|
| Thread: Mixing Conflux and Academy? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
posted April 30, 2009 09:50 AM |
|
|
Poll Question:
Mixing Conflux and Academy?
Okay, I know I'm probably going to get shot up for this (as I do most of the time I post my own threads), but, what the heck.
There was a thread a while back about reintroducing the Conflux, which unfortunately just ended up being a lot of disagreeing. Having thought about it a bit since then, I came up with the idea that where the Conflux really went wrong was not having a decent base lineup, and so this idea came about. The Academy is, of course, the more-or-less truly magical faction, so I see no real arguments against it, but I'd like to know your views on the subject.
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
posted April 30, 2009 10:13 AM |
|
|
Nah, I 've had a few other Ideas about this
1) Spreading the 4 Elementals over the other factions. Inferno gets Fire(Efreeti), Nagas Water(Undines), Academy Air (Djinns) and Sylvan Earth '(Dryads)
2) we could also incorporate COnflux in Sylvan, mixing the Elven town with a Natural Spirit World (adding Nymphs, Leprechauns, Warrior Spirits, Sylphs, etc...). This spirit world could also be a separate faction, allied to Sylvan
3) Or we could, like in H5 make them all neutral.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 11:21 AM |
|
|
|
Fair enough, although on point 2. I really can't see fire being big in the Sylvan.
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 11:33 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I really can't see fire being big in the Sylvan.
Whisp.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 12:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
2) we could also incorporate COnflux in Sylvan, mixing the Elven town with a Natural Spirit World (adding Nymphs, Leprechauns, Warrior Spirits, Sylphs, etc...). This spirit world could also be a separate faction, allied to Sylvan
like H4. but I think it fits druids well.
|
|
isabel
Known Hero
Dragonblessed
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 01:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
1) Spreading the 4 Elementals over the other factions. Inferno gets Fire(Efreeti), Nagas Water(Undines), Academy Air (Djinns) and Sylvan Earth '(Dryads)
This is a very good idea and it has never been done before. But what about Magic Elementals? Belongs to Academy?
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 02:16 PM |
|
|
Joining the two factions is not a good idea imo. I'm concerned the faction would end up feeling just like that, a mix-up of two factions, and let's not repeat past times mistakes (Infernopolis, anybody?).
I think spreading the Elementals over the factions is an idea that has some merit. It has been suggested in different forms before. Personally, I think the best solution would be to have the Elementals as not being IN the line-up, but rather being a neutral-aligned-with-town creature, as per H4 neutrals.
Problem comes when it's down to assigning "Elements" to towns. Because how do we distribute them - and which Elements do we include? There are obviously the four clasical elements, but that's only 4 towns. Then we have things like Light, Dark, Life, Death, Order, Chaos, Magic ...
Some towns are pretty easy to place, while others are very tricky. A suggestion could look something like this:
Stronghold Air Element
Sanctuary Water Element
Fortress Fire Element
Sylvan Earth Element
Haven Light Element
Dungeon Darknes Element
Academy Order (Magic) Element
Inferno Chaos Element
Necropolis ? Death Element
? ? Life Element
And then of course there the discussion whether the Elemental shall take the shape of Elementals per se, or more like creatures incarnating the Element - i.e. Djinn, Efreet, etc. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages (for instance, there are numerous Fire creatures such as Efreet, Phoenix, Fire Dragon ...).
Notice that many of these creatures incarnating the elements are already in the game - thus, Angel = Light Element, Black Dragon = Darknes Element, Emerald Dragon = Earth Element, Fire Dragon = Fire Element.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 10:53 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 22:58, 30 Apr 2009.
|
Very good arguments Alc, but unfortunately they don't mesh with the game as it stands:
Academy Don't worship anything
Dungeon Dark Element (can that really be called an element?)
Haven Light Element (again, is it really an element?)
Inferno Chaos Primordial (not actually an element, even here)
Necropolis Order Primordial (again, not actually an element)
Sylvan Earth Element
Fortress Fire Element
Stronghold Don't worship anything
From that point of view, we have two towns that don't don't worship anything, two towns that worship 'traditional' elements, two towns that worship 'non-traditional' elements, and two towns that worship the primordial dragons, with the other two 'traditional' elements flapping lose. On top of that, you end up with the problem of not having anywhere near enough elements to work with (I wouldn't count light/dark, order/chaos aren't counted in the universe, and life/death aren't what you could really call elements). Besides, the Academy is already half way there anyway:
Quote:
Wizards do not view the dragons as gods, merely as more powerful beings. With enough study and experimentation, they too will achieve the power of the dragons
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 11:12 PM |
|
|
I haven't posted my (newest) vision of H6 yet, but I've simply combined all three points. Sylvan is half an elven and half a spirit world, Elemental-like creatures in four of the factions (those I've mentionned earlier) + Pure Air/Earth/Water/Fire Elemenals as four Neutrals (+ Upgrades). Well, it's a bit heavy, but that's how I like it.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 30, 2009 11:22 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 23:22, 30 Apr 2009.
|
|
Sounds interesting, I'd be interested to see how it works.
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted May 01, 2009 12:22 AM |
|
|
Well, yeah I can affort to really mix and re-compose towns... I have like 42 units per town! (including upgrades, but excluding neutrals). 
Anyway, about that Elemental Spirit thingy, you can even make a whole separate town if you like. The Line-up I would suggest woulld be something like this:
1) Whisp
2) Leprechaun
3) Satyr
4) Nymph/Dryad
5) Sylph/Pegasus
6) Treant
7) Phoenix
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted May 01, 2009 08:06 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Very good arguments Alc, but unfortunately they don't mesh with the game as it stands:
Academy Don't worship anything
Dungeon Dark Element (can that really be called an element?)
Haven Light Element (again, is it really an element?)
Inferno Chaos Primordial (not actually an element, even here)
Necropolis Order Primordial (again, not actually an element)
Sylvan Earth Element
Fortress Fire Element
Stronghold Don't worship anything
From that point of view, we have two towns that don't don't worship anything, two towns that worship 'traditional' elements, two towns that worship 'non-traditional' elements, and two towns that worship the primordial dragons, with the other two 'traditional' elements flapping lose. On top of that, you end up with the problem of not having anywhere near enough elements to work with (I wouldn't count light/dark, order/chaos aren't counted in the universe, and life/death aren't what you could really call elements). Besides, the Academy is already half way there anyway:
Quote:
Wizards do not view the dragons as gods, merely as more powerful beings. With enough study and experimentation, they too will achieve the power of the dragons
I don't quite agree with you, Matt, and on any account, if the game is given another overwhaul, so will the mythology be.
Still, Stronghold has a certain atunement with Air (Pao Kais?, Sky Daughters) and we also have the whole Free Cities Of The East and Sylath worshippers that could be taking in over here.
As for the Light and Darkness "Elements" - yes, they are kind of elements here: We have the six elemental dragons that are children of Asha, which includes the Elrath and Malassa, Dragons of Light and Darkness. Chaos and Order are sort of superior to the others through Urgash and Asha, but still, they are there, and we know that Necromancers praise the orderly aspects of Asha, and obviously Inferno follows Urgash.
As for Academy, yes, they are a bit besides the scheme, but if one actually wants to stick with the whole "Magic Element" thing from Heroes 3 (which I always felt was a poor concept) there's no denying that it pretty much does sum up what Academy is all about.
So I deffinitely feel there's something here that has VERY strong ties to the whole Heroes 5 mythology.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
|
|
posted May 01, 2009 08:35 AM |
|
|
Well guys as I know (but I'm not sure if it's true, maybe we have to ask Cerp), the Golems and all academy creatures are mindless, like the zombies, they are type of robots hm... but the Elementals are not, they are other creatures, they can be summoned, but they may be not. Unlike them the golems can't be born of the nature, same for the titams, gremlins ant etc, they have to be created by mage.
Two towns for me, or neutral elements, that can be summoned by some mages or creatures.
____________
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted May 01, 2009 08:49 AM |
|
Edited by MattII at 08:51, 01 May 2009.
|
Quote:
Still, Stronghold has a certain atunement with Air (Pao Kais?, Sky Daughters) and we also have the whole Free Cities Of The East and Sylath worshippers that could be taking in over here.
Stronghold has no atunement with air, the Wyvern/Pao Kai is the town flyer (every town gets at least one), and both Earth and Sky Daughters can only vaguely be attributed to the elements (it doesn't change the fact that they've rejected the Elemental Dragons). As for the Free Cities of the East, they aren't the only ones, we've also heard nothing about the Blind Brothers or Dragon Knights (obviously apart from the fact that they exist).
Quote:
As for the Light and Darkness "Elements" - yes, they are kind of elements here: We have the six elemental dragons that are children of Asha, which includes the Elrath and Malassa, Dragons of Light and Darkness. Chaos and Order are sort of superior to the others through Urgash and Asha, but still, they are there, and we know that Necromancers praise the orderly aspects of Asha, and obviously Inferno follows Urgash.
Fair enough (I'm still against it, but complaining is futile), but Asha and Urgath, as the primordial dragons aren't 'elemental', which leaves us with only 4 of the 8 towns worshipping elemental dragons.
Quote:
As for Academy, yes, they are a bit besides the scheme, but if one actually wants to stick with the whole "Magic Element" thing from Heroes 3 (which I always felt was a poor concept) there's no denying that it pretty much does sum up what Academy is all about.
Magic isn't an element, unless it's supposed to represent Aether (aka Akasha/Void/Sky/Heaven/Space, depending on which system you're dealing with), but then that kind of mucks up the rest of the elements.
|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
|
posted May 01, 2009 12:21 PM |
|
Edited by Cepheus at 12:24, 01 May 2009.
|
Fabrice already stated that the Free Cities of the East will never become a faction of their own, as they're not united or numerous enough. You'd have to combine Orcs, Fighters and Wizards with air-based creatures to make them coherent with Dark Messiah, though that would leave them incoherent with Heroes.
Quote:
we've also heard nothing about the Blind Brothers
Astrologers' Tower
Quote:
or Dragon Knights
Tieru
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted May 01, 2009 01:49 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 13:51, 01 May 2009.
|
Quote:
Astrologers' Tower
Those things are run by the Blind Brothers? I thought they were more into healing than stargazing.
Quote:
Tieru
After the 3rd eclipse I suppose they would be a bit thin on the ground.
|
|
Oz
Adventuring Hero
Preparing
|
|
posted May 05, 2009 11:31 AM |
|
|
Nah I think these two should remain as different factions, the idea of having aligned neutrals is a good idea though, I always liked that feature in h4. However I don't think such elementals as Order and Chaos should exist, even if their presence is reasonable. Darkness and Light is good.
Haven-Light
Necro-Darkness
Sylvan-Water
Inferno-Fire
Academy-Air
Dungeon-Earth
Fortress-
Stronghold-
I have no idea about the last two, Fortress could use both Earth and Fire, and Stronghold could use those too, plus air. Earth is more related to both than it is to Dungeon, but this way we can separate simple elementals from expansion factions, like this was intended from the start.
Still I think a separate Conflux town is better:
Spirit->Arcane Spirit/Wisp
Air Elemental->Storm Elemental/Smog Elemental
Water Elemental->Ice Elemental/Wave Elemental
Fire Elemental->Electric Elemental/Flame Elemental
Earth Elemental->Magma elemental/Mineral Elemental
Psichyc Elemental->Astral Elemental/Magic Elemental
Fire Bird->Phoenix/Thunder Bird
Mostly a magic based town, with a magic hero ofcourse: Elementalist. Their special ability would make use of the elemental system Dungeon has.
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted May 05, 2009 01:15 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Haven-Light
Necro-Darkness
Sylvan-Water
Inferno-Fire
Academy-Air
Dungeon-Earth
Fortress- Stone, Metal or smth
Stronghold- BLOOD!!!!!
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
|
|
posted May 05, 2009 01:37 PM |
|
|
First the Elements are not good,I don't agree with Oz and Lex.Alc's idea is the best,even some faction don't have an REAL element (for example the Chaos one for Inferno or Death for Necro)
Then Oz's creature system is excellent:
Quote:
Spirit->Arcane Spirit/Wisp
Air Elemental->Storm Elemental/Smog Elemental
Water Elemental->Ice Elemental/Wave Elemental
Fire Elemental->Electric Elemental/Flame Elemental
Earth Elemental->Magma elemental/Mineral Elemental
Psichyc Elemental->Astral Elemental/Magic Elemental
Fire Bird->Phoenix/Thunder Bird
Tier 1: Ok
Tier 2: What about Lightning or Universe Elemental for the Alternate Upgrade
Tier 3: Ok
Tier 4: No Electric Elemental and even Flame one (the flames are from Fire),actually,I have no good idea here,but I think it's better to choose Lava and Magma Elementals
Tier 5: No Magma Elemental,it better fits the Fire,no ideas for now,but yours with the Mineral Elemental is great 
Tier 6: Mind Elemental as the non-upg.
Tier 7: I'd better put the Roc (H2 Wizard creature) instead of Firebird
|
|
Oz
Adventuring Hero
Preparing
|
|
posted May 05, 2009 02:27 PM |
|
Edited by Oz at 17:10, 05 May 2009.
|
Maybe you're right with the Roc, and definately with the Mind Elemental, but I think the others are fine.
-Storm elemental should have some kind of minor lightning, and Smog would have a fog that makes ranged units weaker, kind of like the Titans in h5.
-Electric elemental is good because it's more distant, they may have something against mechanical creatures. Lava and Magma are so close to each other, and Flame just sounded cooler than Lava. The fire based upgrade could have an edge against undads with burn.
-Mineral and Magma elemental could simply be a defense/attack pair, or we could name them after different resorcues and so they could give them occasionally.
As for the others
-Spirits could be great low level Magic Arrow casters, while Wisp would have healing.
-Wave elemental could slow the enemy and push them back, and Ice could ofcourse freeze them.
-Mind and Astral could have Hypnotize, and maybe would have a special magic based on the enemy's moral, while Magic would be a powerful caster.
-Phoenix and Thunder Bird talk for themselves, ressurection, fire breath/Lightning Strike
|
| |
|
|
