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So these signs are based around nothing?

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So you are saying even though they don't believe in God, the sacred, spiritual, ect that they are not atheists?

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So if you actually practice the teachings of your religion you are an extemist?

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I would say that a person who does not attempt to follow the teachings of his religion is a hipocrit or at least an immature believer.

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They're based around anti-theism.

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So if you actually practice the teachings of your religion you are an extemist?

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If you practice all of them faithfully and properly - yes.

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I would say that a person who does not attempt to follow the teachings of his religion is a hipocrit or at least an immature believer.

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So a math student who follows the entire multiplication table is an exremist? He should elect to say 2x2=35000 in order to avoid being labeled as an extremist.

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So in your view people should say that believe something and then deny their supposed belief by their actions.

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For example if my religion said a person should never use violence unless absoluetly necessary I should just walk up and slap someone (for no reason) or I am insane.

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You will not become a murderer by following his teachings.

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So a math student  ...

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Math isn't a religion.

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No, in my view people should live in the world and not build themselves a castle in the sky

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Christians can't just throw away the Old Testament like that.

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Whoa. I didn't say that people shouldn't act consistently with their beliefs.

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I would say that a person who does not attempt to follow the teachings of his religion is a hipocrit or at least an immature believer.

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I would say that they're sane. Anyone who would follow 100% of the teachings of most major religions would probably get locked up for murder sooner or later.

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This is another highpoint in absurdity.

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In your opnion. I think it is absurb to think you can ignore what God says and obey the state instead. And the Bible backs up my belief, not yours. And this was being discussed about Christian baptism/communion.

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No. How stupid is the state that thinks it has the right to tell people when they are allowed to be baptism and to partake of communion. The state can't put the rules of its beaurocrats in the place of God's requirements.

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Not so. No matter how much real thing may be into all of those rituals, they are not enough to turn people. Some priests are doing horrible things, even though they do the rituals each day.
I always thought BELIEF would be a necessary prerequisite.

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Go back and read my posts. I quoted about...

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Christians can't just throw away the Old Testament like that.

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So a math student should always give the correct answer but for some bizare reason you claim a person should not act consistant to his beliefs? Why should not a person live accordint to his beliefs as much as possilbe, pray tell?

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For a CHILD? Children are supposed to act against their parents and against the law?

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A book that would demand that, was foolish.

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A god that would demand that was no god in any reasonable sense.

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Humans who'd support that, would obviously be deluded.

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No. How stupid is the state that thinks it has the right to tell people when they are allowed to be baptism and to partake of communion. The state can't put the rules of its beaurocrats in the place of God's requirements.

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[JJ]
Of course they can. Protection of children, as easy as that. What are you afraid of? That god won't find his way into the hearts of people when they are not brain-washed early enough? Don't you have any trust in the power of your religion?

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Then stop writing nonsense about what rituals are. You either need belief or you don't. If you need belief, then the rituals itself are obviously not as important as belief.

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Or are you mistaking your religion with some mumbo-jumbo?

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Are your rituals like lucky charms or what? Rabbit feet?

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If you have a modicum of trust in the RIGHTNESS of your belief, then it's clear that god won't blame people for things not in their responsibility.
If you don't belief that, you cannot have much trust or belief yourself.

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Blah, actually they can. But they cannot bash gay people if they did.

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I'm assuming you have research statistics to back this up.

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No, unless you love money like the rich yourn ruler did.

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You can critize the actions of others.

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Jesus portrayed strength, not weakness.

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Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

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Christians don't bash gay people. But I see lots of folks on these boards bashing Christians. Oh, and the New Testament also says gay sex is sin, not just the Old Testament. Some people never leave home without their Christian bashing club.

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Leviticus 18: In Leviticus 18:22 it is written:

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." (NIV)

In and of itself, it seems very clear. But look at the surrounding context, and something more comes to bear on this verse. Leviticus 18:6-18 tackle having sexual relations with relatives. Verse 19 says a man shall not have sexual relations with a woman during the "uncleanness of her monthly period". (How many of today's Christians actually obey this?) Verse 20 condemns having sexual relations with another man's wife.

Then verse 21 changes gears a bit and begins a discourse on sexual relations that are associated with Molech's worship. Molech, like many false gods of the day, had temple prostitutes, and Molech's followers believed that having sex of ANY kind in the temple would please Molech and increase the fertility of themselves, their spouses, their livestock, and their fields. Verse 21 mentions the sacrifice of children to Molech. Verse 22 should more accurately read "Do not have sex with the male temple prostitutes," which would continue the admonition in idolatry. In fact, the entire Chapter is about idolatry. Consider Chapters 17 and 19, which both speak of idolatry. Why would a missive about sex be inserted nonsensically in between two chapters on idolatry unless it also is meant to address idolatry? If we look at Chapter 18 as a whole, and verse 22 as part of that whole, then that verse must speak of idolatry and false worship in some manner, or else it is a line and precept out of place. Therefore, (come, let us reason together!), it is not a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, but rather a condemnation of the sexual promiscuity of the many idol-worshipping sects in the land the Israelites were coming into.

If we hold to Leviticus' statements as being a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, do we then also obey the rest of the old law? It is written: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it [all of the law]." (James 2:10). So a person who adheres to the law must adhere to the whole law, which is contained in the whole of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. Those three books contain the core of God's laws.

So let's look at some of those laws: If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married. (Deuteronomy 24:5). Does ANYONE keep this law? Could you manage a whole year without a paycheck? How would the military react in the middle of a war when a soldier comes up to his commander and says, "Sorry, sir, but my wife is pregnant and the book of Deuteronomy demands that I go home for a whole year now"? Any man whose wife becomes pregnant is here told that he must stay home for a year without working or else he is guilty of breaking the law!
Do not hate your brother in your heart. (Leviticus 19:17). Don't hate your siblings, even while growing up, or else you have broken the entirety of the law.
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27). Don't shave! Ever!
Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:32). If you do not stand in the presence of your elders, or get snippy with someone older than you, you have broken the law.
No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation. (Deuteronomy 23:2). So no one who has been born out of wedlock or born from a marriage that was not approved of may enter a church, nor may any of his or her descendants for ten whole generations after. Who checks this? Who would know? How could this one EVER be kept?

This is where it becomes more interesting: If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or mother, and his blood will be on his own head. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife -- with the wife of his neighbor -- both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9-10). Anyone who talks back to their parents must be killed for it according to the law! Anyone caught in adultery must be put to death also! It is in the law!


But in John 8:3-11 we see Jesus show what law we are truly under:

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing Him.

But Jesus bent over and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

In this Jesus shows us that the law saves no one; all are guilty of breaking the law of Moses. The fact of the matter is simple: nowhere does Christ Himself say anything against homosexuality. He reiterates nine of the Ten Commandments, lifting the Sabbath commandment, as it had become a yoke upon the people. Consider Matthew 22:36-40:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

So the sum of the law is in loving God and each other. How does this balance with the Mosaic law we looked at only a page back? Again, according to James, if we break even one law under the Mosaic laws, we break them all.

Romans 1: Another commonly used Scripture that is often mistreated to condemn homosexuality comes from Romans 1:26-27:

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust one for another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."(NIV)

Again, on its surface, it seems very straight-forward, but notice how this fragment begins: "Because of this..." Because of what? This passage really begins with Romans 1:18.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness...

It goes on in verses 22 and 23:

Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

This passage, taken in context and read for what it says ("exchanged the glory of... God for images made to look like mortal man... and animals...") is clearly about idolatry and pagan worship. To strengthen this point of view, the Scriptures go on to say:

"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator..." (Romans 1:25)

Then it goes on regarding the passage we first looked at, Romans 1:26-27. Taken in context, and translated properly, this passage is clearly about the pagan practices surrounding fertility worship and the sexual acts associated with that worship, performed with the priest of that false god, a "created" god. (Romans 1:25) There is simply no other accurate way to construe this passage.

About eunuchs: Now that we have covered the major passages commonly misinterpreted as condemning homosexuality, let's look at what the Bible says about eunuchs. Before doing so, we must define the term eunuch so that we are in agreement as to what a eunuch is.

According to Thayer 1 a eunuch is not only someone who has been castrated, but is also "one naturally incapacitated, either for marriage or for begetting children." Thayer further defines the word eunuch as "one who abstains from marriage". In his book Reverend Samuel Kader writes:

"By no means did the term eunuch have to be merely a castrated male. It was a broad term, and since a chamberlain for a harem could be promoted, and was a person trusted with the king's intimate things, the term often got generalized to mean an official in the court. Ancient Judah's king Hezekiah was told his sons would be eunuchs in Babylon. He didn't think this was bad news. [2 Kings 20:16-19] He thinks this is good news. He apparently is not worried that the royal line will be ended. Eunuch here, in king Hezekiah's estimate, probably means his children will be officials in the court of the Babylonians."

To further clarify the term eunuch, we can look at what Jesus said of them:

The disciples said to him. "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept t his word, but only those to whom it has been given.."

"For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." (Matthew 19:10-12)

In this context, Paul is therefore a eunuch, for he remained single and celibate so that he could fully concentrate on his mission for Christ, for the kingdom of heaven. Reverend Kader writes regarding Matthew 19:10-12:

"In this situation, Jesus and His disciples are discussing marriage and divorce, and the conditions under which it is permissible to divorce[...] But then Jesus goes on to say not everyone can receive His teaching on divorce and marriage, because not everyone can get married.

"His reasons for this are lumped under the category of being a eunuch. From the ensuing description it is obvious more people are eunuchs than castrated males. In the King James Version, Jesus says and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. No one was ever required to castrate themselves for the sake of getting into Heaven." 3

Kader goes on to write:

"So the Lord Himself has expanded the meaning of eunuch to include the unmarried for a variety of situations. Some were made this way by others. Some are born this way. They are unable to get married because they have no natural inclination to have sexual relations with a mate of the opposite sex because of sexual traumas (abuse, etc.) in their past. For some it is not an anticipated option. For others it is not an options at all. The hurt and scars are too deep. For whatever reason, and there are many, eunuch means anyone not likely to get heterosexually involved. At any rate, this list expanded by Jesus certainly includes gay people and others of either sex." 4

Understanding that gays fall into the eunuch definition given by Christ, let's look further at what Scripture says about eunuchs. Isaiah holds several prophetic scriptures for eunuchs:

Now that a clear and stable definition has been established for what a eunuch is, we can see clearly that homosexuals are, by God's Own definition, eunuchs. With that fact established, let's look further at what God Himself says about eunuchs and their place in Heaven.

"Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the Lord say, "The Lord will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, 'I am only a dry tree.' For this is what the Lord says: 'To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to serve him, to love the name of the Lord, and to worship Him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer, Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations, The Sovereign Lord declares-- he who gathers the exiles of Israel:  I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered'." (Isaiah 56:3-8)

Eunuchs were foreigners to God's temple when this was penned, due to Deuteronomy 23:1 ("No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord."). Isaiah here marks an illustration of how the law of Moses cannot be kept by anyone, and how God Himself wipes away the bonds of the Mosaic Law through His love, mercy, and grace. The promise for eunuchs in this passage is not for all eunuchs, however, but only for those who will observe and uphold God's way through His Son Jesus Christ.

It is important to note that wherever the conditions of salvation are discussed, sexuality is never mentioned. (Acts 4:12, Acts 16:30-31, Romans 10:9, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16-17)

It is therefore very clear that eunuchs, a population in which God Himself includes homosexuals, have a place in heaven, and are given "a name better than sons and daughters". It gets no better than that!

Consider what Christ says in Matthew 5:22...

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there remembers that thy brother hath ought against thee..." (KJV)

The word to pay attention to here is "Raca." According to Professor Halsall, 5 the word "Raca" is not the same as "moros" (fool), as it is sometimes mistranslated. According to Halsall, a renowned language scholar, the word Raca is common in many Semitic languages and loosely means soft, but with an effeminate connotation. The Akkadian word raq is used to indicate a woman's name or occupation, and its symbol in Akkadian derives from a Sumerian symbol for woman. It can be argued securely that Raca is an accusation of sissy or catamite.

This argument works better if the word "moros" is considered. The word can mean fool, but it also has the amply used connotation of sexual aggressor, or even homosexual aggressor. LSJ19 confirms this, although Johannssen makes much more of it. It could reasonably be argued then that Jesus' words here condemn those who abuse others about their homosexuality. 6

If this is, in fact, Christ's intention, as it appears to be, then those who are critical of homosexuals are, in fact, to be criticized for their stand against them.

Now it is made clear. God made all people as they are innately. Sexuality is innate; the Salk Institute has proven this by mapping the sexuality gene. The Creator made genetics, and is therefore ultimately responsible for how each one of us turns out via those traits that are genetic. It is also very safe to say that God does not make junk, nor does He make people just so He can hate them. After all, God is Love. The real truth is that God not only loves His gay children just as much as He does His heterosexual children, but He has seen the persecution we must endure, and has set for us "a name better than sons and daughters" because of it when we walk with Jesus Christ.

-John S. Dixon

"Equal rights are not special rights unless you're the one who doesn't have them."

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Elodin:
People should act consistently what they believe. That's why they shouldn't hold crazy beliefs.

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"We have forsaken all and followed thee"...

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"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

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"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth."

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"I am not come to destroy the law." The prophets I understand - he has come to fulfil their prophecies. But one can't abolish a law by following it. If a murderer is punished according to the law, does that mean that the law is no longer valid because it has been fulfilled? No. Then why would it be that way in this case?

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Luk 24:44  And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luk 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

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Rom 6:15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

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Rom 7:6  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

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Rom 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

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Gal 2:19  For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

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Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

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Heb 7:11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

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Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

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Heb 7:28  For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

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Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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Become poor and give away all your worldly wealth (this doesn't just mean give to charity - it means impoverish yourself).

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Math is absolute(1), the purpose of math is calculate out absolute(1). 2 + 2 = 4, if i got 2 sheeps over there and another 2 sheeps over there somewhere i got 4 sheeps. I do not have 3 or 5, that would be incorrect and not the truth.

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@Elodin: your anti-socialist ideas bother me, being a socialist myself (btw, I'm not an atheist, weird huh? ). Not all socialists are that kind of oppressors, that can happen in capitalism too and is called imperialism  

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And that means, should s state decide to protect children from too encompassing and influencing religious teachings and make laws that would forbid children to become FULL member of any religion before they reach a certain age, you'd simply have to accept or leave.

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It is important to note that wherever the conditions of salvation are discussed, sexuality is never mentioned.

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3) If you would care to read the book of Acts you would see that the early church met in each other's houses. Therefore since the beievers owned houses it is impossible that your "interpretaton" of the teachings of Jesus is correct.

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If Jesus had said "stone her" they would have turned him in to the Roman authorities.

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Meek means you rely on God, not on your own abilities.

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The Law was not destroyed. It was fulfilled in Christ.

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I don't think that's how it should be interpreted. The "be poor" is simply to avoid temptation of wealth.

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