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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 07:54 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 19:55, 06 Nov 2009.
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so I can prevent my own stacks from being lucky by casting MotN on them.
also, if I have less luck than the opponent, I may steal luck points from him, otherwise I may just destroy them?
and if an enemy attacks my marked creature, he may steal his luck points?
that's like super confusing 
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted November 06, 2009 08:27 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 20:34, 06 Nov 2009.
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i am thinking about frendlys casualties but you know it is misfortune.... you are an evil master and you really don't care about your minions fate. They are your meat bags that you use to make the combat go long enough when Necromancer can overpower the enemy with endless mana/ dark spells
The luck can be stolen and given to anothewr when the attacked one actually had it so it must have luck greater then 0.
When enemys luck is greater then 0 you actually steal luck and when it is 0 and less you give more bad luck.. thats my thinking
thanks Fauch for tips and reading it
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 07, 2009 08:50 AM |
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Jolly Joker
Necro's Luck
The perk s perhaps a bit specialised, and I'm not sure if it's a good thing having a perk that improves on another perk which does not exactly need improving on? I guess that's a matter of taste, it's not my favorite, but guess it could work. Name is a bit boring.
Creativity: 5
Realism: 6
Knight's Luck
Meh ... mix up the names. Makes a crappy skill a bit less crappy - but it still sucks. Guess it would be fun if anybody would actually ever use Counterstrike, but ...
Creativity: 5
Realism: 6
Griffin's Luck
Holy ... what's with the prerequisites? You do know you can get this perk earliest around level 22, right? I actually think the idea is pretty good, if not for the requirements, and also the potential multi-trigger is a bad idea for balance. I understand you want to make it flashy, but it subtracks on the realism. The perk would actually have been viable had it offered only one extra retaliation - however, I would probably have grouped it with Leadership (for the "extra attack thing") rather than with Luck. Name is better than the others.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 5
Fauch
Gifts From Elrath
Cool name. Quite creative also. That's a lot of minor artifacts! Ironically, I have my doubts on whether this perk is actually a good or a bad thing, but I suppose that with access to an artifact merchant, you could always sell the unwanted artifacts (which would be most of them) and make decent money in that way. As effective Luck is capped at +5, I think it would be reasonable to say this chance would go up to 20 % maximum.
Creativity: 9
Realism: 8
Unlucky Prey
Ouch ... that would make the Warlock a one-trick joker for creeping (even more than he already is), and I'm not really sure he needs that. Ironically, I think the perk would be interesting if offered to some other class with lower spellpower and more troubly during creeping - for instance, Demon Lord would be a class that could possibly benefit from this - apart from the fact that Demon Lord never gets, and has no use for, Summoning Magic. Maybe the perk should be placed outside of Summoning Magic, just like Power Of Resistance and Power Of Speed does not require Light Magic? That might make it pretty interesting, i.e. offers Firetraps with advanced mastery, and you also trigger on passing adjacant tiles. I'd buy that.
Creativity: 9
Realism: 6
Mamgaeather
Swifter Mind
Bad name ... Swift Mind > Swifter Mind sounds stupid and reeks of lack of creativity. The effect seems like a remake of Empathy, and I really don't see why the game - or the Luck skill - needs that. Maybe if it had some other effect, like adding to Hero attack damage or something, it would make more sense.
Creativity: 4
Realism: 5
Azagal
Eye Of The Sorcerer
Awesome name ... awesome perk. I think this is useful and like you say, given that Soldier's Luck is not exactly a great pick for Academy, I think it would be a good incentive. A simple but great idea, the theme is perfect with Academy. I could deffinitely see this in the game.
Creativity: 9
Realism: 10
Nebdar
Master Of Misfortune
Evil.  I like the general idea of banning Luck from triggering on a target, but all the other stuff makes it imba in my oppinion. Even if double chance for bad luck to trigger might only be applicable rarely (but then perhaps not, with Sorrow Dragons and all), it's still a potential way to take out a powerful stack almost completely, and the permanent reduction of luck seems further overpowered. Oh, and I see you edited it to be even more imbalanced, so that you now transfer the luck to your own units ... no thanx. This is like 3 perks in one - all of which could work, but not in one skill.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 4
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What will happen now?
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted November 07, 2009 09:02 AM |
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you know how tricky can be 50% chance...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 10:29 AM |
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One thing about the Necro stuff. The task here is to make a special perk for one race - that means there has to be a reason why that perk is only for a specific race (and not for any other), right?
For the Haven perks, a retaliation isn't an attack, but just a retaliation. The difference is, that THE OPPONENT determines which of his stacks the retaliation will be directed against.
Anyways, counterstrike and retaliation abilities are pretty useless when fighting neutrals - obviously, since you don't want things like Coubnterstrike come into play in the first place -, but they will win decisive, tough battles against equal opponents. In an all-out battle you cannot make every attack either sacrificial or highly destructive, there is a lot of attrition and retaliation involved, and that's where a chance to retain the ability to retaliate (with a bonus over and above everything else) will count.
So the high prerequisites are logical, since the whole build with everything needed is geared for winning the LAST battle, not help you with creeping, on the contrary.
Of course, the prerequisites don't do much to get there - they are not the best skills for creeping, not by a mile, which, then is the price to pay.
Just for an explanation of the rational behind that.
Oh, and one other thing. I didn't invent the Counterstrike perk - so why is your opinion on COUNTERSTRIKE is flowing into judging the perk?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 07, 2009 11:21 AM |
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Well I can't speak for them on that, but I think I understand the thought process.
Any prerequisits or skills that might be similar would be looked at. For instance lets say you have a skill 'Divine Light' and its perks include 'shrug darkness'. I know I for one would want a dang goupd reason why.
Now say that you wanted a perk that gave units an extra chance to activate their special abilities like Bash...I'd wonder how you could skip over seeing Soldiers Luck. Basically it is how everything applies to the skill posted.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 12:52 PM |
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Umm, I don't see connection, Mytical. Could you explain?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 07, 2009 01:03 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 13:05, 07 Nov 2009.
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Well your perk gives bonuses to Counterstrike. Therefore the skill counterstrike has to be considered when deciding on balance, usefulness, and if it would fit in the game as a whole. So even though you did not create the perk, you USE the counterstrike perk in the skill. Meaning that the counterstrike overall has to be considered regardless (to see effectiveness, balance, etc). Since counterstrike is not used that often, that means your perk won't be used that often, affecting the overall effectivness of the perk.
The same would go for retaliations, although..with careful planning, it would be more useful because unless a unit has a no retaliation attack, there is generally at LEAST one retaliation.
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Message received.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted November 07, 2009 01:10 PM |
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Quote:
The effect seems like a remake of Empathy
Well of course.
Its a twist on empathy.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 01:56 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 13:58, 07 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
Fauch
Gifts From Elrath
I have my doubts on whether this perk is actually a good or a bad thing, but I suppose that with access to an artifact merchant, you could always sell the unwanted artifacts (which would be most of them) and make decent money in that way.
you don't have to choose this perk if you prefer gold / XP over artifacts. but you may want to fill the remaining slots in your heroes. whatever you get, it's still better than nothing.
"you found the tax lien!"
"oh snow"
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 02:03 PM |
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@ Mytical
Well. In that case a perk for Academy needing Soldier's Luck as prerequisite should get 0 points because as Academy you don't want to take Soldier's Luck AT ALL, so I can't follow your logic here.
Counterstrike is the racial skill, and it doesn't matter whether you like that skill or not or whether it has an effect or not - you will start with it and probably pick it at least to advanced level.
Second, as I explained, Counterstrike is pretty useless against neutrals (but the perks are ok), but it's quite solid against aother armies in hard fights.
Counterstike will make a Knight much more difficult to beat - try to bring down 150 Squires that come with 45% Counterstrike bonus, Preparation and a chance on gaining another retaliation - not to mention that Guardian Angel effect.
A perk clearly doesn't have to be useful ALWAYS. Tear of Asha vision, for example, isn't even useful on each map, but may come very handy on ToA maps.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 07, 2009 02:21 PM |
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@ JollyJoker
Quote:
One thing about the Necro stuff. The task here is to make a special perk for one race - that means there has to be a reason why that perk is only for a specific race (and not for any other), right?
Well, you can make a faction unique perk in many ways, it does not necessarily have to relate to a class skill or perk already in existance. Take for instance March Of The Golems, Guardian Angel, or Elven Luck - all excellent examples of faction unique perks.
But there's nothing wrong with relating your perk with another perk - my objection is that Mark Of The Necromancer is already a very powerful perk, so I don't really see the need of adding another perk to boost it. Of course, you may say I turn this argument around in the Haven section where I say the Counterstrike is a crappy perk, so it seems a waste to make a perk to improve it - so I guess what it comes down to is that I think a perk should be able to stand alone, and not just being an upgrade of another perk. Notice that skills have upgrades (basic, advanced, expert) whereas perks stand alone.
An excellent Necromancy perk would have been something that gave you 10 % x Luck chance to use less Dark Energy on raising creatures, but nobody entered that one I think.
Quote:
For the Haven perks, a retaliation isn't an attack, but just a retaliation. The difference is, that THE OPPONENT determines which of his stacks the retaliation will be directed against.
Anyways, counterstrike and retaliation abilities are pretty useless when fighting neutrals - obviously, since you don't want things like Coubnterstrike come into play in the first place -, but they will win decisive, tough battles against equal opponents. In an all-out battle you cannot make every attack either sacrificial or highly destructive, there is a lot of attrition and retaliation involved, and that's where a chance to retain the ability to retaliate (with a bonus over and above everything else) will count.
So the high prerequisites are logical, since the whole build with everything needed is geared for winning the LAST battle, not help you with creeping, on the contrary.
Of course, the prerequisites don't do much to get there - they are not the best skills for creeping, not by a mile, which, then is the price to pay.
Just for an explanation of the rational behind that.
Remember that judging always is subjective - sometimes that works for you, othertimes against. I won't go into the thing with improving on a crappy perk - look above.
About the pre-requisites thing: My objection was of a more technical nature. Come 3.1, Nival have reworked the skill system, and currently there is a limitation on the skill dependancy a perk can have. Perks can require:
a) Only perks within its own skill (for example, prerequisite for Suppress Light is Master Of Blessings),
b) Perks within its own skill plus one racial perk (for example, Last Stand requires Stand Your Ground and Expert Trainer if you're a Knight), or
c) Perks within its own skill plus one other skill plus/minus one racial perk (for example, Preparation requires Stand Your Ground and Tactics)
In H5 vanilla, there were "sub-ultimate perks" that required skills from 2 or even 3 other skills, but this is no longer the case - with exception of Ultimate Perks, of course, which draws on 3 skills plus racial.
Therefore, from a purely technical point of view, a perk like the one you list would never occur in the game with those prerequisites, and that subtracts on realism. Furthermore, I do agree with Mytical, that the more prerequisites a perk has, the more powerful it must be - thus you will notice that perks belonging to group c) above are very powerful perks like Preparation, Retribution, Flaming Arrows, Swift Mind, etc. - and I don't think the benefits of your perk justified being in that category.
Oh, and one last thing: The difference with the perk in Academy is that it doesn't improve on Soldier's Luck, so even if SL is useless with Academy's native troops, you can say this is just a way of balancing the requirements.
@ Fauch
Quote:
Quote:
Fauch
Gifts From Elrath
I have my doubts on whether this perk is actually a good or a bad thing, but I suppose that with access to an artifact merchant, you could always sell the unwanted artifacts (which would be most of them) and make decent money in that way.
you don't have to choose this perk if you prefer gold / XP over artifacts. but you may want to fill the remaining slots in your heroes. whatever you get, it's still better than nothing.
"you found the tax lien!"
"oh snow"
I understand - what I ment was, I have my doubts if you would ever find yourself in a situation where it would be an advantage to get those minor artifacts, but looking through the list, I see there's actually some decent artifacts among them, and some pricy ones as well - can you sell artifacts in normal marketplace?
____________
What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 03:36 PM |
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Alci, I don't mind the rating and with Necro's Luck being classified as a bit drab.
However, I think you completely underestimate the Haven double perk.
First thing is, it was designed as a double perk, using up the 3 Luck perks with Soldier's Luck, Knight's Luck and Griffin Luck. Let's see:
Luck as such is cconsidered very powerful by most, if it triggers. The snag, generally, is that you can't plan on it - it triggers or it doesn't. No matter what, though,. most of the time it's good for the attacker if it triggers, but note that the BURDEN of planning with it is completely with the attacker, which means, the attacker has the skill, the ATTACKER has to take the chance, betting on a lucky strike and so on.
That's completey different with Griffin's Luck where you profit as a defender, so it's the one NOT having the perk who has the burden to plan with it, and the perk has a DISRUPTIVE ability. Usually you try to concentrate attacks PLANNING on attacking tough stacks a couple of times after using their retaliation ability up to whittle them down. With Griffin's Luck this gets uncalculable. Plans like, I'll attack the Archangels with X first, followed by any number of units won't really work when after the X attack Griffin's Luck triggers and the unit gets another retaliation. Think about it.
Add to that the massively boosted Counterstrike bonus, plus Prepartion and Guardian Angel and it's clear that a Knight's army with these perks will be extremely hard to beat.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 07, 2009 07:09 PM |
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Interesting round. Luck brought up some pretty wild stuff.
***
JollyJoker:
Necro's Luck
*facepalm* Normally this perk would have easily been a 20/20, but did you have to call it "Necro's Luck" instead of "Necromancer's Luck"? I know we all usually abbreviate it in the vernacular, but for a perk name, it really deserves to be called "Necromancer". Everything else looks 100% perfect, fun, and innovative. A very useful perk for both creeping and the final battle.
Creativity: 9
Realism: 10
=19
Fauch:
Gifts from Elrath
So with expert luck, we're looking at a +12% chance for a minor artifact, and then +20% with the golden horseshoe. Not taking into account the fact that Resourcefulness kind of sucks (game's fault), I can live with the prereqs + the perk. This probably wouldn't be a hot pick for multiplayer games, but Heroes was really never meant to be primarily multiplayer anyway, and the players in that situation would just ignore Resourcefulness before they ever got to this. Nice name and balance.
Creativity: 10
Realism: 10
= 20
Mamgaeater:
Swifter Mind
I know you intentionally named it "Swifter Mind" to play off of "Swift Mind", but I think it's kind of lame, and plus "Swifter Mind" doesn't sync very well with luck, which doesn't relate to brains and quick thinking. Also, the prereqs are so difficult it's kind of silly: you'd need logistics + enlightenment + luck. It's practically as hard to get as an ultimate, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of giving the Wizard another alternative to Empathy because anything that makes the Wizard go faster is deadly.
Creativity: 6
Realism: 5
=11
Azagal:
Eye of the Sorcerer
Isn't the whole point of Luck based around chance? Seems kind of counter-intuitive. This perk only works at all if you mark your own units. I'm not very comfortable with the idea of having Kshatra's that can target multiple targets, but choose to strike the one that has the successful luck trigger; that can lead to a lot of dead creatures. Overall, although it's not particularly imbalanced, I think this largely violates the whole function of luck.
Creativity: 8
Realism: 6
=14
Nebdar:
Power of Misfortune
This perk isn't cohesive. You have too many things going on all at once for just one little perk. This perk sucks if you use it on your own units (which isn't an uncommon thing to do) and using it on enemy units seems like a bit much. You completely rob them of the chance of having luck, you increase their chance to have bad luck if they are in the negative, and you can drain their luck + gain luck for your units for the entire battle. Too much stuff.
Creativity: 6
Realism: 4
= 10
***
FINAL SCORES:
Fauch: 18.5
Azagal: 16.5
JollyJoker: 15
Nebdar: 11
Mamgaeater: 10
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 07, 2009 07:20 PM |
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Round 15:
Create a unique Destructive Magic perk for a faction of your choice.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted November 07, 2009 08:04 PM |
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Stronghold
Rain of rage - Destructive
Prereqs - Shout of rage
Horde's Anger deals Twice the number of damage if all the creatures in the hero's army have at least 1 level of rage.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2009 09:38 PM |
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I'd still be interested in a comment on the Haven perks, blizzard.
Ok, make "Necro's luck" "Fortunate Pain".
Anyway, let's see about Destructive:
Perk for NECROMANCER
Asha's Dark Chill
Prerequisites:
Experet Destructive, Cold Death, Basic Sorcery, Magic Insight
Effect:
The Necromancer learns the spell Deep Freeze from Asha; all enemy creatures killed in battle by ANY cold spell (Ice Bolt, Ice Ring, Deep Freeze) of either Hero or creature do not count against the Necromancy skill when raised and cost only HALF of the usual Dark Energy cost to raise.
You might call this effect superconductivity effect on Necromancy. 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 08, 2009 12:50 AM |
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Inferno
Flames of destruction
requires destructive expert, master of fire, searing fire
Fire spells cast by creatures benefit from the effect of master of fire (includes fireball, firewall, armaggeddon, hellfire and explosion (from the horned overseer))
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 08, 2009 06:17 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 06:09, 09 Nov 2009.
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Fortress
Runes of the Elements
Prereq
Expert Destruction, all the Masters (master of fire, etc)
Effect - Choose an element as you enter battle (ice, fire, electric). Each of your units attacks have the effect that goes with that element (fire reduces defense, etc). Creatures immune to that element are not effected. Damage is increased (unless target is immune to the specified element) by 2% per spell power.
Visual Effect - After element is chosen at beginning of combat all the units on your side's weapons glow (red for fire, white for ice, blue for electricity) and a pulsating rune of that element shows on the screen for a short time.
A very powerful perk, but getting all the masteries would be difficult.
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Message received.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted November 08, 2009 11:09 AM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 17:14, 15 Nov 2009.
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Haven
Wrath of Elrath
Prere: Guardian Angel+ Fiery Wrath
Before the Guardian Angel activates the Elrath cast down on the battelfield Armageddon Spell on Expert Mastery with effective spellpower equall to SP+Hero Lvl. The spell has the same effect as it was cast by Warlock with Ultimate Irresistable Magic skill(so negates 75% of the protection)
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This thread is pages long: 
