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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Races vs. Themes
Thread: Races vs. Themes This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted July 01, 2008 09:48 PM

Interview

See the question before the last one. It doesn't say anything about angels being cyborgs though (it was a thread in here but i can't find it):

Quote:
Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism. If you disagree, your reasoning is emotional, not logical. Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons. If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.


I'll keep searching and notify if I find it.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 01, 2008 09:51 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 21:55, 01 Jul 2008.

Exactly.  There is no source for this info: hence, it isn't factual whatsoever.  In fact, I'm the one who was spouting on about it months ago, and from Heroes IV's Haven campaign I've discovered that I was incorrect.

So let's go back to discussing what exactly is so lame about the Heroes III story, if anything
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 01, 2008 09:54 PM

Woah ... this thread is moving along since this morning!
I have to dig back a bit and just adress one thing here:

Quote:
............... Ok this is a game with mythical creatures. Creatures are not childish.  And this is not Medal of Honor.  Let me post this for you one more time.

Quote:
Haven doesn't count.  Humans are not mythical creatures.  The castle has a theme, it is holy/medieval.



Ok, this for me underscores a very crucial part: The "Haven is different" mantra. Personally, I don't agree, I don't think Haven is different, but that's a bit besides the point, one view is as good as the other, but there are two very different views here:

1) One group - and that's basically us who favor the "race" thing - consider this in terms of societies and "culture", as Death very well put it. I can speculate that this group has an overrepresentation of people who have read a lot of fantasy literature (like myself), but that's pure speculation. The point is, that this group ranks the Humanoids - Dwarfs, Elves, Orcs, etc. - to be on level with the Humans. The form societies like us, specialize like us, etc. Significantly, the Humanoids are very separate from the beasts and animals.

2) The other group make a separate distinction. For them, it more like: Humans vs. the rest. Of course, this is a simplification, but from this point of view, factions based entirely on beasts, or factions with multiple different kinds of Humanoids is not a problem. More specifically, we typically see a specialization of the Humanoids: Whereas Humans can have Pikemen, Archers, Swordsmen, Priests and Cavalry, Elfs are always Archers, Dwarves are always melee axe-men, Orcs always throw axes, etc. In this way, the Humanoids are basically put on level with the beasts: They don't form societies, they don't specialize.

Now, neither of these views are particularly right or wrong, they are just fundamentally different. One has its offspring (I theorize) in modern fantasy literature, the other is closer to classical mythology. Which point of view we assume, I suppose, is mostly dependant on our background. Personally, I've read a lot (A LOT) of fantasy, and I think that has dominated my view on this subject.


Also, one other thing should be mentioned here: I see the word gameplay scattered around here. One should realize, that however the factions are contructed in terms of creates has NO influence on gameplay. In terms of gameplay, all creatures could be squares of different colours, numbers, or whatever, and the game would play just as well. All the rest is eye-candy, or maybe rather mind-candy. It influences the way we relate to the game, the atmosphere, etc. Which is very important, mind you - but still, has nothing to do with gameplay as such. Yes, some put a lot of focus on lore, others put their interest in atmosphere or feeling, some focus on graphics, and still other focus on gameplay. Most of us probably focus to some extent on all of these things. But when discussing one of them, we must be careful not to drag the others into it also.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted July 01, 2008 10:09 PM

Here are my 2 cents on the issue:

Both sides are wrong. The pro-race people say that having mixed towns makes no sense. They are wrong - having mixed-race towns can make a great deal of sense. The pro-mix people are wrong too, when they say that having races does anything to the gameplay. You could have a town of blobs and a town of flashlights, and it wouldn't affect the gameplay one bit.

I am really ambivalent on this issue. I like race-based towns and I like mixed towns depending on whether they're designed well or not, not depending on what kind of town they are. If they can make it make sense story-wise, they should go for it.

On one hand, though, races can get a bit boring if taken too far, H5 Fortress being a good example of that.
Defenders - good, classical dwarves.
Spearwielders - nice idea.
Bear Riders - cool original idea.
Brawlers - meh.
Rune Priests - also meh.
Thanes - giant dwarves
Fire Dragons - at last, a break from all of the dwarves!

It can get boring if taken too far. Haven, Sylvan, and Dungeon were good race-based towns, but Fortress went overboard.

On the other hand, while NWC was never guilty of this, it is possible for a mixed town to go overboard. Think of a town like this:

Peasant
Blob
Cerberus
Druid
Lich
Psychic Elemental
Hydra

This town makes no sense. It has no unifying theme. If the plot writers tried to make it make sense, they'd have a hard time not making it look contrived. So there has to be a theme.
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triumph
triumph


Anti-race based town
posted July 01, 2008 10:17 PM

as for the whole storyline bit, I understand a lot of guys play the game for the storyline and I admit, I love good lore...but heroes lore sucks lol. The storyline in heroes 5 is SO cliche and the voice-over acting is so bad it's hard to take any of it seriously. In games like Starcraft and Warcraft 3, there are great stories and therefore the races should be built around them. However, if the storyline isn't even going to be given first rate resources, why build the game around it?

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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 01, 2008 10:32 PM

As always alcibiades, you hit the nail on the head.  You make a lot of excellent  points.  And I guess game-play isn't the word I was looking for, it's more of a "fun factor?", I'm not sure.  I was never good at vocabulary.  Sure the game-play of heroes 5 is great, like I said I thought it was the best TBS game out there, but heroes 3 is almost more fun to play because of the diverse creatures, and probably will be more fun after the new castles on WOG.

Take age of empires for example.  Obviously a game designed on around the multi-player like heroes is (or should be).  Yea the game-play would be exactly the same if all of the units were boxes, and the Units were called Unit A - Unit Z.  But would people have nearly as much fun? NO.  That is how I view the dwarf castle.  Dwarf A upgrades to Dwarf B.  Is that really what people want?  Do you people have an imagination?

And on the whole childish thing? So what?  I play Halo and I also play Mario Kart.  Do you not play Mario because you can't stand the idea of cartoon plumber jumping into pipes and killing flying turtles by jumping on them?  So what? It was a bizarre, creative idea that obviously did pretty well.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 01, 2008 10:33 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:36, 01 Jul 2008.

Towns by races.

Heroes 3 made no sense.
"Hey lets mix 7 completly diffrent monsters in one town that makes no sense with 90% human heroes!".
About the childish thing - i think that is childish.

And  "science fiction = fantasy" didnt make sense either. They are completly diffrent things. They are the opposite of each other.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 01, 2008 10:41 PM
Edited by Cepheus at 22:43, 01 Jul 2008.

Quote:
Heroes 3 made no sense.


Word.

Quote:
90% human heroes!".


i.e. 2-6 human heroes per race out of 16?

Quote:
And  "science fiction = fantasy" didnt make sense either. They are completly diffrent things. They are the opposite of each other.


You must not be familiar with Final Fantasy, Wizardry, Might and Magic or many other world-acclaimed science fantasy RPGs.

Oh my, I must stop jumping on everyone who makes outlandish, incorrect, exaggerated statements

@mvass - I actually agree with everything you've written there.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted July 01, 2008 10:45 PM

Quote:
as for the whole storyline bit, I understand a lot of guys play the game for the storyline and I admit, I love good lore...but heroes lore sucks lol. The storyline in heroes 5 is SO cliche and the voice-over acting is so bad it's hard to take any of it seriously. In games like Starcraft and Warcraft 3, there are great stories and therefore the races should be built around them. However, if the storyline isn't even going to be given first rate resources, why build the game around it?


Because: "THIS IS NOT MADNESS, THIS IS UBISOFT!"
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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 01, 2008 10:48 PM

Quote:
Quote:
as for the whole storyline bit, I understand a lot of guys play the game for the storyline and I admit, I love good lore...but heroes lore sucks lol. The storyline in heroes 5 is SO cliche and the voice-over acting is so bad it's hard to take any of it seriously. In games like Starcraft and Warcraft 3, there are great stories and therefore the races should be built around them. However, if the storyline isn't even going to be given first rate resources, why build the game around it?


Because: "THIS IS NOT MADNESS, THIS IS UBISOFT!"



Your the man del_diablo.  

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 01, 2008 11:05 PM

Quote:
On the other hand, while NWC was never guilty of this, it is possible for a mixed town to go overboard. Think of a town like this:

Peasant
Blob
Cerberus
Druid
Lich
Psychic Elemental
Hydra


I can name one:

Troglodyte
Harpy
Beholder
Medusa
Minotaur
Manticore
Dragon


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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 01, 2008 11:08 PM
Edited by xerox at 23:42, 01 Jul 2008.

@ Cepheus


Inferno - 6/16 humans
Fortress - 6/16 humans
Ramparts - 5/16 humans
Dungeon - 6/16 humans
Stronghold - 5/16 humans
Necropolis - 6/16 humans
Conflux - worse of them all - 8/16 DIFFRENT NON-ELEMENTAL RACES

Thats hardly 2-6 humans like you said. All monster towns almost have 50% human heroes. Its way to much.

Wizardry doesnt count, its old stuff that no one cares about.

Final Fantasy comes from Japan, and that alone says a lot...
Also i always though there were diffrent FFs. I didnt know that the Sci-Fi and Fantasy ones were connected.
Might and Magic doesnt count lol.

Think about how many games that DOESNT mix fantasy and heavy sci-fi in the most weird way then.

Let me think whatever i want. I think its childish to mix creatures in a town with lots of monsters and human heroes and in a universe where everything is a huge masquerade (aliens disguise themself as demons, how orginal and the Angels are high-tech machines...).



____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted July 01, 2008 11:14 PM

Isn't the alien-demons thing just a perspective?

They're from a different dimension and doesn't belong in Ashan, so that pretty much makes them aliens, but it's not like they're acutally small green things with brains in a large tube or something? Right?

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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted July 01, 2008 11:22 PM

Quote:
Isn't the alien-demons thing just a perspective?

They're from a different dimension and doesn't belong in Ashan, so that pretty much makes them aliens, but it's not like they're acutally small green things with brains in a large tube or something? Right?


We are discussing Migth and  Magic, not "World of Ashan"

"World of Ashan" history involves snowloads of cliches along with "demons will take the world", "Christian uber inspirered", etc.
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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted July 01, 2008 11:25 PM

Oh sorry then...

I'm kinda confused right now you know

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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 01, 2008 11:34 PM
Edited by zazu1 at 23:35, 01 Jul 2008.

Quote:

Peasant
Blob
Cerberus
Druid
Lich
Psychic Elemental
Hydra



Hey I said each castle has a theme, like one of the ones I mentioned.  Not just a random assortment picked from a hat.

@ Xerox: I have no Idea what your talking about with the x/16 humans? And I said nothing about the race of the humans.  I like how they look in heroes 5. But if this game is too childish for you then stop playing computer games.  Go play golf or something.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 01, 2008 11:41 PM

I answered Cepheus post
I have nothing against your posts
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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zazu1
zazu1


Adventuring Hero
Makes Sense
posted July 01, 2008 11:46 PM

Ahhh, I see. Well sorry for the misunderstanding. I was a bit confused lol.

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Cepheus
Cepheus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
posted July 02, 2008 12:48 AM
Edited by Cepheus at 01:06, 02 Jul 2008.

Quote:
Conflux - worse of them all - 8/16 DIFFRENT NON-ELEMENTAL RACES


Only 3 humans, though.

Quote:
Its way to much.


Subjective.  How come nobody's complained, yet alone cared, about it until now?

Quote:
Wizardry doesnt count, its old stuff that no one cares about.


This statement, if anything, is the epitome of childishness.

What does age matter?  Wizardry was a successful series in its time.  Nobdody was complaining about the sci-fi and fantasy crossover.  It made the game far richer.  

Quote:
Final Fantasy comes from Japan, and that alone says a lot...
Also i always though there were diffrent FFs. I didnt know that the Sci-Fi and Fantasy ones were connected.


They're all the same series.  Final Fantasy IV is a perfect example of science-fantasy.  Another example of a game with such a crossover is Arcanum.

This is miles off topic in any case.

Quote:
Might and Magic doesnt count lol.


Incorrect.

Quote:
Think about how many games that DOESNT mix fantasy and heavy sci-fi in the most weird way then.


I have.  "Weirdness" is subjective.

Quote:
Let me think whatever i want.


Sure.  I will still comment on your thoughts if you post them here though.

Quote:
I think its childish to mix creatures in a town with lots of monsters and human heroes


Great.  

I think Dragon Gods, crappy voice acting, an unbelievably convulted plot, names which contradict one another and minimal story resolution throughout is childish.

Quote:
(aliens disguise themself as demons, how orginal


That's rich, aren't you the guy who likes Warcraft?  What is the Burning Legion?  Don't they travel to different planets and conquer the residents?  Or am I mistaken?

How original is right, especially since Warcraft III was released long after Might and Magic VI.

Quote:
the Angels are high-tech machines...).


Could you please offer a source for this "fact"?



*sighs and walks away*

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted July 02, 2008 01:06 AM

What's wrong with Dragon Gods?

Anyway, are there any options other than race and theme?
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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