus ending violence.
Cons: Would force numerous innocent Israelis to leave their homes, and would burden other countries with evacuees.
3. Partition. Form a Palestinian state out of Gaza and the West Bank.
Pros: Everyone gets their own country.
Cons: Palestinians still don't have territory they want. Gaza and West Bank under different and hostile (to each other) governments. A Palestinian demagogue could make a lot out of trying to make Gaza and the West Bank contigious.
4. My suggestion:
1. Announce that the creation of Israel was a mistake, but that forcing the Israelis to leave would be another mistake.
2. Secularize Israel.
3. Give more funds to education and infrastructure in Palestinian areas.
4. Encourage foreign investment in Palestinian areas.
5. After a while, the standard of living in Palestinian areas will go up, thus making unification workable.
On another note:
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@MVassilev, dude do you even notice that you argue about stuff more than anyone else? People actually try to talk and explain themselves to you but it's like talking to a log.
Wouldn't hurt you to learn something new for a change without imposing your wrong minor knowledge.
Please don't troll in my threads. Thank you.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted April 16, 2008 01:34 AM |
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No, it's a terrible idea! First, it's unworkable. Second, it's inhumane. Third, it would cause a widespread condemnation of Israel worldwide, and might lead to terrorist attacks from other Muslim countries.
But wed jsut be following good old americas example, Whcih to ntoe hasnt given native americans much except lands they can build casinos on. Thats why your argument is contradictory really. Why not go through your steps and replace Isreal with America and Palestenians with Native Aemricans.
Btw you simply cannot encoruage foreign investment in a bunch of people who have very few people with any workable skills, And considerign that education in Isreal is very weak in itself, the last thing Isreal has to worry about is using its system in the palestenians areas.
Secularizing Isreal is impossible due to democracy itself, There are many religous parties, and removing them would destroy the democracy in Isreal.
I dont think palestenians want standard of living . After the jews left the gaza strip a lot of old homes with technology and water and electricity were abondoend and taken over, But the palestenians werent very thankful for it. In fact they pretty much were the same except for the idea that they profited because they drove the jews out of the gaza strip.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 01:36 AM |
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"We"? Who are "we"? The Jews? The Arabs? The Jews would live in Europe, and would have been prospering just as well in Western Europe (and not getting blown up by terrorists, either!). The Arabs were poor then and are still poor now.
You want the Jews to live in Europe? 
9 out of the 10 brothers and sisters my great grandfather had were killed in Poland. He was the only when who went to Israel, and that's the only reason I'm here today to tell you about it. So you're telling me he should have stayed in Europe?
I had neighbors that survived the holocaust, and decided to stay in Poland after the war. The woman gave a birth, and the baby was choked to death by the nurse, 10 minutes after he borned. After that had happened, they moved to Israel, and the woman lives until today not far away from me. They have never had children.
And you still cannot see why do we need our own country?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 02:48 AM |
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Why not go through your steps and replace Isreal with America and Palestenians with Native Aemricans.
Because Native Americans aren't trying to kill Americans.
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you simply cannot encoruage foreign investment in a bunch of people who have very few people with any workable skills
They could manufacture stuff.
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And considerign that education in Isreal is very weak in itself, the last thing Isreal has to worry about is using its system in the palestenians areas.
Well, education is a good place to start, then, in the search for peace.
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Secularizing Isreal is impossible due to democracy itself
So Israel wants to remain a theocracy.
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I dont think palestenians want standard of living .
Everybody except for anarcho-primitivists want a good standard of living.
Genielord: Well, that's an oppressive regime with ignorant people. But the Jews in Western Europe were fine (after the effects of the Holocaust ended). But imagine what would happen if every ethnic group would want their own country!
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 06:14 AM |
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Genielord: Well, that's an oppressive regime with ignorant people. But the Jews in Western Europe were fine (after the effects of the Holocaust ended). But imagine what would happen if every ethnic group would want their own country!
There would be 18 millions of Jews in the world today, if the 6 millions weren't killed in the holocaust. This isn't another "ethnic group". And after Israel was created, why should people stay in Europe, where they are hated, when the world offers them their own country? That would be a stupid thing to do. People sometimes gave up all what they have to get to Israel.
Pinhas Zilberman, my great grandfather, said once:
"I prefer to eat dry bread and oranges in the land of Israel, than to live as rich where I'm hated"
Please try to understand the situation of being hated. Simply hated. Not because something you have done, or because you are a bad person, just because of who you are.
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The Jews passed the most horrible crime of the humanity.
In Treblinka, one of the 6 big extermination camps, there is this stone. In seven languages, it's written on:
"Keinmal Ma'ar!"
"Nikorda Bolishe!"
"Jamais Plus!"
"Nie Wieder!"
"Nigdy Wiecej!"
"Lo Od!"
"Never Again!"
This is another goal of Israel: to make sure that such of a thing will never happen again. Never again.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted April 16, 2008 08:23 AM |
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In Antwerp, where I live, there is a Jewish population. Not only the orthodox ones, as we call them, but also Jews who look like and live us Catholics. They only differ from us by name and religion (a very small difference IMHO). There is some anti-semitic violence vs the Orthodox Jews (because people can see that they're Jewish). People blame the local conservative party (which is known for it's radical foreign integration policy) and marked it as fascist. NOT TRUE ! My parents vote for this party; are they fascists ? Am I a child of fascist scum? NONSENCE !
The one that are to blame are not the Catholic "fascists" (Fascists are Atheļsts btw), but (this sounds a bit cruel) the muslim teenagers who constantly hang around the district were I live. About 80% of anti-semitism vs Jews in Belgium (and 90% in Antwerp) comes from the muslim population (and they are NOT terrorists)
What is this anti-Semitism ? They throw rocks at Jews, call names, but twice a year a Jews gets beaten into hospital. The perpetrators are taken into custody, were their are recognised as muslims and their only punished mildly (There is a commitee in Belgium the prohibits so-called rascist violence, but quizzically stays to forget that not only Cacasians, but Arabs, Semites, Negroļds, Gypsies all can be rascist as well). The offenders are seem on TV talking about their punishment and showing remourse and the walk away with an isuffereable smirk on their face. If their aren't Belgians that is. If their were Belgians, (especially if their voted for the so-called anti-semite party) they woould be sentenced to at least 5 years in prison
THIS IS INJUSTICE HAPPENING IN A DEMOCRATIC EUROPEAN COUNTRY !!!!
GL, Stay in Israel, because what happens here also happens in other European countries; Anti-semitism is still booming sadly, wether preformed by arabs (like in Belgium, the Uk and France) or by the locals ( Eastern Europe). You'll be the safest if you move to the USA/Canada, Australia/New Zealand or tho south East Asia, which is still untouched by anti-semitism
I Still hope no one is offended
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 08:28 AM |
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GL, Stay in Israel, because what happens here also happens in other European countries; Anti-semitism is still booming sadly, wether preformed by arabs (like in Belgium, the Uk and France) or by the locals ( Eastern Europe). You'll be the safest if you move to the USA/Canada, Australia/New Zealand or tho south East Asia, which is still untouched by anti-semitism
I will never leave Israel. I'm a Zionist. I prefer to die than to abandon my nation and my believes.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted April 16, 2008 10:11 AM |
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Good for you, I feel the same for Poland (but I must admit I'd prefer pre-WWII territory, but it's, unfortunatelly, non-feasible to recover it by peaceful means now).
But could you please, GL, not blame whole nation of Poland for a single child of your neighbour and some others? Is it only me or Jews find it easy to remember abour Poles' antisemitism but easily forget about thousands of Jews we saved during WWII, sometimes at the cost of our lives ?
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 10:14 AM |
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But could you please, GL, not blame whole nation of Poland for a single child of your neighbour and some others? Is it only me or Jews find it easy to remember abour Poles' antisemitism but easily forget about thousands of Jews we saved during WWII, sometimes at the cost of our lives ?
Oh, I'm sorry if I generalized and blamed the polish people.  I'm really sorry that it came out that way, it wasn't my intention at all.
I meant only to the anti-semetic people that live in the Europian society, not to the Polish nation.
I'm a half Polish as well, by the way. 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 16, 2008 01:57 PM |
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GenieLord:
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And after Israel was created, why should people stay in Europe, where they are hated, when the world offers them their own country?
Because in many parts of Europe, Jews were treated just fine.
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This is another goal of Israel: to make sure that such of a thing will never happen again. Never again.
Thankfully, stuff like the Holocaust doesn't happen often. In fact, in all of history, it has only happened once. So it's wrong to say that the creation of Israel has anything to do with it.
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You'll be the safest if you move to the USA/Canada, Australia/New Zealand or tho south East Asia, which is still untouched by anti-semitism
This.
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I will never leave Israel. I'm a Zionist. I prefer to die than to abandon my nation and my believes.
Nationalist. Nationalism is an extremely foolish belief.
Lexxan:
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Fascists are Atheļsts btw
Not necessarily. There can be religious Fascism.
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About 80% of anti-semitism vs Jews in Belgium (and 90% in Antwerp) comes from the muslim population (and they are NOT terrorists)
This is what happens when you have a bad immigration policy that lets just about anybody in. Note that immediately after WWII, though, Europe didn't have much of aa Muslim population.
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