|
| Thread: What is a religion and what is not. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
posted May 20, 2009 06:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Who was also praying to his "Father" ...
Jesus is God existing as a man. God did not stop existing as the Spirit who fills and transcends all of space and time when he began to exist as Jesus. Jesus is another way God exists, not a separate divine person.
The human manifestation of God prayed as a man.
Quote:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Why was Jesus praying to his "Father" and not to his "Mother"? Why not to his genderless God?
Quote:
Quote:
All hooray Jihad!
I am not Muslim. Remember Lenin, Stalin, .... (insert your favorite atheist tyrant.)
I am just pointing out on the implications of what you write in modern society. If you want to hide behind your finger, you are free to do so.
Quote:
Quote:
In fact Christianity is in many ways responsible for modern science by teaching that there are not thousands of nature spirits arbitrarily causing things to happen
Chrisitnas believe God created a world where things operate on certain principles (natural laws) as opposed to pagan nature spirits/gods causing everything to happen.
Of course you neglect to refer to the "magic touch" that Christianity allows.
Quote:
This lead to an attmept to find those natural principles by which nature operates.
What about all those scientists who have suffered in the name of God? Or is it that the "scholars" of some times were not that much of "scholars"?
Quote:
This concept was necessary for modern science.
This is human curiosity by people who are able to reason.
____________
The empty set
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 06:35 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That is your desire for religion. But you don't have a right to impose your religious ideas on others.
The prophet Samuel began to serve in the temple when he was about 4 years old and God spoke to him at that age.
Sorry, but many people find God as a child. Jesus said don't forbid the little ones to come to him.
No, you don'thave the right to forbid a child to follow Christ.
Yes you did. Worshiping God involves obedience to God. You said children are to be forbidden to take communion or to be baptised. So you are forbidding them from obeying the gospel of Christ. Christ commanded all people to be repent, to be baptised, to receive the Spirit, and to take communion when they become believers.
Sorry. I am a protestant and young children were never forbiden to obey the gospel in my church. So no, protestants don't agree with you.
And you still fail to se the question and what is said.
Kids are allowed to obey gospel and God, but would it not be better if they actually belive what they are praying too? That they submited to the will of 'deity' themself knowing that they are a part of the truth instead of forcing them into beliving there is a God against whatever they think?
Out of most Christian groups, i think the baptist are quite correct in their ways. They think that a person must follow God, if the person belives that. There you are not forced into some random snow upon birth, you can always stay away in you like or do not belive.
Quote:
No, but socialists indoctrinate children into atheism in oppressive states in the school system. When a child is drawn to God that is not indoctrination.
Oh really? Now where did you get that idea?
School is suppose to teach the following:
*The idea of thinking
*Basic knowledge
*Basic language
Not:
*Indoctrine
*Random propaganda
Quote:
Quote:
But children shouldn't become official members with adult ritual rights only when they are grown-up. No Christening. No Communion. No wine.
I'm glad you don't have the power to impose your beliefs on others.
So your against people becoming to become a part of a religion? Or belive with thier own will and soul?
Quote:
I am not Muslim. Remember Lenin, Stalin, .... (insert your favorite atheist tyrant).
*insert name of favorite Christian tyrant*, oh wait! If you must list nobles atleast list 2 of them!
Quote:
Chrisitnas believe God created a world where things operate on certain principles (natural laws) as opposed to pagan nature spirits/gods causing everything to happen. This lead to an attmept to find those natural principles by which nature operates. This concept was necessary for modern science.
Blah! Your dead wrong! And what about non-christian researches then? I really question your flawed logic. Japan is a Shinto-Buddhist country, how do you explain their high tech and research level?
Death: But the point is still there, they are not Christians nor a part of the Abrahemic religions and are not even regular buddhisme(well as far as thats defined). If its like somebody claimed than "Chistianity = instante tech win"(wrong choice of words), why are they also upp in the tecnological clouds?
____________
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 06:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Japan is a Shinto-Buddhist country, how do you explain their high tech and research level?
This might be a bit off topic (I don't want to get into this debate for now), but that's mostly engineering. Don't mix it with science, it doesn't like it 
Think of the difference between Intel CPU manufacturing in the early years and let's say, Alan Turing's theories... (latter is more science)
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 06:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
When a child is drawn to God that is not indoctrination.
I missed that.  Dictionary
____________
The empty set
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:08 PM |
|
|
It actually took you guys 3 and a half pages to destroy the thread with quote wars.
You're getting rusty.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:18 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 23:23, 20 May 2009.
|
Quote:
You claim, that you are protestant and young children are allowed to eat the body of Christ?
Yep. You are very mistaken if you think that only Catholics believe that Chrsit is present in the communion. I quoted a verses thst showed Christ is in the communion elements.
And certainly I have stated a number ro times on the board that I am protestant.
Quote:
Why was Jesus praying to his "Father" and not to his "Mother"? Why not to his genderless God?
You eveidently have not read the Bible. God has revesled himsealf as a Father, not as a mother.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Quote:
I am just pointing out on the implications of what you write in modern society. If you want to hide behind your finger, you are free to do so.
Your statement about jihad had something to do with religions causing deaths. Like I said, I am Charistian, not Muslim. Not one time did Jesus tell his church to raise an army or punish any sin beyond not fellowshipping with a sinning member. And atheists accusing religion of such have to remember men such as Stalin who murdered and imposed atheism as the state religion.
Quote:
Of course you neglect to refer to the "magic touch" that Christianity allows.
What exactly do you mean by "magic touch?" If you mean that Christianity says God is able to transcend the natural laws he put in place to perform a miracle, yes he can. But that is not the ordinary event.
Quote:
Quote:
This lead to an attmept to find those natural principles by which nature operates.
What about all those scientists who have suffered in the name of God? Or is it that the "scholars" of some times were not that much of "scholars"?
How does your statemtnt at all relate to what I said beyond another attempt to smear religion? If you are talking about things the Catholic church did, yes it certainly did things that oppose God's Word. Like I said Jesus never told his church to harm anyone. He told his church to pray for everyone and to do good to everyone. Not everyone who callse himself a Christian is a Christian though certainly no Christian is perfect.
Quote:
This is human curiosity by people who are able to reason.
It is strange for you to say that the acknowledgement of laws governing nature was not necessary for modern science. It is your view that is a "human curiosity by people who are able to reason."
Quote:
Kids are allowed to obey gospel and God, but would it not be better if they actually belive what they are praying too? That they submited to the will of 'deity' themself knowing that they are a part of the truth instead of forcing them into beliving there is a God against whatever they think?
NO, JJ was talking about refusing to allow children to be baptised and to take communion even though Christ commanded all believers to do this.
Like I said no one can force a child to obey the gospel. Obedience to the gosopel of Christ has to be from the heart. Only God can impart his Spirit.
Quote:
Oh really? Now where did you get that idea?
Reference
Please read under the heading "The Soviet Union." I am rather suprised that you claim they did not indoctrinate children with atheism.
Quote:
So your against people becoming to become a part of a religion? Or belive with thier own will and soul?
I am not sure how you get that out of my statement. JJ said children should not be able to get baptised or receive communion. I said I am glad he is not able to impose his beliefs on others.
Children should be free to follow the commands of Christ which include being baptised and partaking of communion. The state has no power to forbid them from doing so.
Quote:
Blah! Your dead wrong! And what about non-christian researches then? I really question your flawed logic.
So you are saying Japan was equal to the West in scientific acheivement? NOW they have caught up by learning from the West.
Quote:
Quote:
When a child is drawn to God that is not indoctrination.
I missed that.
You totally misunderstood my stament. I meant when God draws a child to himself that is not indoctrination.
However, a parent teaching a child a religious belief is not indoctrination.
If you claim atheists don't teach their children atheism you know nothing of children. Children learn by observation as well as by words. They learn from atheist parents who are hostile towards religion to hate religion. They are indoctrinated with the words and actions of thier atheist parents into the idea that their is no God even if the parents don't formally teach them such a thing.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:26 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If you claim atheists don't teach their children atheism you know nothing of children. Children learn by observation as well as by words. They learn from atheist parents who are hostile towards religion to hate religion.
As a child of atheists parents, I formally ask you that you stop writing this nonsense. It is untrue.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:31 PM |
|
|
Please note that a religious child of two religious parents would say the same.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:33 PM |
|
|
No, religious parents tend to teach their child religion - make them go to church, etc. Atheists don't.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:34 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It actually took you guys 3 and a half pages to destroy the thread with quote wars.
You're getting rusty.
Yes, it's like being at the Round Table Observatory all over again, except this time it's JJ and Elodin instead of JJ and Grumpy Old Wizard. Oh, wait...
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted May 20, 2009 11:46 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 23:52, 20 May 2009.
|
And just for kicks, since I'm bored:
Elodin wrote:
Quote:
If you claim atheists don't teach their children atheism you know nothing of children. Children learn by observation as well as by words. They learn from atheist parents who are hostile towards religion to hate religion. They are indoctrinated with the words and actions of thier atheist parents into the idea that their is no God even if the parents don't formally teach them such a thing.
Let me see if I understand this logic.
Children of atheist parents learn from the "words and actions of thier[sic] parents" that "their[sic] is no God" --> indoctrination.
Children of Christian parents learn from the words and actions of their parents that there is a God --> not indoctrination.
Right. That makes perfect sense.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 12:17 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Why was Jesus praying to his "Father" and not to his "Mother"? Why not to his genderless God?
You eveidently have not read the Bible. God has revesled himsealf as a Father, not as a mother.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Now, starting to speculate about me. You fail to recognize the argument though. Why whenever there was a choice in gender, male was chosen?
Quote:
Quote:
I am just pointing out on the implications of what you write in modern society. If you want to hide behind your finger, you are free to do so.
Your statement about jihad had something to do with religions causing deaths. Like I said, I am Charistian, not Muslim. Not one time did Jesus tell his church to raise an army or punish any sin beyond not fellowshipping with a sinning member. And atheists accusing religion of such have to remember men such as Stalin who murdered and imposed atheism as the state religion.
Who cares what you are and what you believe? You make a statement that you think would be nice to enforce in modern society and I am giving you an example of what might go wrong. Don't twist my sayings, because I am still alive.
Quote:
Quote:
Of course you neglect to refer to the "magic touch" that Christianity allows.
What exactly do you mean by "magic touch?" If you mean that Christianity says God is able to transcend the natural laws he put in place to perform a miracle, yes he can. But that is not the ordinary event.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This lead to an attmept to find those natural principles by which nature operates.
What about all those scientists who have suffered in the name of God? Or is it that the "scholars" of some times were not that much of "scholars"?
How does your statemtnt at all relate to what I said beyond another attempt to smear religion? If you are talking about things the Catholic church did, yes it certainly did things that oppose God's Word. Like I said Jesus never told his church to harm anyone. He told his church to pray for everyone and to do good to everyone. Not everyone who callse himself a Christian is a Christian though certainly no Christian is perfect.
It is not an attempt to smear religion. I am giving you another example where Christianity "reinforced" scientific work. I am trying to pinpoint that your arguments are rotten. Of course I don't expect you to understand.
Quote:
Quote:
This is human curiosity by people who are able to reason.
It is strange for you to say that the acknowledgement of laws governing nature was not necessary for modern science. It is your view that is a "human curiosity by people who are able to reason."
I don't want you to paraphrase my sayings. As of the rest, you are right once again, scientific research is powered by our religious beliefs. 
Matthew 5:3: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
____________
The empty set
|
|
xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 12:23 AM |
|
|
Yeah, religious parents make their children go to church.
My parents doesnt take me to a science lab every week
|
|
SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 12:33 AM |
|
|
Xerox, there's a bit of difference between those two things...
Don't you have science class at school, anyways?
____________
They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 12:34 AM |
|
|
Elodin, I think most of us (if not all) are striving for a better society and a better way of living. Why do we need religion and don't we just reside on education and the legal system? What are the benefits a religion gives us? Or is it all about afterlife in the end?
____________
The empty set
|
|
xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 12:45 AM |
|
Edited by xerdux at 00:47, 21 May 2009.
|
Yes and no. Science is basically a "meta-subject" called NO which means (N)atural (O)riented subjects and it contains Biology, Physics and Chemistry.
But then in SO (Social Oriented Subjects) there is Geography, History, Society and Religion.
Religion in swedish schools is used to better understand other cultures and beliefs.
But the most interesting religion has been in our Swedish classes where we have studied the old religions Norse and Greek mythology. I just love the Aesir and Vanir and elves, dwarves, trolls and giants etc.
I also like that norse mythology actually makes sense, as the mythologial world falls at the ending catalysm Ragnarök and a world dominated by humans (although the embrace of the gods still lives on) rises instead.
Greek mythology was weird and Zeus was a freaking rapist but I still liked it. School doesnt seem to like Egypt though
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 01:07 AM |
|
|
Quote:
And just for kicks, since I'm bored:
Elodin wrote:
Quote:
If you claim atheists don't teach their children atheism you know nothing of children. Children learn by observation as well as by words. They learn from atheist parents who are hostile towards religion to hate religion. They are indoctrinated with the words and actions of thier atheist parents into the idea that their is no God even if the parents don't formally teach them such a thing.
Let me see if I understand this logic.
Children of atheist parents learn from the "words and actions of thier[sic] parents" that "their[sic] is no God" --> indoctrination.
Children of Christian parents learn from the words and actions of their parents that there is a God --> not indoctrination.
Right. That makes perfect sense.
If you cared to read the thread you would see that as always someone accused religious parents of indoctrination of children yet claim they don't influence the belief of their children. Quite silly.
I pointed out that atheist parents indoctrinate (instill beliefs in) their children by their words and actions. Children hear the comments of Daddy who hates Christians for example. The child begins to take on the attitudes and beliefs of their parents.
Quote:
You fail to recognize the argument though. Why whenever there was a choice in gender, male was chosen?
Because God chose to manifest himself as a male.
Quote:
Who cares what you are and what you believe? You make a statement that you think would be nice to enforce in modern society and I am giving you an example of what might go wrong. Don't twist my sayings, because I am still alive.
You evidently.
No, I didn't not talke about anything being desirable to enfore in society. I said I was glad JJ could not enfore his beliefs that children should not be allowed to be baptized or to take communion.
Quote:
It is not an attempt to smear religion. I am giving you another example where Christianity "reinforced" scientific work. I am trying to pinpoint that your arguments are rotten. Of course I don't expect you to understand.
Sure you were. Like I said the Catholic church had no authority from Christ to persecute anyone. And atheits have certainly persecuted and murdered religious people in atheist states.
Quote:
Elodin, I think most of us (if not all) are striving for a better society and a better way of living. Why do we need religion and don't we just reside on education and the legal system? What are the benefits a religion gives us? Or is it all about afterlife in the end?
If you don't believe in God that is your right.
Religion for those who do believe in God deals with the implication of God's existence and what he requires of us. How we relate to God and relate to our fellow man.
No, everyone does not strive for a better society. The officially atheist states it seems conducted many mass murders and tried to impose atheism on the society.
It seems Christians have many thousands of organizations that feed the hungry, provide necessities for the poor, drill water wells in places like African nations that need them, ect. There are no atheist organizations that do the same to my knowledge.
So it seems to me Christianity contributes far more to society than does atheism. Christianity is about the afterlife and this present life as well.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 01:45 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Who cares what you are and what you believe? You make a statement that you think would be nice to enforce in modern society and I am giving you an example of what might go wrong. Don't twist my sayings, because I am still alive.
You evidently.
Not really. I am interested in the impact to others of what you suggest.
Quote:
No, I didn't not talke about anything being desirable to enfore in society. I said I was glad JJ could not enfore his beliefs that children should not be allowed to be baptized or to take communion.
Reminder:
Quote:
What is illogical and oppressive is to try to prevent someone from practicing his religion. Oppression of religion is the cause of quite a few problems and deaths.
Doesn't this statement suggest a way of acting in modern world? Don't you imply that religion should not be oppressed?
Quote:
Quote:
It is not an attempt to smear religion. I am giving you another example where Christianity "reinforced" scientific work. I am trying to pinpoint that your arguments are rotten. Of course I don't expect you to understand.
Sure you were. Like I said the Catholic church had no authority from Christ to persecute anyone. And atheits have certainly persecuted and murdered religious people in atheist states.
There is no hope here really, because murders have been committed even in the name of Christianity. And besides, this is history. What can we do from now on?
Quote:
Quote:
Elodin, I think most of us (if not all) are striving for a better society and a better way of living. Why do we need religion and don't we just reside on education and the legal system? What are the benefits a religion gives us? Or is it all about afterlife in the end?
If you don't believe in God that is your right.
Religion for those who do believe in God deals with the implication of God's existence and what he requires of us. How we relate to God and relate to our fellow man.
You don't answer the question. Why don't we focus on better education and a better legal system? What does religion provide to us?
Quote:
No, everyone does not strive for a better society. The officially atheist states it seems conducted many mass murders and tried to impose atheism on the society.
I am talking about participants in this thread, since by participating they seem to be interested in the topic.
Quote:
It seems Christians have many thousands of organizations that feed the hungry, provide necessities for the poor, drill water wells in places like African nations that need them, ect. There are no atheist organizations that do the same to my knowledge.
First of all, atheist organizations have a brief history in human timeline. Secondly, most atheists don't care to belong somewhere. Third, although we care about the final outcome (people are fed and given fresh water) - and I am with you on that one -, Christian organizations help children in Africa, because as a side-effect they are going to indoctrinate them and make their religion prevail among others, which is among their primary goals. Atheists, in general help and hope in something beyond religion.
What about UNICEF? It is an organization transcending religions, as it should be. Plus, usually, when atheists help, they don't brag about it. They just do it. They don't expect something in return. Religions on the other hand ...
Quote:
So it seems to me Christianity contributes far more to society than does atheism. Christianity is about the afterlife and this present life as well.
As I asked earlier. Regarding this life, what does religion offer that the legal system and education, do not have the potential to provide?
____________
The empty set
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 02:17 AM |
|
|
h hey guys, stil here? I scrolled down for 5 hours because I have something to say..
religion is defined by men -as I stated in my original quote- some men demand the definitions of religion to be fitted to their particular cause.
I drink beer.. Is that a religion?? I think it is?? wth? you know?
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 02:20 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Who cares what you are and what you believe? You make a statement that you think would be nice to enforce in modern society and I am giving you an example of what might go wrong. Don't twist my sayings, because I am still alive.
You evidently.
Not really. I am interested in the impact to others of what you suggest.
Quote:
No, I didn't not talke about anything being desirable to enfore in society. I said I was glad JJ could not enfore his beliefs that children should not be allowed to be baptized or to take communion.
Reminder:
Quote:
What is illogical and oppressive is to try to prevent someone from practicing his religion. Oppression of religion is the cause of quite a few problems and deaths.
Doesn't this statement suggest a way of acting in modern world? Don't you imply that religion should not be oppressed?
Yes, I said religion should not be opperessed. How do you find that to be me trying to "enforce in modern society" something? Unless you think you should be free to oppress others.
Quote:
There is no hope here really, because murders have been committed even in the name of Christianity. And besides, this is history. What can we do from now on?
Yes, there people who pretend to be Christians who are not. Some such people try to prey upon others while trying to appear to be a Christian. Jesus calls that sort of person a wolf in sheep's chothing. Jesus said if a person does not build his life on Jesus's teachings he is not a Christian. The Bible says no person who so much as hates another person is a Christian.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Quote:
You don't answer the question. Why don't we focus on better education and a better legal system? What does religion provide to us?
I did answer the post. Go back and reread my post.
Quote:
Christian organizations help children in Africa, because as a side-effect they are going to indoctrinate them and make their religion prevail among others, which is among their primary goals.
False statement. Yes, Christians share the gospel with everyone. But Christians help people out of love, not in some conspiracty to trick people into believing the gospel.
Quote:
Atheists, in general help and hope in something beyond religion.
I'm sorry but the lack of atheist orgainizations bely your comment.
I have only seen atheist organizations such as "Freedom From Religion" that try to oppress the rights of others to practice their religion. I don't see them doing any charitable work at all.
UNICEF was formed by the UN not by atheists.
Quote:
As I asked earlier. Regarding this life, what does religion offer that the legal system and education, do not have the potential to provide?
That is not what you asked. You said "Why do we need religion and don't we just reside on education and the legal system? What are the benefits a religion gives us? Or is it all about afterlife in the end?"
To me you were saying religion has no beneficial effects to society and that it is only about the afterlife. But it is obvious thatsuch a thing is not true.
Atheism does not inspire one to charity. Again, if it does, where are all the atheist charities?
Judaism and Christianity have always had a very strong emphasis on charity.
Yes, one can donate to charity without being religious. But the fact of the matter is that religious people are more likely to be charitable than a nonreligious person.
A person can begin as "scum" and be transformed by the Spirit of God into a good human being. What is the transformational power of atheism? Do people begin as "scum" and suddenly "see the light of atheism" and become a better human being? I have never observed such a thing.
|
| |
|
|
