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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 09:02 AM |
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Quote:
Hmmm.... so please explain.. cause I am apparantly a big time newbie. I enter battle with ONLY 2 Vampires... now lets assume none of the dragons can reach me turn 1, when they do get to me turn 2.. they will hit me once and i will be dead. So even if I had unlimited raise dead mana... how do I keep the 2 vampires alive?? Sorry but I must be the dumbest Lord in TOH.
For necro/academy
Conjure phoenix, then dark magic. I'm not sure about vampire lords method, but only need some spectres, and the phoenix will do the job. Had a game lately with academy, on day 16, havez took down 91 black dragons with only phoenix+regen.
For sylvan
Everytime arcane archer shoots, its like an empowered implosion
For orcs/haven
A game yesterday with flaming ballista with orcs, took utopia with 1 cyclop and 6 globin , haven will do the same with around 2 angels and regen
Now what does fortress have ? 
any advice ?
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 10:12 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 10:14, 28 Mar 2008.
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Taking Utopia with necro, with 2 vampires (or skeletons, or ghosts or bullsnow): Last stand + Puppet + Pheonix. Diegis, fyi, i do play other factions too. In case you didnt know, magic factions dont fight with army.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 11:09 AM |
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Quote:
I am not going to have anymore games against those stalkers: the win precent against them is very low, in my case...dont know others.
When you break the hg garrison as orc without enlightenment and/or warmachines, and loose like 90% of you army, its understandable. Plus, dark magic vs them is 100% win.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 11:53 AM |
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Quote:
This way all races will have roughly the same prerequisits as Demons has now. Flaming Arrows still will be fairly easy to get, if somebody would be really determined to do it (only 3 skills involved). Yet getting to Tripple Ballista and Flaming Arrows will eat away lots of starting levelups + will force to give up Tactics and Power of Speed perks.
Although, of course, it is not a compromise between all completely different opinions. Yet its the best I can think up to make everyone more or less happy. 
Hmm, this might be a way, although I'm promoting a harder way to reach Flaming arrows. For instance, in russian mod what they have tested for hundreds of hours, there are maniac prerequisites (for orcs - Mighty Shout for Flaming and Vitality for Triple, etc). IMO that's way overboard yet I also keep in mind that there must be a reason why the whole russian community uses this mod already for several months.
So on one side there is the russian mod, on other side Zilonite's mild version and my suggestions in the middle. A well perceivable example is what you really get with this cute perk - triple ballista that kills 1 dragon will kill 3 dragons if Flaming arrows are present.
I like the way this discussion is developing. Follow the example, and make your own suggestions instead of constant criticism (there are great deal of posts whose value added is close to zero).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 28, 2008 12:50 PM |
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Nice suggestion  If flaming arrows is easy to get then at least triple ballista should be a little harder. As for the Russian prerequisites it seems totally out of touch or a tool only available in maps filled with witch huts.. Skills that boost greatly earlygame with 2% chance to get are unbalanced by nature - that's a silly dice roll.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 01:12 PM |
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1. I'm disagree for down Stalkers initiative 9 and Invisibility for 2 turn duration.
Lets see what options for play/creep have warlock?
Want or not you need to get destructive spels almost every game. On low lvls your mana is out after 2-3 spels so you can't make so many battles with it. Blood Fury is very efective (but need 1st to upgrade and you will have 10-15 week 1)for kill slow creatures...but only 1 mistake and you will loss them all. Blood Fury can't fight vs any shoter. Warlock can sacrafise Minotaur and use spels vs shoters...but after few battles will loss all Minotaur. So early on game Warlock cant creep so powerful. Later in game vs strong guard what he can use? He is no't Resurrection/Vampirism in his magic guild.
Not strong shoters (Assassins doing so low dmg on shots and Shadows will be so low numbers). If any high lvl unit hit Blood Fury they will die all. Raiders and Hidra are "large creatures" so will get hit 1st turn. Warlock up main Attack, have low defence and any hit on him is = decent losses. Warlock have less ability for creep from all races in HoF. All what they get in ToTe is new stalkers. Yes they are hot...and very useful...but 1st week mana is so low. You can do 1-2 battles vs shoters and after it no mana. Later in game you can use them alot more efective vs big guard...but are its bad? For example Sylvan can get utopia with 60-70 elfs and x6 Sprite (have other way in ToTe too). Its might race and need so low army to get utopia. Warlock will need decent spelpower+spels(you need high lvl spels...so need build magic guild loss resureces/time) to can do it with Stalkers. What wrong here?
Have battles vs very big guard where Stalkers can abuse game...but its not every battles and later in game when all races have power to kill big guard with almost zero losses. Down Invisibility to 2 turns duration is enough for me.
2. For Divine Vengeance i'm agree its need be less powerful.
3. I dont see how Flaming arrows kill balance in game? For begining its not efective if you dont have War Machines. So for both skills you need ~10 lvls. But normal you will not get on lvl 10 only this skills. If game offer you other useful skill you can get him too so under 13-15lvl you will not have expert War Machines+First Aid+triple balista+Flaming arrows. If your hero start with attakc or War Machines he can get its early(7-8lvl)...but no't every game.
Races what use main War Machines is Barbarian/Demon lord/Knight/Runemage.
Barbarian don't have any spels. Maps with 1 town have have so low rage all game. On 1st week he cant use Pile of Skulls so his rage is almost zero. Only his lvl 2 is good for creep but he is "large" so hard for protect. This race realy need War Machines to can creep and Stunning Blow+Excruciating Strike are very strong combo vs high lvl creatures. So if you go for Flaming arrows you will loss another very good combo...and orc with his crazy attack no need so mcuh Flaming arrows.
Demon have alot reqest for get Flaming arrows.
Knight is very hard for creep early on game. His low lvl units have so low ini. If you dont have War Machines...have big chance to cant kill most guards week 1...so knight realy need War Machines early on game. He is up main defence and low knolege...so his balista doing very low dmg...Flaming arrows improve situaion...not kill balance. From other side, later in game after build high lvls unit Knight realy no need War Machines...Retribution will be alot better from Flaming arrows too. So if you can not waste skills for War Machines+Flaming arrows your hero will be alot more strong later in game.
Runemage is hard for start but can creep from begining. Later in game War Machines will be totaly useless for him...he need other skills.
So if he go after War Machines+Flaming arrows he will have more easy creep in begining (week 1-2) and not so good skill for later.
From other races only Wizard have idea to use War Machines...but his chance for attack is 2%...so he can not get Flaming arrows all game.
Yes, Flaming arrows is powerful...but only if you get War Machines...and only few races use it-->Barbarian/Demon lord/Knight. All this races have very bad creep ability early on game...so War Machines+Flaming arrows give them chance for creep like other races.
Sylvan can creep incredible good from begining and he dont need War Machines or Flaming arrows for this...no waste skills. His ini is deadly in final battle and his new ToTe Arcane archers/High Druid/Pristine Unicorn are so good.
Wizard and Necromancer can creep well from begining and not use War Machines+Flaming arrows.
So tell me one good reason WHY WE NEED TO MAKE RACES WITH LESS ABILITY FOR CREEP MORE WEAK?
4. Warpath bonus is realy so big. Change to 120 look ok for me.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 28, 2008 01:20 PM |
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That said maps always play a good role on how fast a faction can break. For instance dungeon can't just attack dragon hill's garrison with stalkers since they are controlled by the opponent and can avoid firewalls etc. If people are so afraid of this tactic then why not just modify the maps' garrisons so as to be enemy controlled?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 04:55 PM |
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Quote:
So tell me one good reason WHY WE NEED TO MAKE RACES WITH LESS ABILITY FOR CREEP MORE WEAK?
I find several flaws in this reasoning concerning Flaming arrows:
1. In HOF magic and might races were balanced pretty well. With easy access to Flaming arrows mainly for might factions this balance is in peril.
2. On most maps you achieve ~12 lvl around day 10. At this stage having Flaming turns creeping from normal to overpowered. Suddenly might factions can walk around with 1 cyclop and clear utopia etc.
3. Even in final battle on many maps, having Flaming arrows is great advantage. You can estimate how big army could be gathered on week 4-5 (usual final time). On one town maps it often takes more than 1 hit to take down ballista. Besides, having opponent spent his power shots on ballista might be big enough gain! Not even worth mentioning cases (quite often) when you cannot even take it down... Ballista with Flaming is like 3 stacks with your lvl 7 units in terms of damage. In other words, forget your Hourglass and look around heroes world - another unit with 1100 hp and huge power is quite hard to neutralize one MANY maps (ask Jinxer if he had any chance to kill that monster in our game week 6 final).
4. Don't forget that we are not trying to ban Flaming arrows but to make it only harder to reach!
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 28, 2008 05:00 PM |
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Edited by diegis at 17:01, 28 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
When you break the hg garrison as orc without enlightenment and/or warmachines, and loose like 90% of you army, its understandable. Plus, dark magic vs them is 100% win.
are you talking about that game I won with orcs vs u? or may be the latest game we had?...aaah, i understand now, ur so funny...
____________
dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2008 06:03 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
So tell me one good reason WHY WE NEED TO MAKE RACES WITH LESS ABILITY FOR CREEP MORE WEAK?
I find several flaws in this reasoning concerning Flaming arrows:
1. In HOF magic and might races were balanced pretty well. With easy access to Flaming arrows mainly for might factions this balance is in peril.
2. On most maps you achieve ~12 lvl around day 10. At this stage having Flaming turns creeping from normal to overpowered. Suddenly might factions can walk around with 1 cyclop and clear utopia etc.
3. Even in final battle on many maps, having Flaming arrows is great advantage. You can estimate how big army could be gathered on week 4-5 (usual final time). On one town maps it often takes more than 1 hit to take down ballista. Besides, having opponent spent his power shots on ballista might be big enough gain! Not even worth mentioning cases (quite often) when you cannot even take it down... Ballista with Flaming is like 3 stacks with your lvl 7 units in terms of damage. In other words, forget your Hourglass and look around heroes world - another unit with 1100 hp and huge power is quite hard to neutralize one MANY maps (ask Jinxer if he had any chance to kill that monster in our game week 6 final).
4. Don't forget that we are not trying to ban Flaming arrows but to make it only harder to reach!
1.Might get from ToTe -->Flaming arrows+triple balista, Magic get -->Regeneration+Vampirism+Arcane Crystal+Blade Barrier+Summon Hive All this spels are incredible useful for creeping (we have all old good spels too)early and later in game...now add Fire warriors or Ignate... alot other skills too.
Are you serius think Flaming arrows kill balance and Magic faction are so weak with all this new spels?
2. On most map Knigh/Demon/Barbarian cant do lvl 12 for 10 days if they dont have War machines+Firts Aid+Balista....from begining. Flaming arrows not change much here.
3. In final battle diferent Magic races have diferent way for fight vs War Machines+Flaming arrows.
Example 1: Warlock can get Swif Mind and cast 1st turn Meteor Shower on Balista and all other creatures around....so all your Might power will gone 
Example 2:Wizard can use his Gremlin Saboteurs for sabotage balista befor shot.
It's not so hard to find way for fight if you understand how game work
4. Making Flaming arrows more hard for get... Will not change any for Magic faction because they are not use it...But will down Might ability for creeping.
Might have 1 way for creeping...Magic have other. If you make Flaming arrows or Triple balista more hard for get...you will broke balance for all might faction vs magic.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 07:36 AM |
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1. Diminish Stalker invisibility effect.
To reach some sort of consensus I think it would be better to only reduce the invisibility duration to 2 rounds, and not do anything with init, at least not below 11 (which would make it such a small init-change that it is better left undone).
So - Nerf invisibility YES, Reduce init NO
2. Reduce Divine Vengeance damage.
Obviously YES
3. Make Flaming arrows harder to attain.
I am in doubt on this one. Again - to reach a better agreement in the community I think we should leave it out for now - yes it is a gamekiller on small maps like Heritage of Deleb and Dead Mans Lake, but its much, much harder to attain than Stalkers, so I think we should consentrate on the latter.
4. Warpath bonus must be reduced.
Agreed
To sum it up
1. Yes/No
2. Yes
3. Noish
4. Yes
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 29, 2008 08:55 AM |
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Quote:
For necro/academy
Conjure phoenix, then dark magic. ... havez took down 91 black dragons with only phoenix+regen.
With dark on blakie?.hmmm, not sure about that. With light,..oooh yes, I can understand that now..
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
www.cabinet-dentaire-malaunay.fr
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 11:23 AM |
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Quote:
1.Might get from ToTe -->Flaming arrows+triple balista, Magic get -->Regeneration+Vampirism+Arcane Crystal+Blade Barrier+Summon Hive All this spels are incredible useful for creeping (we have all old good spels too)early and later in game...now add Fire warriors or Ignate... alot other skills too.
Are you serius think Flaming arrows kill balance and Magic faction are so weak with all this new spels?
2. On most map Knigh/Demon/Barbarian cant do lvl 12 for 10 days if they dont have War machines+Firts Aid+Balista....from begining. Flaming arrows not change much here.
3. In final battle diferent Magic races have diferent way for fight vs War Machines+Flaming arrows.
Example 1: Warlock can get Swif Mind and cast 1st turn Meteor Shower on Balista and all other creatures around....so all your Might power will gone
Example 2:Wizard can use his Gremlin Saboteurs for sabotage balista befor shot.
It's not so hard to find way for fight if you understand how game work
4. Making Flaming arrows more hard for get... Will not change any for Magic faction because they are not use it...But will down Might ability for creeping.
Might have 1 way for creeping...Magic have other. If you make Flaming arrows or Triple balista more hard for get...you will broke balance for all might faction vs magic.
Yaiks, seems that this demagogy is really getting to other community members  I'll try to explain the huge power of Flaming arrows with vivid examples for the last time:
1. Spells like regeneration and vampirism is available and widely used by magic factions as well (haven, for instance). Putting on the same level spells like hive, crystal with Flaming Arrows is beyond sanity.
2. Already from 1.0 might factions used war machines. That's perfectly fine. AND they got 50% win against magic factions in HOF - that's what I meant by balance. War machines were already a power! To state that Flaming arrows doesn't change much is so ridiculous that there is no need to answer this.
3. Gremlin saboteurs and dungeon swift mind (already big imba on normal maps) are almost the only remedies for ballista in final. But what can do other factions with 4-5 populations of single town?? Even with puppet master, opponents troops are too small to take out 1100 hp of their own ballista.
For instance, in NONE of my last games where I got ballista+Flaming arrows opponents were not able to eliminate it! That's on maps like Dragon Hill, Master of Disguise, Forgotten Kingdoms. Needless, to say that I could have had 3 times less army and still win...
Now, let me illustrate the power of this single perk with pure numbers. I hope it's easy to grasp their magnitude.
Example. Opponent has 20 defence. His Archangels have 51 defence accordingly. Tripple ballista with attack/knowledge 30 and ammo cart will deal 170 dmg total. Now, the same ballista with Flaming arrows will deal 850 dmg. That's 5 times bigger!
I wonder if you can really back up your words, Elit... Play on either of 3 Fiur's maps (not even talking about smaller ones) using Haven, for instance, and show how you will destroy opponent's ballista on week 5.
4. As for creeping, Might factions with w/m AND TROOPS are still very effective. Plus - they have now regeneration, vampirism. They don't need Flaming arrows at all if you ask me. But let it be...just make them harder to attain. I mean - might faction with flaming ballista now looks like some freakin necro, standing with 1 unit in corner and fodders around waiting calmly for ballista (instead of phoenix) to kill everything.
Example. In last 5 games I was able to reach ballista or triple shot + Flaming arrows on days 10-13. When I did - all that's left is to rush fast.
Example. Won't you agree that's it's ridiculous for PURE MIGHT orcs to clear utopia with 1 cyclop + Flamming? Sq79 did this on Dragon Hill...
Bottom line - there is no balance broken if we make Flaming arrows harder to reach! On contrary. For me it more sounds like ppl just love easy creeping with stalkers, flaming arrows and neglect the whole point of the game... it's definetely not about walking around with few units for might factions!
Lastly, easy access to Flaming arrows makes game very UNILATERAL for 4 factions...and boring. As boring as stalkers.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 29, 2008 11:56 AM |
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i will refer only to ballista issue. strider sums it up pretty coherent. flaming eliminates any resources micromanagement in the beginning of the game week 1-2, which are decisive weeks for almost all games. so if he focus on getting ballista , which is not a hard task, easiest for orcs, then why should care if we dont have enough mercury to build paokai, or making any useless upg, which will never compensate the power of those 5 skills, that , in a map with few shrines, can be reached during week 1, then map is just a walk in a park. and this happens while the other, maybe with "unfortunate| alignment, has to take care of resources , to build magic guild , make some upg to really move across the map, forced to find the mines and wasting time to flag them. the other only marches towards him.
and when ure finally happy u got some expertise in one magic school and struggle to level up your magic guild, the opponent, mindless , but very brutal, is knocking at the door presenting his last Panzer model 1100hp, which in rare cases, need to be protected by meatshield in order to survive 2 turns and decide the game. this is happening on hard maps, 1 town, even 2. when early game u cannot fully develop the second in order to gather balancing force to compensate ballista.
pls dotn read this as a whine or frustration for losing against ballista, they are just facts, while stalkers preserve army, ballista add its insane damage to that, in my opinion makes it more dangerous. i wont say its not fun to play with or against it, but its not that good when it could be easily obtain first week, without any "sacrifice" in terms of skills plan.
my suggestion would be to have another skill requirement for flaming arrows, not only w/m and attack. triple ballista is ok enough. besides this will inspire players follow other "ways" than , already by now, "classic" flaming strategy.
this way player will have options :: to go for ballista and aiming for the third skill, even if it fits his plan or not, but forced to do it, or find an alternative strategy which might actualy surprise the opponent. by the time being what can u expect from orcs especially, or other might factions? to not have flaming? hardly.
adding another skill as requirement for flaming will make even native w/m heroes to be removed from the ban list.
have a nice day
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted March 29, 2008 01:20 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 13:24, 29 Mar 2008.
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"" Assassins doing so low dmg on shots ""
Maybe we should look at this from the other side.... Lets lower Stalker invisible to 2 turns/initative 10 AND then increase the attack and damage of Assasins so they will be another option... Make it so assasins are a possible choice for creeping etc. Make Dungeon do conventional fighting like other towns, by giving them a stronger level 1 shooter.
Once upon a time, dungeon used to use Blood Furies and Regen Hydras to clear HUGE battles whil creeping....then the stalkers came out, and made it soooo there was no need to think in battles anymore... Between Regen Hydras - Blood Furies - And Stronger Assasins -- and lower Stalkers... will be a better balance. Just a thought.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 02:27 PM |
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haha, this is good stuff, I am a doubter when it comes to the fiery arrows, so I watch your discussions with a great deal of interest, keep it up I`d say I am 52/48 in favor of adding another perk requirement JUST now.
The issue wont affect my attitude towards the Mod though, with or without an extra perk req the Mod is a good thing.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 02:28 PM |
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Quote:
"" Assassins doing so low dmg on shots ""
Maybe we should look at this from the other side.... Lets lower Stalker invisible to 2 turns/initative 10 AND then increase the attack and damage of Assasins so they will be another option... Make it so assasins are a possible choice for creeping etc. Make Dungeon do conventional fighting like other towns, by giving them a stronger level 1 shooter.
Once upon a time, dungeon used to use Blood Furies and Regen Hydras to clear HUGE battles whil creeping....then the stalkers came out, and made it soooo there was no need to think in battles anymore... Between Regen Hydras - Blood Furies - And Stronger Assasins -- and lower Stalkers... will be a better balance. Just a thought.
Hmmmm .... Maybe we should improve their growth to the same as master gremlims
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 29, 2008 02:47 PM |
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Thing is that stalkers' might capabilities are mostly useful against archers in which case reducing initiative and increasing damage does not help. One stack hits you first and the remainders of your stalkers will be doing a little more damage, nice.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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FoolishMan
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 03:10 PM |
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the problem is that a.i. is very bad and freezes when stalkers go invisible ,so the solution might be 2 turns or like Elvin said on some maps make garrisons controlled by opponent(Hg,Battlezone)without lowering the duration of invisibility
devine vengance - make it little weaker ,although using this spell usually means that you're getting your ass kicked by some mightier (you might have equal army in numbers but against sylvan and barbarian you will not survive for long time)faction ,but it can change the tide to other side
ballista - do not change ,maybe a little for barbarian on huge maps ,but on small not( i know this is not possible but when they get enough rage they are very hard to kill and ballista is also very dangerous in their hand)
warpath - change to somewhere between 100-150 ,but this one can be totally useless skill on some maps
+ sylvan have too big initiative from start so that should be lowered a little
larry fanoga
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 29, 2008 03:16 PM |
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Hmmmm .... Maybe we should improve their growth to the same as master gremlims
______________________________________________________________________
yeah increase the population and then we can do any change.
Why academy and dwarf don't try to play with 11 gremlin and 11 dwarf in a week?
every player will not be happy if 1 gremlin and 1 dwarf die and consider that dungeon don't have light magic like this faction have..
Elit and sq79 and fraudatio are our best player and they speak really searching the balance we should try to follow this suggestion and not follow 2 people only..
this topic is useful but it's not the total communtity i see always the same 7/8 person that write and we can't do any change with this number
I suggest to make a poll more large and vote,all the community should decide not so few people for all and the emperor should have double or triple vote
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