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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Harry Potter - Cynical insight
Thread: Harry Potter - Cynical insight This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 29, 2009 12:10 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:13, 29 Aug 2009.

Thanks kip!

Elvin,I always thought Rowling had some plan, but the details, she changed them as she wrote the books, hence so many plotholes. The timechanger should never make it into books, and that's perhaps why she decided to get rid of it in book 5, after she realized how much of a broken plot device it is, but it still is a horrible logic hole, as the item grants pretty much godly power against guys like Voldemort. I'm really surprised she hasn't thought about it when she first introduced the item. It was lame even back then anyway.

As for the walls, I simply don't understand why so many stupid convenience rules. Like in my first review: To make something logical impossible, the author makes a weird rule, like "you can't move that wall because it's not possible" or "you can't transmute food because it is one of the five untrasmutable things" (I will focus on that in book7 insight ). Those things are a reason why I think her plot construction is horrible: Those are just lame excuses so that the plot may work as she intends, bypassing logic that says people should gank on Voldy with timechangers and Dumbledore should remove a piece of wall to enter the pipes. To prevent that, she makes lame rules and a ton of coincidences so the plot becomes what she intended it to be - a lame excuse to allow Potter to get some spotlight.
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lucky_dwarf
lucky_dwarf


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posted August 30, 2009 04:02 AM
Edited by lucky_dwarf at 04:04, 30 Aug 2009.

Well at least we can hope that if Rowling makes another magical series it will have less plot holes

anyway i have some comments:

Quote:
Why can't they just go at the muggleborn wizards' houses, throw a random spell and flee?


Because someone would obviously remember who it was/ if they cant remember details they(M.O.M.) can tap into theyre memories via the pensive(im not sure, is the pensive an exotical magic type object or a very common cuz then it would render the argument useless)

and if someone would cast a forget spell than there would be some sort of sign(like slughorn and his memory of the horcrux)

besides the ministry can tell which spell was used, if spells that only caused bad things were cast the ministry would just ignore them.(of course if good spells kept happening the ministry could probe the underage wizard to see if they have a memory of casting the spell)

Other wise:

Fake quote:
Quote:
A few attempts and voila, Your the one getting a fine of 5 galleons for muggle baiting.


Quote:
Anyway, isn't that kind of racist? Muggleborns are screwed, and clean blood guys can throw spells as much as they like, if their parents allow it


First of all racist is not the word your looking for *waves hand like a jedi*

Its not racist because theire same ethnic group. You need to make a new word for that

Secondly im surprised that The M.O.M. doesent have some kind of test to see how high your magic levels are(suposing that theire power isnt unlimited) or check theyre memories to see what they been up too.

Quote:
why do they even torture themselves with brooms and carpets? Get something more convenient to fly on. Fly on a damned armchair. At least it's comfortable.


Have you ever heard of Tradition!?

It must have started some time in the middle ages because witches/wizards are always depicted riding brooms.

Another reason:

Arthur Weasley specifically said something in the second book on magic carpets being a "Muggle Artefact"

The same would hold true for a flying couch, car or bed

Thirdly:

Broomsticks are for traveling(But have also been sidetracked to sports)

Everything has to be

Quote:
"Honed to Aerodynamic perfection"


And couches wouldn't be that Aerodynamic

Fourthly:

Brooms were never described in detail. Maybe they had some sort special seat designed to neutralize crotch problems.

Quote:

Again, whatever. Skipping Potter's visit at Weasley's, which was pretty uneventful, we move on to his flight to school. Again, their flying car. What puzzles me is that they actually see the train. I mean, isn't the train supposed to be hidden from muggles? Why does it even start from London, why do they need a hidden platform in the mugglecrowded place? Why couldn't they gather at a different spot, where hordes of people don't see funky individuals carrying caged owls and stuff? Like, a hidden station at suburbs?


Why London? Cuz its the capital and everyone knows where it is, People wont suspect a huge concentration of people to be there because guess what? Its the capital.

If it were some obscure station in the suburbs not only will people get lost on the way and be late to school but a crowd of wizards would stick out like a sore thumb.

Lastly Its cheaper to build one huge train in the capital than to build a hundred of them leading to Hogwarts.

Quote:
Dumbledore hints he also knows it. And wait... that's it? He knows, and just sits on his cozy armchair, drinking whiskey and whining at his superiors who want to overthrow him?


Rowling made an epic logic fail there, no excuse, but he must be loosing his grip on things if hes 200 years old

Quote:
Like, there is no access to those damn pipes, anywhere in the castle? You can't just remove a piece of wall and enter them?


Do you really think a man can fit through the pipes?

The real plot hole would be that a snake that size can fit through the pluming, How big are those pipes id like to know.

Secondly if someone would want to kill all the mugleborns just send the snake in the center of the Quiditch stadium while everyone  is there and *BAM* the whole school dead.

Quote:
Wizards must be idiots


No comment
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted August 30, 2009 09:40 AM

Quote:
Because someone would obviously remember who it was/ if they cant remember details they(M.O.M.) can tap into theyre memories via the pensive(im not sure, is the pensive an exotical magic type object or a very common cuz then it would render the argument useless)and if someone would cast a forget spell than there would be some sort of sign(like slughorn and his memory of the horcrux)

besides the ministry can tell which spell was used, if spells that only caused bad things were cast the ministry would just ignore them.(of course if good spells kept happening the ministry could probe the underage wizard to see if they have a memory of casting the spell)


Still what's the whole idea with the detectors, they are lame and problematic for those poor muggleborn suckers for the most. And I don't see a point of them, they are a badly constructed plot device. Sure there are those veritaserums are whatever and other ways to make people talk, but why to bother with an inaccurate piece of snow that can lead to blaming an innocent person because someone abuses how much of a snow the device is, as I described?

Quote:
The same would hold true for a flying couch, car or bed


Yeah, cause muggles never used brooms. Lol.

Quote:
Thirdly:

Broomsticks are for traveling(But have also been sidetracked to sports)

Everything has to be

Quote:
"Honed to Aerodynamic perfection"


And couches wouldn't be that Aerodynamic


it's just a lame way of introducing kiddy legends of witches flying on broomsticks into a more "serious" world which ends:
a) stupid
b) forced
c) illogical
d) out of place (the world is too serious for that kind of snow.)

I'd rather have it either dropped, or remained as sport, entirely. As a way of travel, it's just lame.

Quote:
Why London? Cuz its the capital and everyone knows where it is, People wont suspect a huge concentration of people to be there because guess what? Its the capital.

If it were some obscure station in the suburbs not only will people get lost on the way and be late to school but a crowd of wizards would stick out like a sore thumb.

Lastly Its cheaper to build one huge train in the capital than to build a hundred of them leading to Hogwarts.


Make one that heads from London, just not from the center. I mean, aren't they supposed to be undercover in muggle world? Who ever thought about forcing people to carry caged owls in the middle of the capital? Getting lost is pretty lame excuse when people can teleport, you know.

Quote:
Do you really think a man can fit through the pipes?

The real plot hole would be that a snake that size can fit through the pluming, How big are those pipes id like to know.

Secondly if someone would want to kill all the mugleborns just send the snake in the center of the Quiditch stadium while everyone  is there and *BAM* the whole school dead.


Not all of the school is muggleborn, but yeah, those were BIG PIPES that a snake of that size could fit in them. So potentially nothing prevented Dumbledore from entering them, except stupid rules invented by R to make it impossible for him and possible for our retarded scarface.

Quote:
No comment


The way R portrayed them, they are first class idiots.
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kipshasz
kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted August 30, 2009 06:18 PM

Quote:

The way R portrayed them, they are first class idiots.

Just because.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted December 06, 2010 11:56 AM

Time for the book 3.
Prisoner of Azkaban

This is - imho - the best Potter book. Maybe because Rowling quit trying to conjure a plot that makes minimum sense and focused at what she's best at? Creating atmosphere. Yeah, there is no Voldy in that tome, and because of that, it's a million times better. That's because it's common knowledge that what's hidden is a hundred times more scary/climatic than a bad guy throwing killing spells all around.

The only problem I have with this books is - like always - the plot device used, and the ending.

Through all the book, we are told a pretty decent... no, half decent... aww, screw it, we're told a crappy story about a guy that escaped the prison. I actually liked the concept that the thought of him being innocent prevented him from losing his mind, though, but it's ruined at the end with that ridiculous plot twist. But lets leave that for later.

Again (-_-), it begs for a time changer. Black escaped? Who cares. Timechange, grab him by the hair and throw him back to the cell. Problem solved?

Oh, whatever. They get a new DADA teacher which introduces them to a demon that becomes what you fear the most. Okay... cool concept, but not really that logical. What I fear falling from great height to death? What if I'm claustrophobic and fear tight places? What if I'm psychopath and I cannot feel fear? I know, it's a book for children, still...

Besides, what kind of teacher is that? That demon seems to be able to gain the powers of anything he changes into. We see that Harry gets "normally" affected by magical bad memory displayer. So, if someone accidently feared Voldemort throwing Avada Kevadra at him, how would mr. Lupin explain death at his lesson? Pretty naive to put so much faith in other people's fears. What, can't he imagine someone ELSE than harry may fear Voldemort the most, seeing that most of the folks are terrified to even hear his name? Yeah, I know, he's a person incapable of logical thinking wizard. That explains all.

To battle it, Harry gets to learn a powerful spells that makes problems for advanced wizards (But he can't master a hiccup-causing spell. Yeah, logic.) And has some encounter with Terrifying Unbeatable Random Demon (T.U.R.D.) where he basically hears some screams and passes out every time he sees one. ookay. (So someone with a happy, carefree life would be TURD-immune? Seems so!)Not that bad, actually, taking all that BS Rowling fed us with up to this point.

Then we are made painfully aware that we're still reading HP. The map. The map drawn by four students, seemingly smart, that gave them full knowledge about the castle and its inhabitants. Okay. Seeing that there is a wacko murderer that somehow manages to slip past the guards and nearly murder someone, that would be a great thing to have, wouldn't it? For Dumbledore or any other security guy, even that idiot Filch. But.. guess what. Dumbledore can't draw such a map, or at least never even thinks about it, and neither does any other wizard in the castle. But of course, four students (one of which was basically useless) are able to. Do those wizards suddenly get dumbed down after leaving school, or something?

Whatever, it's obvious it's Frodo Harry that has to wield the best magical toys, even if he barely can tell the difference between a wand and a stool.

However, the worst is yet to come. The ending. Stupid as usual. When Harry meets Black and suddenly Black becomes the good guy and Pettigrew the bad, it makes no sense. When reading it the first time, I actually thought they are ****ing with Potter's tiny mind. (That would be awesome, actually.) But no. That rushed, illogical story of Black is actually true. It's Pettigrew that suddenly has enough power to nuke half of the street, outsmart a superior wizard Black undoubtly is, and even perform that stupid stunt. O-kay, still not as stupid as Crabbe casting Avada Kedavra, but close. It's never explained why Black stood there laughing and not just polymorphed and vanished, and how comes there were "eye witnesses" that saw BLACK killing those people. What, Pettigrew modified their memory, killed some muggles and THEN vanished? Maybe he was riding an unicycle blindfolded while juggling glass, too?

Either way, Black's now good, Pettigrew escapes, Snape screwes things all over... aw, screw this. The stupidest plot device EVER is coming. Yeah, the infamous timechanger.. everything that I said before and will say in next reviews is not enough to describe how awfully stupid is the time changer in such a story. Virtually everything can be prevented, from Voldy killing Harry's parents to Voldy ascending to power or even getting born at all. I wish I had one myself, I would go back in time to prevent Rowling from creating this horrible plot device.

So, Potter changes the time, suddenly has enough power to defeat a million TURDs (Being seemingly unaffected this time. Convenient.). TURDs pick exactly THIS moment to try to eat someone's soul (they had only a year to wait for exactly THIS moment), but nothing too bad, if it wasn't for that stupid plot device, it would be almost acceptable, actually.

All in all, this is the best book, so I won't really have much to complain about except those things. It's the upcoming books that REALLY took a dump on logic, this one, bar that horrible plot device, was actually good. Yeah. If you have any Potter books to read, try this one. The rest? I recommend the garbage bin. Best place for them.
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veco
veco


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who am I?
posted December 06, 2010 12:04 PM

You should pick Jakub Wędrowycz series to ease the pain, Doom
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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


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Elvin's Darkside
posted December 08, 2010 06:05 PM

The review is made of pure win!
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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posted June 14, 2013 06:16 PM

I agree book 3 is the least ridiculous, it was always my favorite. I even liked the others when I was like 12, but now... well, I'll let DF tell us about them if he has the time .
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted June 14, 2013 09:10 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:12, 14 Jun 2013.

Thanks for reminding me that I have yet to pick on four catastrophic Frodo Potter books.

And have no fear, I will. In fact, I'm going to laugh about the next one now. As it probably has the dumbest plot device (second only to timechanger) EVER.

So... yeah. Book 4. Goblet of Vodka. Or fire. whatever.

Let me sum up the plot with this simple, enthusiastic pic:


So... the plan is to make Potter touch the cup. The cup that has been turned into a teleporter, because Rowling loves stupid plot devices you cannot teleport via spells in Hogwash. Look at the meticulously created plan: A guy has to swap places with a dangerous Warlock hunter, learn his habits and way of living IN A COUPLE HOURS to fool people he knew for years (totally possible, except that even with magic it seems a load of crap), make him teach at school, make him live among his enemies and fool them every day, not making a single bad move that would expose or at least alert people around him, make him trick powerful artifacts (goblet of whiskey, for once), make him work with those idiotic half-brained excuses for Wizards like Crabbe, Goyle and Long-butthole (that is probably the hardest part) trying to teach them anything, make him carry Frodo Potter through all the tasks of the tournament (seeing that Potter's brain is smaller than his manhood, that's REALLY hard), make him think about all the extremely complicated ways of guiding Potter into figuring the correct answer, finally, make sure Potter actually WINS (keep in mind that with all the help he got, he barely did... not that it was surprising), so he can FINALLY touch the cup and get ported to Voldy.

Okay. Now, let me ask a perfectly legit question that just begs to be answered:

Why didn't he simply turn a cup of tea, or an old book into a teleporter, ask Potter to join him for a walk, ask Potter to pick it up for him (Potter would obviously obey), and BAM, Potter's in Voldy's hands, preferably around the evening, while Dumbledore is probably taking a nap or watching gay porn over the internet? Obviously, that's 9001 times easier than going through all those painful, super-hard tasks and guiding the worst wizard ever to win the tournament? And take a look - even with all the guidance, trickery and cheating, Potter STILL got beaten by Diggory, and only his stupidity honor made him get ported to Voldy. So... yeah. I mean, this is probably the stupidest, worst thought plot EVER. Look how utterly terrible it is in complication, whereas a simple and pretty much unavoidable answer awaits at any moment available, without anyone even thinking about any sort of trouble. Skip the stupid tournament, skip making all eyes focused on Potter, just ask him to join you for a walk, let him pick the teleporter and VOILA, done.

There was a lot more idiocy in the book, of course, but this... this is literally the worst part, which makes everything that has happened in the book look stupid, forced, childish and unnecessary. A lot of stupid BS happens, for example - Dumbledore's phoenix magically gets to Riddle's graveyard in like 5 minutes (if the bird knew where to go, why didn't his master go as well - along with some bodyguards? @_@), but let's skip that and just laugh at the BEST plot ever.

Potter stinks. The badges didn't lie.

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Dj
Dj


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posted June 14, 2013 09:32 PM
Edited by Dj at 21:41, 14 Jun 2013.

If i remember correctly [i had read the books in the day they were released so it's a long time; i was a huge harry potter fan, just like i was a heroes 3 fan but due to their unpopularity in my country they faded away from my interests], fake mad-eye (barty jr) put a spell on the goblet to make it a portkey (?). Also, if memory serves me well, the ritual had to be at some point, so mad-eye couldn t invite harry to a cup of tea anytime and if he DID invite him in the night of the ritual he couldn t because he was a professor, he had duties (at the tournament; so he couldn't be missing), he had to blend in to remove all suspicions and gain everybody's trust.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted June 14, 2013 09:41 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:44, 14 Jun 2013.

Well, how convenient that the ritual had to be exactly THAT night. I mean, couldn't he do it a night before that?

And the trust wouldn't really matter anymore if Potter simply picked his teleporter and went straight into the ritual, eh? I mean, mission complete - fast, efficient, and nowhere near as stupid as he actually did.

Everything beats the convoluted plan of making Potter win a tournament so he can touch something and be ported away. By the description of it, he can be ported by anything - way to go to pick the hardest object for him to acquire (and make a gamble of it: will he or won't he?) Notice that had Diggory been more self-centered, the whole plan would completely fail and Voldy would achieve absolutely nothing. Worst plan ever, period.

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Dj
Dj


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Always loyal to HC
posted June 14, 2013 09:50 PM
Edited by Dj at 22:22, 14 Jun 2013.

Quote:
Well, how convenient that the ritual had to be exactly THAT night. I mean, couldn't he do it a night before that?


actually, the tournament doesn't last for a number of days..let's say 5 days/task. Fake mad-eye took care to make potter touch the goblet in THAT exact night. If it weren't for fake-eye, harry would've touched the goblet, like you said, the night before [or any other night] because being in a maze isn't a simple thing.

Quote:
And the trust wouldn't really matter anymore if Potter simply picked his teleporter and went straight into the ritual, eh? I mean, mission complete - fast, efficient, and nowhere near as stupid as he actually did.

Everything beats the convoluted plan of making Potter win a tournament.

would you trust a NEW professor? knowing how the other defense against the dark arts professors were? even if it was a trust-able professor for hogwarts, how do you know he wouldn't trick potter with his guidance so he can help cedric win? [knowing how much potter was hated at that time] He had to gain potter s trust so he would listen to him.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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posted June 14, 2013 10:28 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 22:29, 14 Jun 2013.

Still, you have to admit things were played out (especially i book 4)to make old Pothead the hero even though he's no better than any other student. I mean, fake Moody had to help him through every task, it was OK when I was 12 but now it's ridiculous.

And young Crouch still could've used any other object as the portkey, why go through all the trouble to make sure the dark lord's hated enemy wins the tournament when he could've turned anything else into a portkey and make him touch it... it's not like Harry would refuse having a cup of tea with one of the most known and admired Aurors.
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Dj
Dj


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Always loyal to HC
posted June 14, 2013 10:41 PM
Edited by Dj at 22:41, 14 Jun 2013.


He is 'better' just by being the chosen one. He has a + for that. What other object in that specific night, when the ritual had to be done? The first branch he sees in the maze, the moon? what other objects could you possibly see in that night, in that maze? Ok let's just say that the Auror status gives him complete reliability, how i this logic to you:

fake-eye: say harry! how would you like a cup of tea?
harry: err...professor...*raises shoulders*
fake-eye: i know you are just about to enter the maze and everybody is watching you enthusiastically but c'mon...i really want a cup of tea with you TONIGHT...it's a special night *winks his good eye*


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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


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posted June 14, 2013 10:44 PM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 22:45, 14 Jun 2013.

And nobody said that the date for the ritual is set in the stone, it didn't have to coincide with the third round, in fact, Potter did not have to be champion of Hogwarts at all for voldy's plan to work. The whole setup was pointless.

Face it, all of book 4 is just another attempt at making our teenaged neighborhood wizard look cool



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Dj
Dj


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Always loyal to HC
posted June 14, 2013 11:57 PM



Probably there wasn't an exact date...like i said i read the books a long time ago, but i remember there was something about that exact night...moving on. Voldemort couldn't do anything on his own in the malnutritioned baby form so he put peter to do everything, from the setting to the magical potion. Imagine how difficult it is to make that kind of potion (that ressurects an almost dead being) if hermione needs months to make a polyjuice one. Also i think the tournament was an excuse for fake-eye to get closer to harry and gain his trust AND to weaken him before he meets the dark lord.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted June 15, 2013 12:53 AM

Weaken him? What for

Heh brings back memories, thanks for the read doomforge
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted June 15, 2013 01:01 AM

DF (and others), you may like Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. I strongly recommend it.
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Dj
Dj


Promising
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Always loyal to HC
posted June 15, 2013 01:36 AM

Quote:
Weaken him? What for

That was a rhetorical question right?

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xerox
xerox


Promising
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posted June 15, 2013 04:24 AM

Didn't Voldemort want to turn over Harry to his side at that point? Maybe he had Harry do all those tasks to see if he was worthy of being his apprentice or something.
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