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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: WoG and Beyond: moderation complaints/feedback
Thread: WoG and Beyond: moderation complaints/feedback This thread is 33 pages long: 1 10 ... 18 19 20 21 22 ... 30 33 · «PREV / NEXT»
Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 15, 2014 05:50 PM

Storm-Giant said:
Now looks much better

Corribus, don't forget to update this thread name with the new one.

I won't forget. However, I would still like to do an overhaul of this place, but I need someone's help.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 15, 2014 06:52 PM

Corribus said:
What I would like to do is create a master index thread that provides a basic introduction to existing H3 mods, their current development states, external links if applicable (to map databases, to production pages, to external forums, to download files), and how they are related to each other. Each of these mods will have a stickied master thread as well.


What you look for is already HERE. It contains proper descriptions with thumbnails, download links, original thread (if any) links, size, etc.

It contains only WoG mods but the forum content itself is at 99% consecrated to WoG-until now at least-. For HoTA and VCMI, the links in forum description send to the available thread. Up to them to edit the root thread with proper links and descriptions.
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Era II mods and utilities

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted February 16, 2014 12:25 AM

Salamandre said:
Corribus said:
What I would like to do is create a master index thread that provides a basic introduction to existing H3 mods, their current development states, external links if applicable (to map databases, to production pages, to external forums, to download files), and how they are related to each other. Each of these mods will have a stickied master thread as well.


What you look for is already HERE. It contains proper descriptions with thumbnails, download links, original thread (if any) links, size, etc.

It contains only WoG mods but the forum content itself is at 99% consecrated to WoG-until now at least-. For HoTA and VCMI, the links in forum description send to the available thread. Up to them to edit the root thread with proper links and descriptions.

I completely disagree, Sal.

Your thread consists on a huge list of MODs for WoG (ERA actually). That will help ZERO any newbie that pass by, they'll be overwhelmed by a ton of links and images, probably not even knowing what ERA means.

What Corribus is asking for, however, is a thread with basic and simple information/descriptions of the big MODs/platforms (that is, WoG, ERA, HotA and VCMI) and some links to threads like yours, which contains more information, the MODs/platforms themselves and such.

The 'masterthread' should teach newbies what's this forum is for, yours thread doesn't (IMO).
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 16, 2014 12:37 AM

Forum title has direct links to every "platform". Each platform then is explained in its main thread.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted February 16, 2014 12:40 AM

That's not what Corribus is asking for, however.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 16, 2014 12:49 AM

I think that this sub-forum is rather well organized, compared to other sub-forums. If you think is not, make yourself useful and start creating such list instead of disagreeing with whatever I say.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 16, 2014 12:50 AM

I'm asking for something along the lines of what Storm-Giant has mentioned. A sort of "come here first" thread. Yes, there are a bunch of acronyms under the forum description, but if you are new to H3, or have been a way while, none of that means anything.  It's not meant to be a complicated thread. An entry like this for each basic mod:

Mod Name: Wake of Gods
<show a logo image>
Basic Description: Blah blah (three to four sentences tops)
Current Version: 1.0
Development status: Inactive
HC Master Thread: show link here
Notable HC Threads: show links here
External threads and forums: show links here
System requirements and prerequisites: H3 vanilla
Download at: show links

The thread will be locked (no posting) and users can petition me to change aspects of it if necessary. New mods can be added by sending me a HCM.

Each mod listed in this thread will be entitled to a single master thread that can be stickied and which will provide as much information as you want, including (hopefully) a full and ongoing catalog of threads related to that mod.

My problem is that I don't know all of this basic information for each of the mods that are out there, or even which mods are entitled to be included.  This is what I'm hoping someone can help me out with.


____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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hippox89
hippox89


Famous Hero
posted February 16, 2014 01:20 AM
Edited by hippox89 at 02:24, 16 Feb 2014.

Corribus said:

Current Version: 1.0
Development status: Inactive
Download at: show links


Maybe such subject-to-change info would be better left out of the introduction thread. I think such information would maybe be best to have in the official project threads, instead. It'd also require less moderation interference and basically keeping it more simple.

And just to be perfectly clear, you will retire the current FAQ thread in favour for this new introduction/FAQ thread, correct?

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rubanani
rubanani


Hired Hero
posted February 16, 2014 03:18 AM
Edited by rubanani at 03:23, 16 Feb 2014.

I am a newbie and I totally like your idea Corribus! I am a huge fan of Heroes 3 and I play HoTA a lot these days. HoTA is the only expansion/mod I installed because I honestly didn't understand what VCMI or ERA II could offer me. Like: I didn't knew that ERA II was a 'panel board'(whatever that means) for WoG. First, I thought that 'ERM' was a mod or something or a synonym for ERA.

I think that -for instance- the following information would be usefull for the newbieguide:
- Information on all the independable/seperate mods for heroes 3 (of course: WoG, ERA II, VCMI and HoTA.. but are there more?). And maybe hyperlinks to lists of mods that are dependable of one of these main projects (like the list thread from salamandre about ERA II mods).
- Clear information about the differences between these mods/projects. The lists of features in the different mainthreads can be confusing and leaving the reader incapable of chosing between these core mods. An emphasis on the differences between the projects, or clear definitions would be welcome.
- Please make sure to provide clear information about WoG(a lot of newbies probably come to HC to search for news about WoG): 'the original WoG project is inactive since (year), but others started were WoG team finished, resulting in worthy successor(s) like ERA II.'


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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted February 16, 2014 07:47 AM

^Yes, yes, it would be all cool, but SOMEONE has to do that. Things don't magically appear just because they are requested.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 16, 2014 08:10 AM

hippox89 said:

And just to be perfectly clear, you will retire the current FAQ thread in favour for this new introduction/FAQ thread, correct?

Yes. If we get that far.

In other news, I gave Orzie a +QP in the Succession Wars thread for general contribution to the project and numerous interesting posts and screenshots.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 16, 2014 08:56 AM

I think the easiest way to do what you suggest is this: You prepare the skeleton of the thread, writing out the requested titles and leaving out the content parts blank. We fill out the content by posting the info (nobody knows about EVERY mod in detail, it isnt one person who'll be able to help you but rather all of us here and there.)

You then delete our posts and edit the main post, filling in the sent info.  

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 16, 2014 05:06 PM

Ok, I can do that.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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qoty
qoty


Adventuring Hero
wandering hero
posted February 19, 2014 06:33 PM
Edited by qoty at 21:05, 19 Feb 2014.

Hello guys,
I browsed through forum(well, not the whole forum ) and discovered that it lacks a thread about "news" in the world of Heroes 3. I mean a thread aimed only for information about new mods being prepared, new versions and updates of the old ones, new ERA version, maybe a word concerning tournaments or other Heroes 3 events etc. Players could get informed here and modders could promote their new creations. Most news are spread across dozens of threads, so one oriented only for this theme could help a lot. It's only my idea .
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Freedom comes at a price

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted March 02, 2014 06:35 PM

Who's now in charge for the forums? Last update for VCMI thread (0.94) I sent was ignored.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 10, 2014 01:53 AM
Edited by Corribus at 02:38, 10 Mar 2014.

Did you send it to my email or what? I never received one from you until today. I will try to get your changes updated today.

I had out of town visitors for the last week; I apologize for my lack of presence during this time.

Now, a rant:

For those who think I'm a "lazy moderator"*, know this: I would be more than happy to put effort and time into organizing this place, but see no value in doing so until you all demonstrate that you can get along with each other. Creating stickied threads and so forth is going to take a lot of effort on my part, and what I see from much of this H3 modding community is just destructive behavior. You derail threads with useless bickering and name-calling. You do not support modding projects that aren't your own pet favorites, and indeed do everything you can to undermine the activity in these "competing" areas, instead of building a self-supporting network of modders who can work together to make all projects excellent. Disagreements are not handled in a civil way - accusations of thievery are everywhere. Criticism is rarely constructive. I get at least three or four complaints a week related to the WoG forum, usually demands that I penalize someone else for some perceived slight.

My job description is to keep order. That means to enforce the rules. That means to keep threads clean and penalize people who violate the code of conduct. THAT IS IT! And right now, it's all I have time for, because all my moderating time is spend handling petty disputes between all of you. I wish I could dedicate my few hours a week doing more interesting things like putting together informational threads on each WoG project, but no, I get to spend it all sitting people in the corner, deleting long tracts of off-topic arguments, deciding who to penalize and silence, and etc. And note, my job description does not include writing long descriptions of what is the definition of appropriate behavior. That's already spelled out nicely in the Code of Conduct.

If you want this to be a better place, don't expect me to put in the energy all by myself. Why should I lift a finger to help you all if you can't even help yourselves by treating each other with respect. Until that happens, all I can be here is merely a policeman.

ALSO: If you have a disagreement with the way I handle something, this thread is the one you should use to voice it. I consider combative, off-topic behavior in other threads to be a serious violation of the Code of Conduct and will respond accordingly. I am willing to listen to constructive feedback, provided it is posted in the correct place.

*And I can't tell you how much I resent that. The amount of hours I've put into being a moderator here at HC are practically beyond count.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 18, 2014 05:08 AM

@artu

Quote:
That's exactly why the few people who invest time in this stuff are valuable. Knowing you, he could have said something less sarcastic like "please compress files before uploading and give a single link, it will be easier for both of us" and knowing him, you could have just take it easy instead of making a big deal out of it. But the point is, there was nothing violating the CoC between your conversation. This trying to make everybody behave nice and get along superb policy as if they're 5 simply backfires, people eventually get annoyed and leave or post significantly less than before.


1. You have something to say to me, say it to me. Don't clutter up the forums with oblique criticisms.

Quote:
He didnt threaten you and that's very obvious. He talked about shooting you in the manner of "what else was I supposed to do, shoot you!" That's nothing violating the CoC, if you ask me.  


2. Wrong. It *was* violating the CoC because it was off-topic junk posting.  Apparently you haven't read the Code of Conduct in a while. Here's a reminder for you:
Quote:
4) NO spam, junk posts, thread killing, flooding or flaming.
Junk post is a post that fails to address the topic of discussion and fails to provide intellectual or humorous stimulation, or put simply: off topic, not interesting, not funny.


Perhaps you can explain to me how an argument over whether shooting someone is a joke in Europe is close to the topic of WoG graphics. Because I'm failing to see the connection. It wasn't the shooting comment itself that required moderation, but the page of discussion afterwards (that was headed nowhere good) that needed to be dealt with. Beyond that, even if saying you'll shoot someone is a good-natured jibe in Europe, it's not so everywhere, and a bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt everyone to learn. Of course, I'm willing to listen to explanations and I am understanding of miscommunications - but either way the whole conversation was off-topic and didn't belong in the thread. [Although, I've known Salamandre for quite a long time and I am pretty sure he wasn't intending to insult anyone.]

In any case: The rule is to not drive a thread off-topic. If you don't like that rule, either don't post here or ask Valeriy to change it. But until he does change it, I will enforce it because that's what I've been asked to do. If you don't care for my interpretation of the rules, that is what the feedback thread is for. I will cheerfully explain to you why a particular moderating action is taken in any circumstance, provided the question is posed in the right place for it. But belligerently and repeatedly challenging me in the forum-proper is in itself off-topic posting and thus likewise against the rules, which is why (after several warnings) Hobbit was silenced.

3. All that said, I do let minor infractions slide, but when I have several people send me HCMs COMPLAINING about rules being broken, I cannot just ignore it. I will not reveal who complained in this instance but the fact is that rules were broken, complaints were made, punitive actions were taken. That's how it works. I think frankly the punitive action in this case was fairly light, that being a dozen off-topic posts deleted and end of fuss. Strictly speaking all involved should have been penalized, because it's not like I haven't already issued warnings like 100 times already in the last few months for off-topic and disrupting behavior elsewhere in the WoG forum. But as I said I know Salamandre and I also know Fred, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and just cleaned up the mess.

The gist of your complaint here seems to be that enforcing the rules, and particularly that restricting off-topic posting, is excessive and is causing productive community members to leave. I think that's a load of crap quite frankly. Some of the same said members have been amongst the most loud-spoken when it comes to keeping order, particularly in the HotA thread. For that matter, I need not remind you that the reason I was brought here as a moderator in the first place was because Cepheus went AWOL and a lot of people were complaining about what anarchy this place had become.  In Hobbit's particular case, he was angry because I wouldn't give him a three hundred page treatise on every possible scenario or behavior that's against the rules. I'm sorry, I just don't buy this feigned ignorance of what kind of behavior is expected here. If that and/or his subsequent silencing is why he's not been around lately: oh well.

But since you asked, and just so there's no confusion, here's my basic philosophy:

1. The Code of Conduct is simple. Read it. Follow it.
2. I am willing to let occasional and minor infractions of the Code slide because I don't want this to be an authoritarian regime, but if other members complain about a rule infraction, I will render a judgment and enforce it, if necessary.
3. This isn't anarchy. As a moderator, my job is to moderate. That means keeping threads orderly and on track. I will delete long tracts of off-topic posts, particularly if they are combative and/or hostile, and double-particularly if other members are complaining about it.  Keep in mind, too, that I understand that not all off-topic posting is deliberate or malicious. It happens. Regardless, I reserve the right to delete posts I feel are off-topic and steering a thread away from its intended purpose. This approach to moderation related to off-topic posting comes from Valeriy himself, so if you think I'm going rogue on this one, you're pretty much dead wrong.

In the end, even if people are leaving because they can't live with the rules here that must be followed, well - it's a free internet. I wish them luck wherever they go. Salamandre and I have been colleagues of sorts for quite some time, a guy I respect immensely, so I agree his presence will be missed. But he's been telling me he's ready to move on for ages now, and he has a rather pessimistic view on WoG's future, so it's no great surprise to me. For myself I don't think these rules are so onerous or the cause of any real general misgivings, but YMMV. Whatever, the rules are here to stay. I didn't make them, but it is my job to make sure they're followed. In that I think I'm fair but firm. Feel free to disagree.

(The ultimate surprise to me is that I have 10,000 times more headaches moderating a forum about mods to a decade-old computer game than I do a forum dedicated to politics and religion. Figure that one out! In fact... I think it's a time for a signature change.)
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 18, 2014 06:18 AM
Edited by artu at 06:21, 18 Mar 2014.

Well, this is quite an elaborate reply, thanks for taking the time. Let me begin by saying, overall, I do admire your moderation but I think over the last months you've been overdoing some of the things you normally keep in good balance. I have no idea how many complaints you get by personal messages. To me, to pm a mod and ask for someone to get a penalty is some very very very distant last resort (which I've never done till now), so, maybe I'm having a hard time picturing the amount of punishments you've been asked to execute. Still, if that is what causes you to be a little more strict on such matters than you used to be, it does cause members to post less all the same, and usually it's people with a sense of sarcasm who get the cold feet.

Now about the specific matter, I'm just a by-stander on it but this is how I see it:
Quote:
Perhaps you can explain to me how an argument over whether shooting someone is a joke in Europe is close to the topic of WoG graphics. Because I'm failing to see the connection. It wasn't the shooting comment itself that required moderation, but the page of discussion afterwards (that was headed nowhere good) that needed to be dealt with. Beyond that, even if saying you'll shoot someone is a good-natured jibe in Europe, it's not so everywhere, and a bit of cultural sensitivity wouldn't hurt everyone to learn. Of course, I'm willing to listen to explanations and I am understanding of miscommunications - but either way the whole conversation was off-topic and didn't belong in the thread. [Although, I've known Salamandre for quite a long time and I am pretty sure he wasn't intending to insult anyone.]

I think Fred felt unappreciated rather than insulted. Under normal circumstances, he wouldn't mind something like "what else was I gonna do, shoot you!" It's not even a joke, it's just an expression and I've heard Americans use similar phrases a million times. Anyway, they were not junk posting or anything, the argument was flamed by the task, it was about loading images, and in a few posts, they were about to get back on track.
Quote:
In any case: The rule is to not drive a thread off-topic. If you don't like that rule, either don't post here or ask Valeriy to change it. But until he does change it, I will enforce it because that's what I've been asked to do. If you don't care for my interpretation of the rules, that is what the feedback thread is for. I will cheerfully explain to you why a particular moderating action is taken in any circumstance, provided the question is posed in the right place for it. But belligerently and repeatedly challenging me in the forum-proper is in itself off-topic posting and thus likewise against the rules, which is why (after several warnings) Hobbit was silenced.


As I said, I think they were about to solve it by themselves and when you interfered, this time Sal felt unappreciated, since he spent like ages on Wog, both on his own projects and helping new ERM users and so on and he was just talking like he always did. (However, now that you mention it, I do agree he asks for a lot of moderation on Wog forums and it's kind of a double standard to be so edgy when he's the one being moderated).
Quote:
The gist of your complaint here seems to be that enforcing the rules, and particularly that restricting off-topic posting, is excessive and is causing productive community members to leave. I think that's a load of crap quite frankly. Some of the same said members have been amongst the most loud-spoken when it comes to keeping order, particularly in the HotA thread. For that matter, I need not remind you that the reason I was brought here as a moderator in the first place was because Cepheus went AWOL and a lot of people were complaining about what anarchy this place had become.  In Hobbit's particular case, he was angry because I wouldn't give him a three hundred page treatise on every possible scenario or behavior that's against the rules. I'm sorry, I just don't buy this feigned ignorance of what kind of behavior is expected here. If that and/or his subsequent silencing is why he's not been around lately: oh well.

If you remember, my first (and probably the only for a long time, if I remember right) objection /criticism to your moderation was that you are a little oversensitive about this off-topic business. If I've encountered other mods warning people to stay on topic like 5 or 6 times tops, I've seen you do it 40 times at least. I think allowing the conversations to evolve in their natural direction more, of course not by totally letting the subject loose, would be better.

And for last but not for the least
Quote:
You have something to say to me, say it to me. Don't clutter up the forums with oblique criticisms.

That was not my intention. When Bersy said Sal left, I got upset, both because I like him as a friend and also he was the only one left with the adequate qualifications who kept helping with the ERM scripts and modding problems and hung around all the time. The ERM section is an orphan now with both JimV and Sal gone. So, it was kind of a spontaneous rant.

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fred79
fred79


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 18, 2014 07:19 AM
Edited by fred79 at 07:34, 18 Mar 2014.

artu said:
I think Fred felt unappreciated rather than insulted. Under normal circumstances, he wouldn't mind something like "what else was I gonna do, shoot you!" It's not even a joke, it's just an expression and I've heard Americans use similar phrases a million times. Anyway, they were not junk posting or anything, the argument was flamed by the task, it was about loading images, and in a few posts, they were about to get back on track.


i felt both unappreciated and insulted, artu(and btw, you're not quoting exactly what sal said. you make it sound much more like it was a joke, than how sal actually put it across). sal has a way of talking to people that is rude, however you look at it. moreso, when i offered my help from the beginning, and he started insulting me on page one. i'm not the first person sal has been rude to, and i'm certainly not the first to voice that towards him. i was willing to put aside my anger at his repeated arrogance towards me, to continue to work with him, and he countered that with what could be construed as a threat, no matter how far-fetched it might have been to follow through with. i don't take threats lightly, and anyone who has been paying attention to my personality in my time here at hc, knows that. in real life, a threat is something i feel compelled to exterminate with extreme prejudice. because anyone else might think what sal said was a joke, is immaterial. when things become disagreeable between myself and someone else, anything even resembling a threat is taken at face value. i stop kidding then. sal should have known that, as i have displayed my reaction to such behavior before, on this same forum.

i will agree, though, that the argument was already over. i had refused to work with sal further due to his behavior, and that was that. corribus, as i see it, was just deleting unneeded posts, and trying to stop an issue like that from happening again. but it was simply a disagreement about working behavior, that got out of hand with a foolish comment, then was settled, before a mod was introduced to the situation. i had already been looking at the situation in a rear-view mirror, when the now-immaterial posts were deleted.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 18, 2014 07:34 AM

Fred, it was not a threat or a joke, just an expression. Nobody in their right mind, interprets something like "there were 3 things I could do, sit silently, joke about it or take a plane and come shoot you" (there, I paraphrased it more accurately) as a threat, especially if the context is giving three internet links instead of one. It is very clearly ironic and means "what else was I going to do, shoot you" This "I don't take that well, I don't take this well" attitude of yours is childish and paranoid. We don't have to watch our tongue more than usual (CoC standards) just because you have a tendency to flame drama and suck the living joy out of every little innuendo or sarcastic comment.

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