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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: [Poll] Leadership for Necromancers
Thread: [Poll] Leadership for Necromancers This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Moonstryder
Moonstryder


Hired Hero
posted September 25, 2008 02:14 AM
Edited by Moonstryder at 18:40, 25 Sep 2008.

1. -3/6/9% initiative towards enemy troops per skill level could work out.

OR

2. +4/8/12% per skill level towards your dark energy resavoir

OR

3. a -5/10/15% decrease per skill level towards troop raising costs. any of these could substitute for regular moral.
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted September 25, 2008 07:23 AM

Yes, leadership should be change, but should still be leadership, as leadership is a general therm of how good a leader you are/have. So even an undead hero can be a leader, but undead use no moral. I like the oposite version of Empathy.

So you could easily have: Diplomacy, recruitment and esates
All three are still logical, the dead can easily speak their case, they can easily recruit and they can also make money. So what is left?

Oposite of empthay(I have no antonym for it), you have herald of death - perhaps you could have a skill similar to "battle commander" which gives, zombies, ghost or skellies... But the question ofcourse is what would the "leadership" do, I'll try to figure something out. But it is should be easy to do..
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted September 25, 2008 08:16 AM
Edited by Nebdar at 08:23, 25 Sep 2008.

Quote:
Hail balance imbalanced


@Elvin please more balanced reply(Some bad sides some good sides) or you should vote no necro changes ever
The game is not balanced or unbalanced now only the players are in need of balancing IMO.

Quote:
Yes, leadership should be change, but should still be leadership, as leadership is a general therm of how good a leader you are/have. So even an undead hero can be a leader, but undead use no moral. I like the oposite version of Empathy.

So you could easily have: Diplomacy, recruitment and esates
All three are still logical, the dead can easily speak their case, they can easily recruit and they can also make money. So what is left?

Oposite of empthay(I have no antonym for it), you have herald of death - perhaps you could have a skill similar to "battle commander" which gives, zombies, ghost or skellies... But the question ofcourse is what would the "leadership" do, I'll try to figure something out. But it is should be easy to do..


Hmm Emilsn that is the problem should the Necromancer had a chance to be a multiracial hero so he can lead other faction troops or make specific skill like Barbarians have. For me Uniqe skill system for every faction is an solution.

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted September 25, 2008 08:41 AM

Don't overkill on it. Howl of Terror gives -6 to Morale/luck already, so don't exaggerate.

But after all, there's only 2% of coming up.

It would be a nice Skill, but Necro usually doesn't have skill slots to spare: they need two magic Schools (Summoing and Dark Preferably, Destructive and Summoning versus Necro), Enlightement, Sorcery and Either Luck or Logistics as your sixth skill. that's very, very tight, as there will always be better skills to use.
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted September 25, 2008 08:52 AM

Quote:
Don't overkill on it. Howl of Terror gives -6 to Morale/luck already, so don't exaggerate.

But after all, there's only 2% of coming up.

It would be a nice Skill, but Necro usually doesn't have skill slots to spare: they need two magic Schools (Summoing and Dark Preferably, Destructive and Summoning versus Necro), Enlightement, Sorcery and Either Luck or Logistics as your sixth skill. that's very, very tight, as there will always be better skills to use.


Howl of Terror gives only -6 to Morale from what i know. That because there strict and thight patch of picking skill, playing Necro is boring and hard because there aren't any skills that can be traded with eachother without decreasing you heroes chance to win. There is no finese no room place for different strategys, it's just one way easy to counter and prepare too.

Lexxan do you play Necro faction at all or only against it.

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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted September 25, 2008 09:02 AM

I sometimes play it, but I'm not too good with it.

DOn't get me wrong, what you suggest is FAR better than the current situation, but don't make things more overpowered than they are now.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 25, 2008 10:23 AM

Quote:
Basic: this ability gives 10% chance to Skeletons and Zombies to cause fear after attacking the enemy(the probablity should be calculated the same as for Paw Strike ability)
Advanced: 20% chance for Skeletons,Zombies, Ghosts, Vampires
Expert: 30% chance for Skeletons,Zombies, Ghosts, Vampires, Liches, Wraiths

Imbalanced, badly.

Quote:
Threaten + Dead Man's Curse -> Crippling Misfortune( when bad luck is triggerd on the enemys units they became so frightened that they miss with their attack, panic and won't attack, or it's attack will only 10% of normal damage)

Has amazing potential if you are lucky with artifacts. However with its requiring 2 skills with 2% chance it will probably never be used.

Quote:
Herlad Of death + Haunted Estates = Master of Haunting( 1 ghost or its upgrade will join the heroes per day or doubles the number of ghost in Haunted Mines(The it will be needed this skill)

Doubling ghosts from haunted mines is immensely overpowered, nuff said. As for 1 ghost per day it should be fine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Necro is not weak and therefore needs no boosting, if you are to change its perks then try something that does not mess with the balance. Fear in all units even at a low chance is not something to be taken lightly.
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted September 25, 2008 06:27 PM

As I tried to say ealier, leadership doesn't always mean you can keep your troops eager to battle.

But so much more, we just have to think about another way to boost your army without using moral boost or making them imba.

IDEA(it is a bit against what I wrote above)

Basic Leadership:
Tier 1 has 1% chance to cause the enemy to lose 1% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 2 has 2% chance to cause the enemy to lose 2% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 3 has 3% chance to cause the enemy to lose 3% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 4 has 4% chance to cause the enemy to lose 4% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Same thing all down to tier 7!!!

Advance Leadership:
Tier 1 has 1% chance to cause the enemy to lose 2% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 2 has 2% chance to cause the enemy to lose 3% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 3 has 3% chance to cause the enemy to lose 4% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 4 has 4% chance to cause the enemy to lose 5% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Same thing all down to tier 7!!!

Expert Leadership:
Tier 1 has 1% chance to cause the enemy to lose 3% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 2 has 2% chance to cause the enemy to lose 4% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 3 has 3% chance to cause the enemy to lose 5% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Tier 4 has 4% chance to cause the enemy to lose 6% of the enemy's moral for the next round
Same thing all down to tier 7!!!

This can POSIBEL not be overpowered.. think about it
____________
Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted September 25, 2008 06:40 PM

Quote:
Necro is not weak and therefore needs no boosting,

If it's hard to play or master Necro then i say it's weak because for example it easy to play or master Haven because they are strong. Yeah the weak/strong depends of the point of view.

Quote:
Fear in all units even at a low chance is not something to be taken lightly.

Hmm you are probably right. Many times it seems i should think twice so i think that it might changed the the chance let's say 3%, 6%, 9% BUT the Fear effect if will trigger, it should before dealing damage (but if creature doesn't have place to escape it will be hit) so it damage or panic.

Quote:
Threaten + Dead Man's Curse -> Crippling Misfortune( when bad luck is triggerd on the enemys units they became so frightened that they miss with their attack, panic and won't attack, or it's attack will only 10% of normal damage)
Has amazing potential if you are lucky with artifacts. However with its requiring 2 skills with 2% chance it will probably never be used.


After second thought it feels to imbalanced(me saying that), it should reduce morale -1 till next attack (if it's normal or lucky), but if another is unlucky then morale is reduced -2, and so on if in row the unit is unlucky.

Quote:
Herlad Of death + Haunted Estates = Master of Haunting( 1 ghost or its upgrade will join the heroes per day or doubles the number of ghost in Haunted Mines(The it will be needed this skill)
Doubling ghosts from haunted mines is immensely overpowered, nuff said. As for 1 ghost per day it should be fine.


Then let's stay with 1 ghost per 2 days.
thnx for balance reply Elvin.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 25, 2008 06:56 PM

Haven can't do the things necro can. You may think haven is easier to play but it will never come close to necro's creeping, say 35 master hunters on week 1 with no casualties. Even lots of crossbowmen look scary to haven and if you have them fight a pack of dragons week 2-3 without regeneration or resurrection they'll have casualties. Necro won't have much trouble.
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted September 25, 2008 07:25 PM
Edited by Nebdar at 23:09, 25 Sep 2008.

Quote:
1. -3/6/9% initiative towards enemy troops per skill level could work out.

Hmm that's  an idea Moonstryder.
Intimidate skill that will reduce initiative at the start only of enemy creatures. There can be something opposite to Swift Mind like Troubled Mind Enemy heros starting initiative is reduced by 25%

Quote:
Haven can't do the things necro can. You may think haven is easier to play but it will never come close to necro's creeping, say 35 master hunters on week 1 with no casualties. Even lots of crossbowmen look scary to haven and if you have them fight a pack of dragons week 2-3 without regeneration or resurrection they'll have casualties. Necro won't have much trouble.


"It does not go like that Elvin. Earlygame is not everything in all maps and assuming you know how to creep with Necro does not mean you know how to handle Necro from midgame till lategame."
Your own words Elvin (just added Elvin and Necro)

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 26, 2008 12:12 AM

You were the one to say that haven is better because it is easier to master
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 26, 2008 02:15 AM
Edited by blizzardboy at 02:15, 26 Sep 2008.

Only 50% of players seem to be primary Necro players out of the 8 factions to choose from. That ratio isn't high enough, so I would most def. support giving Necromancer a powerful use of the leadership skill.

/sarcasm
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 26, 2008 08:19 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 08:21, 26 Sep 2008.

Well I still hold that you could make Leadership a usefull skill without making Necropolis imbalanced. First of all, even if you make Leadership usefull, it will still mean missing out on another skill to take it - all things being equal - and question is, how much would you want to give up on, say, Dark Magic, Summoning Magic or Enlightenment - or Logistics to get Swift Mind - just to take Leadership? Nah, I don't think it would be that broken.

As it is now, Leadership is a joke, because it's not only completely waste, it also locks up to of this faction's unique abilities: Herald Of Death and Haunted Mines. Now apparantly there are balance issues with Haunted Mines, but rather than locking it out of the game, why not tweak it instead to make it better. Herald Of Death is useful but not amazing as it is, so I think that's fine. Of course it also opens of for Empathy which will really be a boost for your Necromancer ... or ...

And as for all the fancy suggestions, I still favor a -1/-2/-3 Morale penalty for opponent. It's simple and it's logical because it evens out normal Leadership. How can that be unfair? And as for the issue with Howl Of Terror ... You need Dark (+ perks), Summoning (+ perks) and Enlightenment (+ perks) and then of course Necromancy to get HOT - that's a good 24 levels. Then you need to invest another 3 levels in Leadership - which is of course, given that it's offered to you, at 2 %, that's not guaranteed at all.


The final thing we need is a modder to change it so that ultimate knight ability changes Benediction to add +6 morale instead of just +1 ...

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Vangelis21
Vangelis21


Supreme Hero
Manchild
posted September 26, 2008 01:41 PM

i didn't read all the thread so sorry if i am repeating something but morale that decreases the morale of enemies is totally bad idea. any army with a morale of -3 is almost for sure to lose the battle
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 26, 2008 01:54 PM

Bah ... that's an empty statement, and besides, a native army has an inherent +2 morale bonus, so it'd only amount to -1 even with expert Leadership.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted September 26, 2008 01:57 PM
Edited by Asheera at 13:57, 26 Sep 2008.

I don't know why people always forget that taking Leadership makes your hero have one skill less. For example, you may reduce the enemy morale by -3, but also lose all benefits of Enlightenment. Is it really overpowered? Honestly I don't even know if it's worth the sacrifice
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 26, 2008 04:33 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 16:50, 26 Sep 2008.

Quote:
I don't know why people always forget that taking Leadership makes your hero have one skill less. For example, you may reduce the enemy morale by -3, but also lose all benefits of Enlightenment. Is it really overpowered? Honestly I don't even know if it's worth the sacrifice


I'm hesitant to use the word "overpowered", but it's a bad idea because not only does it aid you in decreasing morale, but it also negates an enemy heroes empathy hero skill (or if you've got other factors to decrease their morale even more, you make it work against them) as well as retribution. And empathy and retribution are both highly sought after skills. You'd also be completely negating Runic Attunement and Battle Elation.

Leadership deserves to suck for undead for balance reasons (even though it's too late for that). Undead have the advantage of not being affected by mind spells, but they also can't take advantage of morale. It's not a big deal either way since they've only got a 2% chance of being offered it, but still.
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted September 26, 2008 04:50 PM

Quote:
I'm hesitant to use the word "overpowered", but it's a bad idea because not only does it aid you in decreasing morale, but it also negates an enemy heroes empathy hero skill (or if you've got other factors to decrease their morale even more, you make it work against them) as well as retribution. And empathy and retribution are both highly sought after skills. You'd also be completely negating Runic Attunement and Battle Elation.
Well then you should adapt your strategy and not pick those skills when fighting Necro
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 26, 2008 05:03 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 17:04, 26 Sep 2008.

Or, since Necromancers are spoiled as it is, they can not have a Shatter Leadership (it's actually stronger than a shatter because it negates it completely and possibly makes it work against them).

Forcing a Haven player to not get leadership (and thus retribution as well) is unfair. It's possibly their biggest skill. It's pretty popular for Barbarian as well. A person already has to adjust their strategy against Necro since they know they can't use mind spells on their targets (immunity to confusion, which is the most powerful mass spell in the game, and no high level dark magic) so they're forced to compensate.


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