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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Civilian's right to have a weapon.
Thread: Civilian's right to have a weapon. This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
william
william


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Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted April 23, 2008 03:39 AM

But not everyone breaks into someones dwelling with the intent to harm now do they? Some people just want to steal something and there might be people inside the house that they do not know about, so just for some protection, they carry some weapon with them.

Just because someone breaks into someones house doesn't mean they will harm them. They might only want to steal something and just go.
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mamgaeater
mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted April 23, 2008 03:39 AM

Not all crimes are robberies. If someone tries to murder you they can do it fine without a gun.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted April 23, 2008 04:26 AM

Stealing from someone harms them financially.  
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted April 23, 2008 05:38 AM
Edited by Daystar at 05:38, 23 Apr 2008.

Quote:
for hobby like hunting

*cough* hobby like murder *cough*

I feel that people should not be allowed to have hand guns.  Larger guns (at least 3 feet long) are ~alright*** because you can't hide that.  If someone has a long gun you will notice it.  However smaller guns are able to be concealed, which makes them more dangerous.

For home defense, a sword, bat/truncheon, or mace (spray) should be more than enough.  Or, a good lock!


***I say "Alright" because I know that guns are inesscapably part of culture.  I am still against them.

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 23, 2008 06:48 AM

This is a subject I feel to strongly about to continue in this debate.  Personal experiences and other things would keep me from debating this calmly.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted April 23, 2008 06:58 AM

Do we actually need people who burgle and steal in this world? i mean everyone views every human life as precious. But seriously, theres a limit. And many people suffer more from 25 years in jail then death depending on if religion is correct or not.
Anyway, Most people that have a gun have it for self-defense or for the heck of it or for hunting and end up using it to attack someone later for different circumstances (stealing, grudges, Adultery,Insanity, fame craze etc).
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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted April 23, 2008 08:05 AM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 08:15, 23 Apr 2008.

Angelitos point sums up my position better than I could

Quote:
I don't think pepper spray should be legal. It hurts hell. If pepper spray was legal many teenagers would use it on innocent people.

Don't be ridiculous...
Teenagers don't just sit around thinking of new ways to hurt innocent people...

People who do that are called nutcases and you can't label everyone under the age of 20 a nutcase.
Besides, pepper spray is legal in a lot of places and how often do you hear of attacks on innocents with it?
Never, personally.

In some kind of brawl or gang fight is the real time I would have thought it possible and trust me if the guy has any self respect he's not going to go and a pull out a can of pepper spray

It's a much more legitimate way of defending yourself than shooting the person to death.



@OD:
Quote:
No.  I'd be killing an armed criminal who broke into my home with the intent to harm me.

99.99999999% of the time they don't intend to harm you... they just intend to take your TV

Quote:
The criminal isn't armed for self-defense.  They don't have any self-defense when they are breaking into another's dwelling with the intent to harm.  The weapon is used for offense, not self-defense.  

While a murderer or an assassin may, a burglar doesn't carry a gun for offense... A burglar doesn't go through the house and systematically shoot everyone before taking your stuff. The gun, if they have one (which as Angelito pointed out in countries where they are illegal, they almost never do), is only to "defend" themselves from any potential attackers.

So unless the person in question believes themself important enough to have an assassin break into their house...

Quote:

Stealing from someone harms them financially.

... talking about physical harm here...
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted April 23, 2008 02:09 PM

Quote:
Teenagers don't just sit around thinking of new ways to hurt innocent people...
More than you know.

Now, I think that people shouldn't own guns (because it leads to accidents, and they can't really defend themselves with them), but I think that people should have the right to defend themselves if they can.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 23, 2008 02:11 PM

Quote:
While a murderer or an assassin may, a burglar doesn't carry a gun for offense... A burglar doesn't go through the house and systematically shoot everyone before taking your stuff. The gun, if they have one (which as Angelito pointed out in countries where they are illegal, they almost never do), is only to "defend" themselves from any potential attackers.
Hmm, a burglar is most often the one having the 'surprise' because you don't expect him -- that is why, without guns at least, he'll be able to beat you up, even though they want your TV. With guns, he most probably will not shoot by surprise, because he doesn't want to kill you (or does he?).

All of you put so much trust in the police as if someone who steals your TV never can get away.. even if he can, do you find this 'comfortable' or something?

Personally, I would pissed of to have my TV stolen and wait for the police to return it to me -- in one piece if possible

Quote:
So unless the person in question believes themself important enough to have an assassin break into their house...
Or corrupted police/soldiers -- pretty much can get away with anything if you are 'inferior' (not only because of guns btw).

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Orfinn
Orfinn


Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
posted April 23, 2008 02:26 PM
Edited by Orfinn at 14:27, 23 Apr 2008.

Weird noone in the U.S have tried to assassinate Bush, I mean hes the pinnacle of moronity! Aint there any "brave" souls out there?
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Mytical
Mytical


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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 23, 2008 04:31 PM
Edited by Mytical at 16:32, 23 Apr 2008.

If they killed people for being morons, there would be only 1 person alive in the whole world (and only because there would be nobody left to kill them ).  Because the definition of being a moron can vary from person to person.
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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted April 23, 2008 04:41 PM

Quote:
Weird noone in the U.S have tried to assassinate Bush, I mean hes the pinnacle of moronity! Aint there any "brave" souls out there?

Thanks but no thanks.Electric chair isn't my view of heroicity.Beside's, what would it help?Iraq war is done, there is no going back.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted April 23, 2008 09:51 PM

Quote:
Weird noone in the U.S have tried to assassinate Bush, I mean hes the pinnacle of moronity! Aint there any "brave" souls out there?
Think about how this sounds: President Dick Cheney. That thought protects Bush more than the Secret Service ever could.
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted April 23, 2008 11:06 PM

Someone actually DID try to assasinate george bush with a grenade once. Im not surprised noone remembers it though. I think the grenade didnt go off.

Quote:
On May 10, 2005, in Freedom Square, Tbilisi, Georgia, Vladimir Arutyunian threw a live hand grenade toward the podium where Bush was giving a speech and Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili was seated. It landed in the crowd about 65 feet (20 m) from the podium after hitting a girl, but it did not detonate. Arutyunian was arrested in July 2005, confessed, and was convicted and given a life sentence in January 2006.[221]

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted April 28, 2008 11:51 PM

The problem with most people is that they are scared of minor threats that are hyped up by the media, and made to seem bigger.

"Like omfg what do I do when this d00d with a big-ass gun comes and assaults me?"

Well jackass chances are either A) That doesn't happen to you, or B)  you won't even have a CHANCE to use that gun to begin with.

Sheesh, get a grip and start enjoying your life instead of living in constant fear people.

FEAR THIS! FEAR THAT!

ROFL! Seriously.
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Korejora
Korejora

Promising

posted April 29, 2008 02:59 AM

Quote:
I don't think pepper spray should be legal. It hurts hell. If pepper spray was legal many teenagers would use it on innocent people.


It's good if you give people something that just hurts like hell to use on innocent people. My friend was mugged once and they used pepper spray to put him out of it. If they hadn't had pepper spray available, though, they probably would have beaten the **** out of him.

No matter what you let people have to defend themselves, you're giving it to people to attack them in the first place. Better to make it as nonlethal as possible, so that we all run around pissing each other off rather than killing each other.

Of course, a lot more people use it to defend themselves than to mug people. It kind of lends itself to that definition, and the general populace has some difficulties with fixed-function thinking.


Quote:
I feel that people should not be allowed to have hand guns.  Larger guns (at least 3 feet long) are ~alright*** because you can't hide that.  If someone has a long gun you will notice it.  However smaller guns are able to be concealed, which makes them more dangerous.


There are laws in place with this sort of idea, but you also have to keep in mind the people who need to be able to defend themselves from large animals, but that can't safely do so with a large gun like a rifle because they do outdoor work with their hands and can't be carrying such a large weapon at all times - they need to be able to carry a weapon they can draw quickly and easily.

Of course, that's easily solved by granting licenses only to people with just such a job.


Quote:
It's not like a hunting gun can't kill a human...

The loss of recreational hunting as a sport? It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make (as fun as it sounds shooting animals ...nutcase)


While I can certainly appreciate the feeling here, hunting is not purely recreational. Out on the farm, coyotes are a big problem, and dogs and traps only do so much.
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mamgaeater
mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted April 29, 2008 02:59 AM

hunters are a vital part of natural balance. read about it and you will understand. a good chunk of revenue for nature reserves comes from hunters.

Quote:
If you hunt wild animals, you are in a minority of the country's population. And according to the most recent government survey the numbers of hunters have declined steadily for more than 30 years.

Some people may find it ironic that this trend could be bad for the environment, but hunters are among the strongest proponents and financial supporters for protecting and maintaining natural habitats

At approximately five-year intervals since 1955, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has sponsored a survey to assess how involved people are with wildlife. The latest National Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation, taken in 2006 and released in November 2007, provides estimates by category of how many people fish, hunt, and watch wildlife. Wildlife watching includes observing, photographing, and feeding wildlife. The survey also gives information on how much time and money people who are engaged in these activities spend each year.

During 2006, 71 million people watched wildlife one way or another. Almost 30 million people fished. But only 12.5 million hunted. The highest number of U.S. hunters ever recorded was in the mid-1980s, almost 17 million people; about 9 percent of the population. But as the nation's population has grown, the increase in hunters has not kept pace, going from 11 percent in 1960, to 8.3 percent by 1990, to about 6 percent in 2001. The recent survey puts the percentage down further, to 5 percent.

A disturbing trend to hunters is that the actual number of Americans who hunt is declining at an even steeper rate than the percentage.

One explanation is that the number of young people who hunt decreases every year and cannot keep pace with the number of old hunters who quit hunting. This is equivalent to a deer herd having more individuals die or leave the population each year than are added to it. Recruitment is too low to result in a sustainable population.

An additional issue is that as urban areas expand, people are farther removed from habitats where they might conveniently go to hunt. Consequently, hunting advocates diminish in number.

Nonetheless, hunting revenues are substantial. The amount of money paid by hunters in pursuit of their craft was about $23 billion last year. These include economic benefits to communities through the sale of guns, ammunition, and other hunting supplies, plus various travel expenses and accessories.

In addition to local and state taxes that benefit the public, federal excise taxes on hunting equipment contribute directly to the support of land purchases, habitat protection, and wildlife management programs.

In addition, migratory waterfowl hunters are required to purchase a federal Duck Stamp; some of the proceeds go to purchase land for wildlife refuges. Taxes from hunting activities also go for maintaining parks and wildlife refuges, and conducting surveys and research to determine the status of not only game but also some nongame species.

So a decline in hunters means a decline in revenue, some of which is used to benefit natural habitats. The hunting community pays to ensure that wildlife populations of game species are sustainable from one generation to the next, which requires that a diversity of natural habitats be kept intact, unpolluted, and undisturbed. Hunters support these efforts with their attitudes about natural habitats, and with their pocketbooks.

Environmentalists, therefore, should support hunters.

In many states, hunting clubs preserve more natural habitat than do most environmental organizations. The focus of such clubs may be on managing deer, quail, ducks, and other game species, but their role in protecting habitats along with nongame wildlife has become increasingly important. Some hunting clubs are exemplary models of private land ownership helping to preserve natural habitats.

Habitat preservation is critical for all wildlife, not just game species. The major threat to most natural ecosystems and wildlife species today is habitat degradation and destruction. Irresponsible commercial development is a leading culprit when natural habitats are destroyed, then replaced with artificial ones where most native wildlife does poorly.

I don't hunt, but I am sorry to see the steady decline in the number of hunters because it means fewer high-paying participants are working to keep America wild.

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Azagal
Azagal


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Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted April 29, 2008 10:51 AM

Try to look at things this way:

A burglar goes into your house because he wants to rob you. He is armed. You encounter him while he is stealing. You don't have a gun.

What happens? The most likely scenario is that he will threaten you with his gun therefore you will do as he says. He will most likely (99.99999%) then take what he wants with or without your help. You are in no danger as long as you cooperate.

Now same situation the only difference is that you are armed aswell.

What happens? It will end in one person being dead. It doesn't matter whether it's was the evil evil intruder who came with the intent of robbing you whatever the cost, willing to slaughter everyone in the house to obtain your awesome new blueray disc player or the person who suffers from the crime makes it makesno difference.

This example has been brought up before somewhere else by someone (either: yasmiel,Minion or Angelito I'm not sure anymore perhaps TA aswell). But I think it is way too good to not be mentioned here.

I think this argument makes sense thus I don't see how guns are necessary as they only put you and the robber in far greater danger. Which I hope this example shows.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted April 29, 2008 11:06 AM
Edited by Mytical at 11:10, 29 Apr 2008.

Except you are forgetting a few things.

First the issue with weapons is not all about just being robbed.  There are much worse things then being robbed.

Second if you see the intruders face (going back to the robbery issue) he may very well kill you so as not to go to jail.  Even if you don't have a weapon.

Now off the robbery kick (people seem to think it is the only crime).  Not everybody can defend themselves with bare hands.  Some people are pretty much immune to pepper spray, and even some handheld devices like tasers are not always an option.

There is also the fact, as stated, that outlawing guns would only stop law abiding people from having them.  It would not stop people who are willing to break the law.  If they would be willing to carry a weapon AND break the law, most likely they would be less hesitant about killing somebody.

Of course people care about the criminals rights before the victims.  So somebody killed a dozen people, molested children, and who knows what else.  Heaven forbid if they get roughed up while arrested or something.  Lets cry over them being hit as a child instead of mourn the lives of the people who they killed, or the innocence they robbed from somebody.  

Don't know why I am replying.  Won't change anything.  
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted April 29, 2008 11:23 AM

Quote:
First the issue with weapons is not all about just being robbed.  There are much worse things then being robbed.

Of course you are right but this is just an argument which shows how guns are a bad thing in this particular situation.

Quote:
Second if you see the intruders face (going back to the robbery issue) he may very well kill you so as not to go to jail.  Even if you don't have a weapon.

That may be the case. I had asumed that the burglar would be probably prepared for a robbing thus wearing a hod/something. But that may not always be the case. Nevertheless I don't think that he'd kill you. Just because people are criminals it means that their brains don't work (not implying you said that). I would think that a criminal knows that being charged for burglary is better than being charged for murder. Don't you think? Sorry but for me the "he breaks one law so he's willing to kill" argument simply doesn't make sense simple because it's not in the interest of the burglar.

Quote:
Now off the robbery kick (people seem to think it is the only crime).  Not everybody can defend themselves with bare hands.  Some people are pretty much immune to pepper spray, and even some handheld devices like tasers are not always an option.

Sorry if it didn't get quite clear in the example but the thing is that you shouldn't assult the intruder with anything but simply cooperate. Then there will be noone dead (unlike if you were armed).

Quote:
If they would be willing to carry a weapon AND break the law, most likely they would be less hesitant about killing somebody.

Of course I can't say you're wrong (just as much as you can't say you're right btw) but again it's irational/stupid/selfharming for the criminal to kill. And I don't think criminals are that stupid. They know that if they kill someone they are most likely (depending on the actual crime)in far greater trouble than for the crime they actually comitted.

Quote:
Of course people care about the criminals rights before the victims.  So somebody killed a dozen people, molested children, and who knows what else.  Heaven forbid if they get roughed up while arrested or something.  Lets cry over them being hit as a child instead of mourn the lives of the people who they killed, or the innocence they robbed from somebody.

Sorry but I think you are exagerating.
1. Two wrongs don't make a right therefore it is wrong to treat the criminal in an unjust way no matter what he did. We have the law to punish him for what he did.
2. Perhaps I misunderstood you but I don't think that there a people protecting criminals like you described because they don't care what they did but because what I stated in "1.". You can still despise and hate the criminal all you want it doesn't change the fact that if you treat him wrong that's wrong.
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