|
| Thread: The Mvass plan for fixing America |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
posted February 20, 2008 05:28 PM |
|
|
I met harmed, not killed. If I had intended it to be read killed, I would have written it that way. Actually, it doesn't even matter. A criminal's rights should never outweigh the rights of the victim. The criminal chooses to break the law. He chooses to create the dangerous situation. He chooses to put himself in a situation where the victim feels threatend. He intends to do harm to the victim. Why should the innocent victim be peanlized for the actions of a criminal?
And yes, I do value property and personal security over the life of someone who willingly breaks the law to harm innocent victims. If a criminal is killed while breaking into someone's home, it doesn't bother me a bit. That's one less criminal in the world.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 05:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
@TheDeath or Azagal. You really think that creationism should be taught to children at schools in a similar manner that evolution is?
Yes, but the students should choose if they want either  (ofc I'm not talking about elementary school)
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:11 PM |
|
Edited by Binabik at 21:13, 20 Feb 2008.
|
I don't want to spend much time on this at the moment, but I need to nip something in the bud.
Quote:
Binabiks response: give the students more guns to protect themselves.
I find this ludicrous. Why don't we just give everyone in every college a gun and make it last man standing?
Ban guns. It works; just take a look outside.
Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said, nor even implied. And I wish you would delete it. Someone else already referenced it as if I really said something like that.
For the record, no I do NOT think students should be carrying guns to school.
I really didn't want to get into a gun control debate to start with. I merely asked Mvass how he planned to enforce such a law. Simply passing a law stating that guns are illegal and everyone should turn them in just plain won't work.
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:20 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why is Marihujana more of a crime than high percentaged alcohol is?
Well as far as I know, drinks with extremely high percentages of alcohol (like Absinthe) are illegal in most countries. The thing is, you can drink a glass of whiskey without getting dead drunk (for the taste of it), but you can't blow a joint without getting high.
But I wasn't talking marijuana here, I don't have too much of a problem with it (it doesn't make people dangerous, isn't SO MUCH destructive for the brain and can even be used to ease the pain, in medical purposes, though rarely). But it's chemicals - like ecstasy, speed, LSD - and of course stronger drugs, like crack, cocaine etc that I object to.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:34 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I think everyone should be as free as possible, to choose what he wants to learn.
Education isn't about choices.
Quote:
So you're really not totally against patriotism, eh?
Once China gets powerful enough, it won't need to worry about us, and we will have no leverage on it.
Quote:
Actually I have to agree with Binabik here. Having the 'federal' power to make up decisions for the education is simply a way to force people to 'think' like the government want them to -- and often that's not good at all.
And having the states control education would make people think like the state government wants them to. So? How are the states any better than the federal government?
Quote:
It's not your right to take his life -- that makes the criminal have that right too?
The social contract gives society the power to punish those who harm it.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:42 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Education isn't about choices.
Then what, is it about indoctrination? Why scientific and not religious indoctrination then? Your answer will be purely subjective, and it works both ways.
Quote:
And having the states control education would make people think like the state government wants them to. So? How are the states any better than the federal government?
They aren't any better, but perhaps I wasn't clear (my bad). I said that no government (including state ones) should force any people of the education program. It should rather be more "open" so to speak -- I mean, students should think for themselves and see for themselves. The education program, of course, has to have a system, a very big one actually, but students do not necessarily have to learn everything (unless they want to); but rather they should receive some kind of "description" of each class and take the ones they find appropiate.
Quote:
The social contract gives society the power to punish those who harm it.
That's how you write this 'contract', but of course it is not given by God (or by the Big Bang) and is made up by humans. I think that, if you have the right to take a criminal's life, then he should also have the right to take someone's life too. And I don't think that's a good 'right' 
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:52 PM |
|
|
TheDeath... What level of education are you talking about? It is very confusing... And what exactly should be chosen from, should there be nothing compulsory?
I am totally with mvassilev on this one... Or maybe I donīt juts understand your point of "choise".
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:56 PM |
|
|
Deep plan mvass, mine is sort of economic but I have a ton of ideas myself, but I dont think anyone really read what I already wrote anyways so I wont write anything else here.
____________
What are you up to
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 09:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Then what, is it about indoctrination?
It is about giving people skills to do jobs and to teach them how to reason.
Quote:
It should rather be more "open" so to speak -- I mean, students should think for themselves and see for themselves.
Before people can think for themselves they have to learn to think for themselves. And if they can't think for themselves, how can they choose how to learn to think for themselves?
Quote:
they should receive some kind of "description" of each class and take the ones they find appropiate.
That's the way it is right now. There are some mandatory classes and many electives.
Quote:
That's how you write this 'contract', but of course it is not given by God (or by the Big Bang) and is made up by humans. I think that, if you have the right to take a criminal's life, then he should also have the right to take someone's life too.
No. There are some circumstances in which we have the right to take someone's life (to punish them for a crime, or euthanasia) and there are many circumstances in which we don't.
Quote:
And I don't think that's a good 'right'.
To use your favorite argument, "It's subjective."
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 10:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Before people can think for themselves they have to learn to think for themselves. And if they can't think for themselves, how can they choose how to learn to think for themselves?
That is a lesson not taught by school, but rather by experience and parents -- that's why people don't enter high-school at the age of 8!
Quote:
That's the way it is right now. There are some mandatory classes and many electives.
That's the problem, with the mandatory classes. Sure thing, learning the English "language" should be mandatory, but there's also literature, not to mention other mandatory classes. Of course, people interested (and they should be) could go on and grasp it, but like I said, forcing someone to learn something is not going to put it into his brain unless he/she's willing to comprehend it himself/herself (and get a clear image in thoughts).
Quote:
To use your favorite argument, "It's subjective."
Sure it is, much like the social contract. What I'm getting at is that the people who define the "rights" should see both ways -- even from the criminal perspective. Of course, this is subjective too, since it's my opinion, but then if you are going to kill a criminal for killing, how does that make you any better?
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 10:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That is a lesson not taught by school, but rather by experience and parents -- that's why people don't enter high-school at the age of 8!
But many parents are completely incompetent.
Quote:
Sure thing, learning the English "language" should be mandatory, but there's also literature, not to mention other mandatory classes.
People also have to learn science and math.
Quote:
Of course, this is subjective too, since it's my opinion, but then if you are going to kill a criminal for killing, how does that make you any better?
Because your both your reasons for killing and what you are trying to achieve are far different than the criminal's intent. You kill him for two reasons, to punish him, and to discourage others from following his example.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 10:21 PM |
|
|
Quote:
But it's chemicals - like ecstasy, speed, LSD - and of course stronger drugs, like crack, cocaine etc that I object to.
I'm just curious. If I'm reading this correctly, the implication is that cocaine is a "strong" drug and LSD is not????? Maybe something has dramatically changed over the years, but I would call cocaine the weakest drug there is, and LSD ***BY FAR*** the strongest drug.
____________
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted February 20, 2008 10:25 PM |
|
|
Quote:
But many parents are completely incompetent.
They should go to orphanage or something, or perhaps elementary school should teach this (apart from the usual arithmetic and language).
Quote:
People also have to learn science and math.
If by math you mean arithmetic and basic operations, then yes, it's very basic and needed. However, if you mean calculus, algebra or analytic geometry, then I think that should be left to the student to decide
Quote:
You kill him for two reasons, to punish him, and to discourage others from following his example.
So then, why not torture him (having fun in the way too) to 'discourage others'? Unless of course you think this is a good thing... 
This punishment is based on your own ideas for it, how "bad" you want it to be. But you should not fight him with the same weapon he fights (i.e kill)
|
|
roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 01:01 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Israel-Palestine: Slowly reduce aid to Israel, while building better relations with moderate Palestinians.
Palestenians recieve equal if not more aid then isreal does , Very few leading moderate palestenians who have influence and even if you built up relations for them it would be pretty much worthless and would take decades as they hate america.
Better to stop funding altogether for everyone at that.
Quote:
Education: Put more money into the system. Scrap No Child Left Behind. Focus more on gifted/advanced students. Shorten school day and school year. School is mostly government day care. Therefore, if both parents are working at the time the child would come home from the shortened school day, offer a tax break if they would send their child to actual government day care, up to the age of 13. But don't make it compulsory.
Cant believe the focus on the gifted children mentality though? What do gifted children need? They basically have the tools they need to do well in society by grade 7 . Its the less advanced ones you need to focus on to help them become more productive.
I agree with shortening school day if the gifted students are actually focused on, but i dont actually agree with the first thing. at least a third of the time in school is used to exert discipline by teachers. I agree a extremely long school day doesnt really help much if the school students are disciplined though . I think a program to try and better skill the talented students should be initiatiated by grade 6 or so , the less skilled ones stay until grade 12.
PS: its not that your ideas are bad mvsalliev. But you never mention the logistics of doing what you do or the consoquences. imagine telling people their child is worse then everyone else so theyre not being focused on at school! Or telling people drugs are legal after all these years. Not to mention cheap drugs on the street would still likely be avilalble.
____________
"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 01:05 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm just curious. If I'm reading this correctly, the implication is that cocaine is a "strong" drug and LSD is not????? Maybe something has dramatically changed over the years, but I would call cocaine the weakest drug there is, and LSD ***BY FAR*** the strongest drug.
Well I put it wrongly. I meant "stronger drugs" as in "stronger non-chemical drugs". Since I already mentioned chemical ones before that. LSD is both a chemical and a stronger drug.
And cocaine is far from the weakest drug there is... At least IMO. Though I wouldn't really know for sure, since I've never tried it.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 01:46 AM |
|
|
Quote:
or perhaps elementary school should teach this
But aren't you worried that they'll indoctrinate the children? 
Quote:
However, if you mean calculus, algebra or analytic geometry
Everyone should know at least algebra.
Quote:
So then, why not torture him (having fun in the way too) to 'discourage others'?
Because that's cruel and unusual punishment. And you would indeed be a twisted individual if you found it fun.
Quote:
even if you built up relations for them it would be pretty much worthless and would take decades as they hate america
They wouldn't hate us if we changed our foreign policy.
Quote:
What do gifted children need?
A good education. They benefit from it more than struggling children.
Quote:
They basically have the tools they need to do well in society by grade 7.
Lol, just lol. They may be gifted, but they're children.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 02:50 AM |
|
Edited by Moonlith at 03:09, 21 Feb 2008.
|
Quote:
Imagine your kid turning a TV on and seeing drug commercials...
"Sponsored by McRasta - higher than high!"
"Exy - ecstasy with style!"
"You don't rust with Angel Dust!"
I mean, for chrissakes man.
Going by that logic, we can legalize theft, too. There will always be a lot of it - so why not tax it? That way money doesn't go to criminal rings, but to the government.
And murder, while we're at it. You could have hitmen in the yellow pages... "George Peterson, professional hired killer. 20% discount for every third victim!"
Oh, or child prostitution? "Good-quality children for every self-respecting pedophile!" You could have ads with Michael Jackson and stuff...
Dude, are you SERIOUSLY comparing soft drugs to child prostitution now?
Quote:
My point still stands. Is it alright to legalize crimes and simply put high taxes on them?
Your point doesn't stand at all because you define "soft drugs" as a crime, while it is only a CURRENT law that defines soft drugs as illegal. That doesn't mean the act itself is bad. (mind you I'm not saying soft drugs are "good", but if they are to be labelled a crime, then so should alcohol be). I've had experience with mirhiuana, and it makes one less dangerous than one who's drunk.
@ Omegadestroyer: It's good and refreshing to see people favouring and promoting a wild wild west society! 
|
|
OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 05:01 AM |
|
|
And how exactly am I promoting a Wild West society Moonlith?
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
|
|
roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 07:51 AM |
|
|
Yeah i misphrased that . I mean that gifted children by grade 7 will be at the same level in terms of mental abilities and (likely) comprehension of the world and therefore non-physically related abilities in society as less gifted ones when they get past college.
Theres too few truly gifted people as there is though , makes no point to focus on them . Well depends how you define gifted really. I mean it makes sense to dump someones whos hopeless. but theres a lot there thats just under-average fodder that probably should be improved by a better education
____________
"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 21, 2008 09:39 AM |
|
Edited by Minion at 09:40, 21 Feb 2008.
|
Quote:
give everyone a firearm... I do value property and personal security over the life of someone who willingly breaks the law to harm innocent victims... If a criminal is killed while breaking into someone's home, it doesn't bother me a bit... That's one less criminal in the world
I have no idea where Moonlith might have gotten that impression... 
|
| |
|
|
