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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: About Politics: Greens
Thread: About Politics: Greens This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · NEXT»
Lexxan
Lexxan


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Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 09, 2009 11:08 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 23:10, 09 Apr 2009.

About Politics: The Green Wing

Okay, this will become a thread about the Green Ideology

According to Wiki, the green ideology is defined as followed:
Quote:
Green politics is a political ideology which places a high importance on ecological and environmental goals, and on achieving these goals through broad-based, grassroots, participatory democracy


So, do you go Green or not? A nice area of discussion, is it not?

Let the Discussion begin!
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted April 09, 2009 11:11 PM

I'm a green liberal. I support a carbon tax to discourage pollution.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 09, 2009 11:44 PM

Quote:
I support a carbon tax to discourage pollution.


Freakiong hypocrat, Carbon Tax does not help. Forced heavy capping of how much you can pollut does the job(produce over X and we scrap your factory's and fine you heavly).
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 10, 2009 12:15 AM

A carbon tax does help. Especially if it's high. And if you like caps, then look into cap-and-trade.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


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Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 10, 2009 12:16 AM
Edited by Lexxan at 00:18, 10 Apr 2009.

High Taxes? and you call yourself a liberal lol!!

That's so typical for Green: Forbid anything that isn't to their liking or at least discourage it by Taxing it harshly. Exactly how Green operates in Belgium (and they are crypto-communists)
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 10, 2009 12:18 AM
Edited by mvassilev at 00:19, 10 Apr 2009.

I'm not saying that I want a high carbon tax (although I would favor a green tax shift, one in which income taxes are lowered but the gas tax is raised), but if you want to see dramatic, immediate results from a carbon tax, make it high. But a reasonable carbon tax has good results in the long run.

Ecologism shouldn't be a lifestyle. Pollution should be discouraged through taxes. New technology should decrease use of resources. But pain is not gain.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


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Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 10, 2009 12:22 AM

Ecologism itself is utopian. I'd never prefer it to Liberalism, Conservatism or even socialism.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 10, 2009 12:31 AM

Lex:
So socialism isn't utopian too? And conservatism and even liberalism (see my utopia thread) have their utopian components as well.

Father:
You know, your LGBT thread has significant political components as well.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted April 10, 2009 12:36 AM

No place is utopia

Anyone who studied ancient greek here?
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 10, 2009 12:55 AM

Quote:
I'm not saying that I want a high carbon tax (although I would favor a green tax shift, one in which income taxes are lowered but the gas tax is raised), but if you want to see dramatic, immediate results from a carbon tax, make it high. But a reasonable carbon tax has good results in the long run.

Ecologism shouldn't be a lifestyle. Pollution should be discouraged through taxes. New technology should decrease use of resources. But pain is not gain.


But the moral is that they could always buy themself out of the mess. Really big company's will only pay a toddle more unless we are talking ridiculess taxes and then their hazardus to smaller stuff in the trade.
Just look at Ford and others, they are in a complete mess they could easly have avoided by attempting to make green tecnology, but ofcourse they did not. Why would they?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 10, 2009 04:45 AM

Quote:
Really big company's will only pay a toddle more unless we are talking ridiculess taxes and then their hazardus to smaller stuff in the trade.
Of course, the income tax would be adjusted so the regressiveness of the carbon tax would be neutralized.

Quote:
Why would they?
Because they're failures dominated by lazy union workers?
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 10, 2009 12:30 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Really big company's will only pay a toddle more unless we are talking ridiculess taxes and then their hazardus to smaller stuff in the trade.
Of course, the income tax would be adjusted so the regressiveness of the carbon tax would be neutralized.


Would the point not be lost then? Looks like that for me.

Quote:
Quote:
Why would they?
Because they're failures dominated by lazy union workers?

Do you mind to stop going off-topic?!
A business is not controlled by the workers. Its controlled by whoever is in charge, whoever is in charge decides research and what to develop.
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baklava
baklava


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Mostly harmless
posted April 10, 2009 12:57 PM

Quote:
Because they're failures dominated by lazy union workers?

And Jews!
Seriously now, maybe it's time to find another scapegoat, the evil-unions-of-lazy-communist-criminals-pretending-to-be-workers one is getting tiresome already.

Or you can always, God forbid, just admit that it happened cause of crappy management.

Back on topic, I adore ecology, but I don't believe in most of the Green parties. In my opinion, they're just like any other party, except for waving another colour and trying to manipulate another target audience. Which is simply... demeaning for any self-conscious, environmentally-aware human being.
There are probably exceptions, of course. I respect those. But the idea of ecology should be spread on a global level, and we can't do it when the Green parties of some nations support bombings and destruction when it suits them.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted April 10, 2009 01:54 PM

I vote for Green party, as it is the only one that is close enough to my ideals.

The local government policy of the Greens (Finland) is based on the following positions:

   * responsibility for the climate belongs to everyone
   * biodiversity and animal welfare are also local government issues
   * new nuclear power plants or uranium mines are unnecessary
   * public services create quality of life
   * it is better to invest in health rather than pay for illness
   * parents should be free to choose the form of day-care for their children
   * high-quality basic education is the basis for equality
   * municipalities must be fair employers
   * the people must have a say in public affairs
   * poverty can be beaten, indifference can be vanquished
   * the rights of minorities must be defended
   * the promotion of equality belongs also to local government
   * tolerant and multiculturally oriented municipalities have the best chances of success


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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 10, 2009 02:39 PM

del_diablo:
Quote:
Would the point not be lost then?
Not at all. People would still pay more if they use more gasoline. That's the whole point.

Quote:
A business is not controlled by the workers.
It is when it's illegal to fire people who go on strike - and they threaten to go on strike pretty often.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted April 10, 2009 06:30 PM

Quote:
Not at all. People would still pay more if they use more gasoline. That's the whole point.


Taxing the commoners is completely pointless. Taxing the big industri and enforcing strict laws and regulations on the subject of polution would work better, like a law about cars that pollute over X cannot be sold or bought nor made(so long X is high enogh it will have impact).
The industri make cars, the commoners need them but they cannot change what the industri make. Only do small directions on that. If you enforce the industri to behave on the other hand, it would work since they are the ones further selling the poison.

Quote:
It is when it's illegal to fire people who go on strike - and they threaten to go on strike pretty often.


The shame about that is that they need a reason before doing that. And you ignored Baklava's post on the subject.
So i think you are cornered, and its going further towards off-topic by the posts. So please stop it.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 10, 2009 07:32 PM

A translation of the Manifest of the Flemish Green party

Quote:
Groen! presents: the Green Big Bang

Some 13 billion years ago our cosmos, the universe, the Laws of physics, and all matter was created out of one great explosion: the Big Bang Nothing would be the same, fter the Explosion. The Big Bang was the begin of all further life on the earth.

Today we're walking on increasingly thinning ice (pun intended). The earth is rapidly warming up and the temperature rises faster in society than it would in a furnace. The crisis had never been greater on climatological, Social and economical level.

Groen! sees the crisis as a historical chance to turn the tide and to create new job openings on a grand scale, to clean our enviroment and to live more laid-back. We must dare to drastically turn the tide, so we don't have to be scared for the Green Big Bang - we need to embrace it, because the Green Big Bang symbolizes:

A Green Economy
A Durable, Healthy, Humane and Enviromental
An Economy that transforms garbage into profit and recycles infinitely, and thus creating thousants of new job openings.


Improved Quality of Life
We wish to change our blunting life- and working styles into a balanced and durable manner of cohabitation, inwhich everyone is valued for the use of their talents.

A society where everyone counts
In a truly civilized society, everyone has the same rights: Working people, retired people, unemployed people, small savers, but also those who cannot save. We are opposed  against an ideology or policy that divides and upsets people against eachother.
 
That Green Big Bang is possible now. We are obliged, bot to ourselves nd our enviroment, to work together to build a beautifull future and a blossoming society, where thousants of new jobs can be created Thus you can do by massively voting for Groen!!

Vote for Groen!, and make the Green Big Bang th Electionstake on June the 7th.


 The Future will Advance



Enough material for discussion imo. I'll post my opinion about this... manifest later.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted April 10, 2009 08:52 PM

del_diablo:
Quote:
Taxing the big industri and enforcing strict laws and regulations on the subject of polution would work better, like a law about cars that pollute over X cannot be sold or bought nor made(so long X is high enogh it will have impact).
That's a bad idea. Taxing gas makes it more expensive, so consumers will gravitate towards more fuel-efficient cars anyway.

Quote:
i think you are cornered
Wow. Just wow.

Lexxan:
The manifesto doesn't sound that bad. But once we see the practical implementations...
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 10, 2009 09:12 PM

GREEN, my favorite color ()

Quote:
That's so typical for Green: Forbid anything that isn't to their liking or at least discourage it by Taxing it harshly.
I've got a better idea Lex. How about liberals like you stop affecting the environment and others in the process by polluting, eh?

They are not forbidding something personal which shouldn't affect them.

Quote:
But once we see the practical implementations...
Practical implementations of pollution are already affecting me and the environment. So if I get a gun and shoot some dude who owns a polluting factory, I'm just doing it in self-defense you know?


@mvass: Carbon tax is ridiculous, it's like saying "it's better to make a mess then clean up rather than not make any mess at all" lol.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted April 10, 2009 09:15 PM

Quote:
How about liberals like you stop affecting the environment and others in the process by polluting, eh?

I'm not doing anything to affect the enviroment in a bad manner. Since when are Liberals (or Libertarians for that matter) anti-enviroment (please post your answer in the Liberal club thread, we don't want too much off-topicness here)
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