|
| Thread: What is a religion and what is not. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted May 21, 2009 02:36 AM |
|
|
You can't have an organisation based around nothing. As atheism is the lack of belief, you can't expect it to inspire anyone to do anything. It's like saying, "There are many houses made out of bricks. How many houses are there made out of the substance 'not-bricks'?" when there is no such substance as 'not-bricks'.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 03:58 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Yes, I said religion should not be opperessed. How do you find that to be me trying to "enforce in modern society" something? Unless you think you should be free to oppress others.
If religion should not be oppressed, then it is bad to oppress religion. Hence you are against actions that oppress religion. As a consequence you strive not to oppress religion. Better now? And no, I don't think we are free to oppress others; never said that.
Quote:
Quote:
Christian organizations help children in Africa, because as a side-effect they are going to indoctrinate them and make their religion prevail among others, which is among their primary goals.
False statement. Yes, Christians share the gospel with everyone. But Christians help people out of love, not in some conspiracty to trick people into believing the gospel.
No conspiracy, and I agree with you. There is a side-effect though.
Quote:
Quote:
Atheists, in general help and hope in something beyond religion.
I'm sorry but the lack of atheist orgainizations bely your comment.
More or less mvassilev answered this.
Quote:
I have only seen atheist organizations such as "Freedom From Religion" that try to oppress the rights of others to practice their religion. I don't see them doing any charitable work at all.
May be because they don't care to "show off"?
Quote:
UNICEF was formed by the UN not by atheists.
And UN is beyond religion. I never said it was formed by atheists. They are helping children in the purest form of helping others.
Quote:
Quote:
As I asked earlier. Regarding this life, what does religion offer that the legal system and education, do not have the potential to provide?
That is not what you asked. You said "Why do we need religion and don't we just reside on education and the legal system? What are the benefits a religion gives us? Or is it all about afterlife in the end?"
To me you were saying religion has no beneficial effects to society and that it is only about the afterlife. But it is obvious thatsuch a thing is not true.
Agreed. You misunderstood me.
Quote:
Atheism does not inspire one to charity. Again, if it does, where are all the atheist charities?
May be atheists don't care to prove something to each individual religion?
Quote:
Yes, one can donate to charity without being religious. But the fact of the matter is that religious people are more likely to be charitable than a nonreligious person.
I am not sure about that given all the "Christians" you can find out there.
Quote:
A person can begin as "scum" and be transformed by the Spirit of God into a good human being. What is the transformational power of atheism? Do people begin as "scum" and suddenly "see the light of atheism" and become a better human being? I have never observed such a thing.
You should accept though, that I have never observed that "transformational" power by the Spirit of God to "scums" too. As of treating atheism like a religion, it is a legal trick in this world so that atheists are not "handicapped" in terms of rights in this world. Atheism is not a real religion.
____________
The empty set
|
|
Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 04:40 AM |
|
Edited by Celfious at 04:41, 21 May 2009.
|
hey did I post anywhere I put my pizza in the oven???
I wouldn't ask but my God said it was ok..
anyone remember??
I could swear I twittered it or something.. dang..
edit: what I am looking for is an approximate time... I put it in the oven.. I dont want to burn my pizza..
____________
What are you up to
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 04:55 AM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 04:56, 21 May 2009.
|
No but I think God will not have a problem with you eating pizza and maybe the forum gods won't mind a light offtopic post.  If you don't remember the time you'll have to check the oven and see how it looks.
Speaking of which a pizza sounds pretty good about now. I usually make homemade pizza. On short notice I make a flatbread pizza. I can have the dough mixed, topped and in the oven pretty quick.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 05:32 AM |
|
|
Quote:
You can't have an organisation based around nothing.
That's why there are atheist gatherings and "atheist signs", right? No organization 
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 05:36 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Yes and no. Science is basically a "meta-subject" called NO which means (N)atural (O)riented subjects and it contains Biology, Physics and Chemistry.
But then in SO (Social Oriented Subjects) there is Geography, History, Society and Religion.
Religion in swedish schools is used to better understand other cultures and beliefs.
But the most interesting religion has been in our Swedish classes where we have studied the old religions Norse and Greek mythology. I just love the Aesir and Vanir and elves, dwarves, trolls and giants etc.
I also like that norse mythology actually makes sense, as the mythologial world falls at the ending catalysm Ragnarök and a world dominated by humans (although the embrace of the gods still lives on) rises instead.
Greek mythology was weird and Zeus was a freaking rapist but I still liked it. School doesnt seem to like Egypt though 
Yeah, mythology is pretty awesome, and it makes for interesting reading.
Egyptian gods are kind of lame anyways, all they have are animal heads. Norse gods are much better. 
____________
They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 05:54 AM |
|
|
Quote:
That's why there are atheist gatherings and "atheist signs", right? No organization
Those are "freedom from religion" organisations, not atheist organisations per se.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 06:10 AM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 06:11, 21 May 2009.
|
Quote:
Quote:
That's why there are atheist gatherings and "atheist signs", right? No organization
Those are "freedom from religion" organisations, not atheist organisations per se.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461424,00.html
Quote:
There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds
From the above quote of signs they put next to nativity scenes you see it is not only an atheist organization but anti-theist.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 10:28 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
You claim, that you are protestant and young children are allowed to eat the body of Christ?
Yep. You are very mistaken if you think that only Catholics believe that Chrsit is present in the communion. I quoted a verses thst showed Christ is in the communion elements.
And certainly I have stated a number ro times on the board that I am protestant.
Ok, that's a slight misunderstanding - I've mistaken one thing for another. What I mean is this here (comments from me in Italics):
Quote:
Confirmation is a rite of initiation in many Christian Churches, normally in the form of laying on of hands and/or anointing for the purpose of bestowing the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. In some denominations, confirmation bestows full membership in the church upon the recipient...
Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Churches, and Anglicans view Confirmation as a sacrament. In the East it is conferred on infants immediately after baptism, but in the West it is usually administered later at the age of reason or in early adolescence.
In Protestant Churches, the rite tends to be seen rather as a mature statement of faith by an already baptised person. However, it is required by most Protestant denominations for membership in the respective church, in particular for traditional Protestant faiths. In traditional Protestant faiths (Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Evangelical etc.) it is recognized by a coming of age ceremony.
...[The next is about how it was handled in the Western part of Europe before the Protestant Reformation]...
The main reason why the West separated the sacrament of Confirmation from that of Baptism was to reestablish direct contact between the person being initiated with the Bishop. In the early Church, the Bishop administered all three sacraments of initiation (Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist), assisted by the priests and deacons and, where they existed, by deaconesses for women's Baptism. The post-baptismal chrismation in particular was reserved to the Bishop. When adults no longer formed the majority of those being baptised, this chrismation was delayed until the Bishop could confer it. Until the twelfth century, priests often continued to confer Confirmation before giving Communion to very young children.[8]
After the Fourth Lateran Council, Communion, which continued to be given only after Confirmation, was to be administered only on reaching the age of reason.
...[and now the Lutheran views]
Lutheran confirmation is a public profession of faith prepared for by long and careful instruction. In English, it is called "affirmation of baptism", and is a mature and public profession of the faith which "marks the completion of the congregation's program of confirmation ministry". The German language also uses for Lutheran confirmation a different word (Konfirmation) from the word used for the sacramental rite of the Catholic Church (Firmung).
Lutheran Churches do not treat confirmation as a dominical sacrament of the Gospel, considering that only baptism and the eucharist (and, among some Lutherans, sacramental confession) can be regarded.
[This following is important as well]
In other Protestant churches, confirmation is often called a "rite" rather than a sacrament, and is held to be merely symbolic rather than an effective means of conferring divine grace. In Protestant groups where baptism in the early teens is the norm, confirmation is often not practiced at all
Catholic practise at that time was giving all three of the sacraments - baptising, eucharist and confirmation - ever earlier. While initially Communion was to be given only after Confirmation, that practise changed later.
One thing that protestants would split from the catholics was that they didn't agree with the Catholic practise to make very young children full members of the Church. They would either baptize late (which seems to be your direction) and/or having a late Confirmation as a coming-of-age rite of full membership, marking the willing and knowing commitment to their religion on the brink of becoming an adult.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Children are children. Society and the law doesn't deem them fully responsible for their doings or fully capable of living on their own. They are considered very vulnerable and suggestible as well. It is normal and usual that children may be taught and told things, but there are no decisions made for them that are considered their own when adult. While this was different in earlier times, today most parents wouldn't dream about deciding for their children what profession they will take when grown-up.
Religion isn't any different. In fact it's BECAUSE religion is deemed important by its followers, FULL and FINAL membership should be given as an adult only and as a willing and knowing decision.
It is important to see that it makes no sense to create exceptions in laws and rules for religion purposes. Religion doesn't rule over laws and societies, but if it is given extra and special rights it does exactly that as has been proven for 1500 years.
|
|
Darmo
Known Hero
True Gentleman
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 11:15 AM |
|
|
Quote:
It is important to see that it makes no sense to create exceptions in laws and rules for religion purposes. Religion doesn't rule over laws and societies, but if it is given extra and special rights it does exactly that as has been proven for 1500 years.
There are some country which its law is based on religion
____________
 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 11:20 AM |
|
|
|
Yes, that's possible of course. You can create a society or state BASED on one specific religion. In that case, though, religion would still not be above the law because it would determine the law.
|
|
Darmo
Known Hero
True Gentleman
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 11:32 AM |
|
|
In that kind of country, the constitution is based on religion so the religion is above the law. I think.
____________
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 11:47 AM |
|
|
Quote:
They would either baptize late (which seems to be your direction) and/or having a late Confirmation as a coming-of-age rite of full membership, marking the willing and knowing commitment to their religion on the brink of becoming an adult.
What the Bible teaches is that baptism is to be in response to a person believing the gospel of Christ and desireing to submit himself to obedience to Christ. Baptism is a command of Christ for all who desire to follow him.
So my direction is not to either baptise a child early or late. It is to baptise a child or an adult who understands that they have sinned and that Jesus died for their sins and that Christ commanded them to be baptised as a part of obeying the gospel ot Christ.
I would never forbid any person from being baptised who repents of their sin and who wants to obey Chirst's command to be baptised.
I would never baptise an infant because an infant has no capacity for understanding or obeying the gospel of Chirst.
Communion likewise should not be given to anyone who is not a believer already.
So to sum it up. No infant is eligible for Biblical baptism. No person who has not repented of their sins is eligible for baptism. No person can ever be forced be baptised because valid baptism is a response of the person's desire to live in obedience to the commands of Christ. Before a person can be baptised he must have a basic understanding of the gospel of Christ.
It is immoral to forbid a child who understands the gospel of Christ to be baptised. His eternal soul is at stake if he does not obey Christ when he comes to understand what the gospel is. So if I still had a small child at home and he showed me he understood the gospel of Christ and expressed a desire to be baptised you would have to kill me to pervent my child from being baptised.
Quote:
Society and the law doesn't deem them fully responsible for their doings or fully capable of living on their own.
When society told the apostles not to preach any more in the name of Jesus they said "We must obey God rather than men." When a child comes to a spiritual understanding of the gospel is is accountable to God and you or no other person has a right to interfere with his obedience to Christ.
Quote:
It is important to see that it makes no sense to create exceptions in laws and rules for religion purposes. Religion doesn't rule over laws and societies, but if it is given extra and special rights it does exactly that as has been proven for 1500 years.
Society does not rule over true religion. You can't overrule God no matter how much you want to. So you have no right to interfere with any child who wants to obey God.
Churches went underground in the USSR, China, and other socialist nations exactly because of the attitudes you are expressing. The state has no right to regulate the church. A government beaurocrat has no right to say when a child can be baptise or partake of communion.
Millions of Christians have died because of their faith. The Roman pagans boiled us in oil, fed us to lions, burned us as human torches and killed us in varios other ways. Yet Chrisitans refused to bow their knee to the state. Jesus is Lord, not the state.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 12:00 PM |
|
|
@ Darmo
No, because the law has been made with a SPECIFIC religion in mind. You may say that state and specific religion are not separated. Therefore religion is law.
That would mean, that everyone had to follow, no matter the religion.
Example: Let's say a religion says that a certain day of the week should be holy and nothing should be done.
1) You have a state based on that religion. In that state you make it a law to have all shops closed on that day, whether you are a member of that religion or not. In this case religion isn't above the law, it IS the law.
2) You say everyone can open and close their shops as they like, provided it's not too loud, too bright and so on at night (and other mundane considerations). This is just a law that doesn't care about religion at all, it just gives people the freedom to do what they want with their shops.
This is a case where the law allows everyone to follow their religion without any extra rights.
@ Elodin
You seem to forget that the whole of Christianity is not in agreement. That wars have been fought between them about what is the right belief and what is the wrong one.
YOU (your style of Christianity) say, baptism of infants isn't right - but a big part of Christianity thinks otherwise. Why should you be right, but the others wrong? Why should any of them be right?
For children: if society would say that children cannot get those sacraments because they should do it as adults and willingly - how could god blame the children for that? How could the immortal soul of the children be at stake for laws that the adults make?
That would be injust, and god wouldn't be injust, so you just have no point there.
In fact the rituals don't count much anyway, since god is supposed to look into the hearts of men, not into what rituals they perform. Everyone can perform a ritual.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 01:57 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 14:00, 21 May 2009.
|
Quote:
.
YOU (your style of Christianity) say, baptism of infants isn't right - but a big part of Christianity thinks otherwise. Why should you be right, but the others wrong? Why should any of them be right?
I don't forbid them to baptize infants. But the Bible says the requirement for baptism is belief. An infant can't believe the gospel. There is not a single instance of an infant being baptized in the Bible.
Quote:
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Quote:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Quote:
For children: if society would say that children cannot get those sacraments because they should do it as adults and willingly - how could god blame the children for that?
The child would be blamed for chosing to bow to the will of man rather than to the will of God. Christ is to be first place in our lives, not the state.
Quote:
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Quote:
In fact the rituals don't count much anyway, since god is supposed to look into the hearts of men, not into what rituals they perform. Everyone can perform a ritual
Christianity has nothing that is only a ritual. Baptism is not just a ritual. Communion is not just a ritual. Christ is present in communion. Baptism washes away the old sins one committed prior to that point.
Quote:
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Quote:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Quote:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Quote:
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 02:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
From the above quote of signs they put next to nativity scenes you see it is not only an atheist organization but anti-theist.
It is a "freedom from religion" organisation. It's not formed around atheism. It's formed around freedom from religion.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 03:11 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 15:12, 21 May 2009.
|
Quote:
Quote:
From the above quote of signs they put next to nativity scenes you see it is not only an atheist organization but anti-theist.
It is a "freedom from religion" organisation. It's not formed around atheism. It's formed around freedom from religion.
Quote:
There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds
The above statement of theirs says there is only the natural world. No God. No angels. No demons. Nothing but what you can see and touch.
And then it slams religion by saying religion is only a myth and religious peoople are hard hearted and mentally enslaved.
I don't see how you can possibly say that is not an atheist organization (and anti-theist to boot.
Now, have a look at some of their bus signs. More anti-theist statements.
http://www.ffrf.org/busbillboard/allimg.php
Now, I agree that not all atheists are anti-theists. But that particular organization certainly is.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 03:25 PM |
|
|
If you prefer, it is an anti-theist organisation. But it is founded around anti-theism (although anti-religion would be a more accurate term), not around atheism.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 04:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
For children: if society would say that children cannot get those sacraments because they should do it as adults and willingly - how could god blame the children for that?
The child would be blamed for chosing to bow to the will of man rather than to the will of God. Christ is to be first place in our lives, not the state.
This is another highpoint in absurdity. Children are supposed to rebel against the adults, when they will be asked, say, with 15 whether they want to become officailly part of that religon, then being baptised, then having their first communion, and god would hold it against them that they didn't?
How stupid this god would be you always talk about. Sounds more like some demon.
Quote:
Quote:
In fact the rituals don't count much anyway, since god is supposed to look into the hearts of men, not into what rituals they perform. Everyone can perform a ritual
Christianity has nothing that is only a ritual. Baptism is not just a ritual. Communion is not just a ritual. Christ is present in communion. Baptism washes away the old sins one committed prior to that point.
Not so. No matter how much real thing may be into all of those rituals, they are not enough to turn people. Some priests are doing horrible things, even though they do the rituals each day.
I always thought BELIEF would be a necessary prerequisite. If you don't believe it's all for naught anyway. If you are not honest, it's or naught as well.
Children, now, children belief in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, fairy tales and whatnot - because they believe what adults tell them.
The bottom line is, that you have to give children the opportunity to form an opinion INDEPEDENTLY, before you hand out the benefactions of belief.
See it this way: From your point of view lots of people believe something that's not the truth. Why? Because they have been taught something wrong and never and "got their mind made up" for them. This would be different if religion would be handled differently. As it is, it's mainly a competition of believing adults to get their children firmly into the belief they find right.
It shouldn't be that way.
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted May 21, 2009 04:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Society does not rule over true religion. You can't overrule God no matter how much you want to. So you have no right to interfere with any child who wants to obey God.
Churches went underground in the USSR, China, and other socialist nations exactly because of the attitudes you are expressing. The state has no right to regulate the church.
A government beaurocrat has no right to say when a child can be baptise or partake of communion.
In Soviet they only cut of the state support at first, and that was about it. The rest happend to the rest of the country and religions too. The chinese are also complex, they did only take over a few places but really nothing more. What they did to Tibet they also kind of did to themself(leap forward i think it was called).
What the byrocrats got the right to say is that: "No smoking til you know what smoking is, and its your choice". You don't go around and force 5-year olds to smoke sigarets do you? Well atleast not you, but there are groups doing someting similar, religious or not.
Quote:
Millions of Christians have died because of their faith. The Roman pagans boiled us in oil, fed us to lions, burned us as human torches and killed us in varios other ways. Yet Chrisitans refused to bow their knee to the state. Jesus is Lord, not the state.
You dare not to forget women, atheists, scientists and similar that has died because of what they was and belived. New religions are viewed as plagues, specialy to tyrants.
Quote:
And then it slams religion by saying religion is only a myth and religious peoople are hard hearted and mentally enslaved.
I don't see how you can possibly say that is not an atheist organization (and anti-theist to boot.
Now, have a look at some of their bus signs. More anti-theist statements.
"A certain Christian sect belive in sacrificing virgins and lambs, thus they are all evil people!" -random quote
And besides, they are not Atheists. Athemisme equals lack of faith, they are into the "there is NOT!"-trend of "Godlesness". And they are formed around as mvass said.
____________
|
| |
|
|
