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| Thread: Intolerance of religion much? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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baklava
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posted August 21, 2009 12:15 PM |
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Quote:
people have strange ideas about Germany.
Better safe than sorry.
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you got the blues."
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JollyJoker
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posted August 21, 2009 12:31 PM |
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A bit late for that one, are we now?
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baklava
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posted August 21, 2009 01:57 PM |
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Better late than never. ^^
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Lexxan
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posted August 21, 2009 03:12 PM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 15:18, 21 Aug 2009.
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Scientology A Religion?
In Dutch we have two different words, both of which translate as "Religion" (in both English and German)
These words are "Religie" and "Godsdienst". The Latter means "Service of God", thus defines a religion which believes in one or multiple gods, like Christianity or Hinduism, while the Former however has a more broader meaning.
"Religie" in Dutch can be define as a Whole of Symbols and representations related under one true faith. This Faith is a Belief, but not nessecairily one in a or more Gods. The Belief's main function is to explain the certain things humans know little or nothing about, using those rites and symbols: In other words, the Paranormal, Good and Evil, and Life and Death.
Apart from the Ever-Present amount of Rites and Symbols, Religions are surrounded with a form of Sacrality. Believers feel that there is something: something that is beautifull yet Terrible, Awesome yet Gruesome, Always Present yet constantly distant. This means that there are certain things or symbols, like a Crucifix or a Religious Book (Bible, Qu'ran) are seen as untouchable and/or priceless. M Sociology Book says the following:
Quote:
A Religion distinguishes two different Dimensions: The Pronane (: the Mundane, Mortal World), and the Sacred (: everything that is handled with respect the utmost care)
So we have seen two elements of religions alread, but there is however a third element of Religions: The Precense of Rituals a Certain Moral Code, which in essence tell the believer how he or she should live and act, if (s)he's a true believer. (Circumsicion, Baptizing, Marriage, Vegetarianism, Dancing Naked around Campfires, you name it)
So The Elements of a Relgion are:
1) Symbols and Rites which are used to Understand the Unknown
2) The Sense of Sacrality: Respect and Anxiety to the Sacred.
3) Prescribed Rituals and Morals: How Believer should act
In essence a Religion is not:
A) A belief in one or More Gods (Poly-or Monotheism). Buddhism and Taoism are religions, but they have no Gods at all.
B) A Moral System: Most religions have Morals, but some have none at all.
C) An Explanation of how the World was Created: Most Religions, like Judaism and Cristianity offer Explanations about the Creation of the World (Genesis), while Confucianism, another religion, completely lacks this aspect.
D) The Paranormal: Some Religions believe in the Paranormal (Afterlife, Deities, etc), like the Roman Polytheism or Islam, but yet again Confucianism lacks this completely.
The above is not my own definition of Religion: it is the International Definition.
[Nota Bene: In case you were doubting about Confucianism being a religion, note that is HAS Symbols, Rites, Rituals, and Sacrality, despite the facts that it lacks the Divine and Paranormal effects that other religions, like (Buddhism, Taoism or Judaism) have.]
So I Scientology a Religion or not? Know that Scientology might be nothing more than a Religious Orgnanization. Organizations are not Religions though, so I'll explain the types of Organizations to you before I move on:
There are Five Types or Religious Organizations: Churches, Sekts, Demonations, Cults and Millenaristic Movements.
Churches are Religious Organizations, in which followers are Born, rather than they joined themselves. Churches have their roots in Society, and are usually a variation of a Religion. They are not aggressive.
An Examples of Churches are the Baptism, Jehova's Witnesses and Presbyterianism
Sects are the polar opposite of Churches: they have no roots with Society, and instead of working with and in it, like Churches do, the work against it. Sects loathe society as it is, and prefer to make their own one instead. They seek to aqcuite as much followers as possible, by both Birth and Recruitement. Because most of Sects lack a Prescribed Moral Code, Sekts are overall quite Aggressive, especially to outsiders.
Denominations are a Cross between Sects and Churches; they are, like Churches, Religious Subgroups, but their roots are an odd mixture of Sectic, Religious, and Mystical Rites and Beliefs. Denominations are created when Sects cool down and settle with society. Understandably, Denominations are not Aggressive at all.
Cults are possibly the simplest of all Religious Organizations: Cults worship A Specific Person, on a Specific Location on a Specific Time. They can have roots in Religions, but that is not obligatory. The Reverance of Elvis Presley in Memphis or of Mother Mary in Lourdes are examples of Cults. Cultists tend to be more fanatic than Members of Churches and Donominations, but this depends on who or what is worshipped.
Finally, we have Millenaristic Movements, which are by far the easiest to recognize: Basically the are the Lore of the End. You must have seen those guys with their sigh with "the End is coming"?. That's them. Millenaristic Movements preach the end of time. Basically, they are Cults of Armaggeddon.
So IS Scientology a Religious Organization or a Religion?
That is for you to decide. Some will call it a religion, some a Sect, others a Church. IMHO, Scientology is a Denomination, a Mixture or Christian beliefs and Atheistic, Enlightened Morals.
On subject of Germany, I think they exaggerated a bit, Scientology does imo not fit the profile of a Sect. Imo, it is a Religious Organization that seeks its own answers about a world nobody understands. As long as they don't harm others, I'm fine with whatever they do.
This is after all OSM, I leave the discussion to you. I've said my piece, now it's your turn to do so.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
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posted August 21, 2009 04:13 PM |
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JJ & Lexxan: perhaps the title isn't clear and I apologize for that. I wasn't talking only about religion, but the "free-to-believe" concept (not necessarily religious belief). For example, can you deny someone access to sell his software because, let's say, he believes in aliens? Or that he believes his mother was abducted by aliens? (just few examples of non-religious belief)
It's not that you deny him that matters, it's the REASON.
And I've never been in Germany so obviously, I only comment on what I read/hear.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 21, 2009 04:54 PM |
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It's as I say. What's so difficult to understand?
A SINGLE person can say, when answering
Religion: Scientology
That is accepted and was decided by court.
However, the Church of Scientology as an Organization is NOT considered a religionous one in Germany, legally spoken, due to the fact that it's a PROFIT organization led like a corp that cashes in massively from its members for "religious services".
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TheDeath
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posted August 21, 2009 05:12 PM |
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I don't care whether it is accepted or recognized, that wasn't my point. My point was that it's no free-belief anymore (I'm again NOT talking about the religion or Church, let's assume that Scientology is not a religion). This is what I have issue with:Quote:
The Scientologist chief executive of a U.S.-based software firm has lambasted German authorities who demanded a portion of Microsoft Corp.'s Windows 2000 designed by his firm be removed because of his religion.
I mean really. This isn't even about religion, if it isn't recognized. This is more about "we demand that you remove the software because the programmer believes/has the opinion of X." Don't you see?
I'm aware it might not be true but I can only comment on the article, like I said, I've never been to Germany.
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Elodin
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posted August 21, 2009 05:38 PM |
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@Lexxan
Yes, I would say God is beautiful and awesome, but ceertainly not Gruesome or distant.
[quuote]A Religion distinguishes two different Dimensions: The Pronane (: the Mundane, Mortal World), and the Sacred (: everything that is handled with respect the utmost care)
I don't see live as being a secular life and a sacred life. There is only one life. One world. All of life is sacred. To me there is no separation into the a mundane world and a sacred world. I do hold certain things sacred. For example places that are dedicated for worship or the Bible.
Quote:
2) The Sense of Sacrality: Respect and Anxiety to the Sacred.
I'm not sure what you mean by anxiety. Reverence?
I would disagree with the so called international definition of religion. Who developed that definition, by the way? A religion does not necessarily have rituals or a set moral code. Wica has no standard rituals and has no standard moral code.
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Churches are Religious Organizations, in which followers are Born, rather than they joined themselves. Churches have their roots in Society, and are usually a variation of a Religion. They are not aggressive.
An Examples of Churches are the Baptism, Jehova's Witnesses and Presbyterianism
That is incorrect. One is not born into a Christian church. One has to make a decision to repent and obey the gospel of Christ to become a Christian. I have never been to a local church where a child born to Christian parents is automatically a member of the church and that concept is not Biblical. To become a Christian one must respond to the gospel of Christ.
The Christian church is to evangelize according to Jesus. Is that what you call aggressive?
Quote:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
A denomination is a group of individual local churches who share certain doctrines that they believe to be important. The churches in a denomination work together to support missionaries and for various other ministries.
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That's them. Millenaristic Movements preach the end of time. Basically, they are Cults of Armaggeddon.
All Christian churches have a concept of the end time.
It is obvious to me that Scientology is a religion. One that I don't agree with, but every person has a right to practice their religious beliefs.
There is the "What is a religion" thread to debate what is a religion and what is not a religion.
The question is about tolerance. I say all people have a right to practice their religion unless their practices hurt others, like human sacrifice.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 21, 2009 05:40 PM |
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The question is, whether Scientology is a religion or not.
No it's not.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 21, 2009 06:22 PM |
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@ Death
That wasn't the point (it wasn't about religion).
It had nothing to do with "religion" it all, but it had to do with the fact that German government and others are mistrusting scientology as a political and economic organization. They simply required, since Diskeeper had been developed by a corp the boss of which was a scientologist, to check whether Diskeeper might have hidden properties, for example to send PC information via the internet. That's why W2K got on hold in Germany, to wait for an official testing about that.
However, Microsoft made a deal before that and provided a tool for deinstallation of diskeeper, so the necessity to test the stuff wasn't there anymore.
Of course Jensen came up with the religion stuff, but you have to understand that it hasn't got to do anything with the RELIGION aspect.
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del_diablo
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posted August 21, 2009 06:55 PM |
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Quote:
Churches are Religious Organizations, in which followers are Born, rather than they joined themselves. Churches have their roots in Society, and are usually a variation of a Religion. They are not aggressive.
An Examples of Churches are the Baptism, Jehova's Witnesses and Presbyterianism
Bad choice of words, but its partially true.
They stay in a area, and build a structure and gains follows from most people of every generation and stands there. While its a lot of born into, that only applies for the last 50 years to be able to NOT be born into a religion 100% of the time?
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TheDeath
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posted August 21, 2009 07:15 PM |
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Of course Jensen came up with the religion stuff, but you have to understand that it hasn't got to do anything with the RELIGION aspect.
Yes I realize and I did apologize for wrong title 
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Lexxan
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posted August 21, 2009 10:46 PM |
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Elodin,
Quote:
Yes, I would say God is beautiful and awesome, but ceertainly not Gruesome or distant.
Yeah, I admit it's a bad Choice of words... I think that Intimidating would be a better word. The point is that there is something to keep the believers in line; The word I translated was "Huiveringwekkend", which can also mean Sinister or appalling. I think intimidating is more appropriate tho. In Christianity, you can describe the Awesome as God and His blessings (or everything that is desirable), and the Gruesome as Satan and His curses (or everything that is undesirable). Living a Bad life will lead to misfortune and agony, while living a good live leads to Happiness and Redemption. Good and Evil f corse depend from religion to religion; A Good life in Buddhism is not equal to that in Islam or Animism. That's how I interpreted it anyway.
Quote:
Quote:
A Religion distinguishes two different Dimensions: The Pronane (: the Mundane, Mortal World), and the Sacred (: everything that is handled with respect the utmost care)
I don't see live as being a secular life and a sacred life. There is only one life. One world. All of life is sacred. To me there is no separation into the a mundane world and a sacred world. I do hold certain things sacred. For example places that are dedicated for worship or the Bible.
That's not what I meant: the Sacred and Mundane World are the difference between Mortal and Immortal, between Religious and Not-Religious. The Mundane "World" is everything which is not associated with the Symbols and Rites of Religion, while the Sacred "World" is consists of nothing else. Of course, there are no "two dimensional worlds", but you can, if you believe see it as this: The World of Mortals, (the world of You and I) and the Heaven/Hell. Like I sad before, the Gruesome and the Awesome vs the Mundane.
Quote:
2) The Sense of Sacrality: Respect and Anxiety to the Sacred.
I'm not sure what you mean by anxiety. Reverence?
I would disagree with the so called international definition of religion. Who developed that definition, by the way? A religion does not necessarily have rituals or a set moral code. Wica has no standard rituals and has no standard moral code.
Quote:
Churches are Religious Organizations, in which followers are Born, rather than they joined themselves. Churches have their roots in Society, and are usually a variation of a Religion. They are not aggressive.
An Examples of Churches are the Baptism, Jehova's Witnesses and Presbyterianism
Quote:
That is incorrect. One is not born into a Christian church.
I admit I got a bit carried away there, with giving these examples. A young man's arrogance. However, the description I gave of Churches is the one I learned from my course. They are Religions Organizations that come directly from a Religion, and followers are rather born in it than Join. I know it's vague and open to interpretation, but then again, other religions also have splinter groups, have they not?
And, it is known that Christianity has grown from a Jewishly-based Sect to a Denomination to a Religion. Calvinism and Orthodox christianity used to be Churches before they were recognized as religions.
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The Christian church is to evangelize according to Jesus. Is that what you call aggressive?
I said that Churches are not Aggressive. Sects are Aggressive, but Churches and denominations are not.
Quote:
A denomination is a group of individual local churches who share certain doctrines that they believe to be important. The churches in a denomination work together to support missionaries and for various other ministries.
And Like I said, Denominations are evolved froms from Sects and Churches - Let's just say that they are between Organization and Religion.
But anyway, your definition is completely correct.
Quote:
That's them. Millenaristic Movements preach the end of time. Basically, they are Cults of Armaggeddon.
All Christian churches have a concept of the end time.
Yes, but they do not Preach the end of time - Christianity does talk about Judgement day, but I have yet to see a Priest actively preach that the End of Times is near.
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It is obvious to me that Scientology is a religion. One that I don't agree with, but every person has a right to practice their religious beliefs.
Well, you naturally are right. However, like JJ said, the true nature of Scientology is shrouded in mystery. I wonder why, actually. Everyone can easily look up for religious rites of, let's say, Hiduism without much problems. Of course, there are elements the uniniciated cannot see, but the essence is obvious. Scientology is different - we know little to nothing about their rites and customs... It could be because they see everything as sacred, becasue of their code (like Free-Masons have) or because they do things no-one, especially the authorities, may know about. The problem is is that none, except the initiates (which may not speak about it) know what's happening. Secrets and Lies, 'tis what they're good at.
On the account, I find that Scientology is NOT religion - I say it's an unrefined, rough from of a relgion (Religions do not evolve as fast as Scientology does) - Currently, it's a Denomination at most.
Quote:
The question is about tolerance. I say all people have a right to practice their religion unless their practices hurt others, like human sacrifice
Indeed - I am troubled that the man was discriminated just because he was scientology - there still is something as the Universal right of believing in whatever you want. Discriminating because of beliefs is prejudicial and unfair, from either side. <*shakes head*> it's shamefull, such behaviour.
However, I do not know the complete context of the situation - If Scientology is indeed a Financial Organization rather than a Religious one, the whole incident may be a whole new dimension.
If Scientology is not religious, it will turn out to be something like Free-Masonry (or will be disbanded over time) - if it indeed is religious it will eventually evolve to a religion.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
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posted August 21, 2009 10:59 PM |
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Quote:
However, I do not know the complete context of the situation - If Scientology is indeed a Financial Organization rather than a Religious one, the whole incident may be a whole new dimension.
WHY?
What has his SOFTWARE got to do with it? More importantly, what has the fact that he is in it has to do with anything, since his software did not have anything to do with it (even if "scientology" was "evil" or something)?
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Lexxan
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posted August 21, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
However, I do not know the complete context of the situation - If Scientology is indeed a Financial Organization rather than a Religious one, the whole incident may be a whole new dimension.
WHY?
What has his SOFTWARE got to do with it? More importantly, what has the fact that he is in it has to do with anything, since his software did not have anything to do with it (even if "scientology" was "evil" or something)?
It MAY get a new Dimension if an Organization that is described as purely Religious, turnes out to be Purel Financial and Kapitalistic. Then why bother to call yourself Religious then? Because you wish to mask your own not-so-well-liked intentions?
The above is Speculation, of course. Most likely (like in 99%) the fact that the whole incident (save he fact that he was descriminated because of it) has little to do with Scientology - I myself see it as a man who just tried to do his job, and was denied so, because of his beliefs, and that is regrettable..
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TheDeath
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posted August 21, 2009 11:32 PM |
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Then why bother to call yourself Religious then?
I call myself TheDeath online too.
Does that affect my software, for instance?
That's like saying, if we find out Val has an interest in X (let's not name it for no further off-topicness), that somehow changes HC as we know it.
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Lexxan
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posted August 21, 2009 11:45 PM |
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TheDeath, there is a big difference.
You call yourself TheDeath, but everyone knows you are not Dead or Death itself - You also don't claim it.
Should you turn out to be Human, like everyone expects, no one will be shocked. Besides, this is virtual reality where everyone picks his/her own preferred identity. I of course am not a Dwarf or a Bird in RL lol, but my I Virtual Identity is Lexxan, the Flaming Eagle stuff thing.
Scientology calls itself religious, and most see it a something religious - They also claim it, and of course, they are real, not vitural.
Should Scientology turn out to be Kapitalistic, Selfinterested and Financial (DeadMan should hear me talk lol!) only keen on extoriating money from naive followers, to fill up the Leaders' bank accounts. (Speculation like I said before)
There IS a difference. It is subtle... but it is there.
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TheDeath
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posted August 21, 2009 11:51 PM |
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TheDeath, there is a big difference.
You call yourself TheDeath, but everyone knows you are not Dead or Death itself - You also don't claim it.
My point was, what does it matter what I call myself? What does it matter that I am an atheist or a christian (example) in an "electronic circuits" debate? (for example)
It's like the saying: "argue with the post's points, not the person". Same here. Argue with his software, not WHAT HE BELIEVES IN or what member he is or anything else which has no relationship.
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Should Scientology turn out to be Kapitalistic, Selfinterested and Financial (DeadMan should hear me talk lol!) only keen on extoriating money from naive followers, to fill up the Leaders' bank accounts. (Speculation like I said before)
I still don't see what it has to do with a guy's software who happens to believe in it. Not that the software ITSELF is made for scientology mind you.
That's like treating a Christian or a black person different simply because he IS that way, not what he does. If he kills, he kills, it doesn't matter if he believes in scientology, is black, or a christian, or he works for another for-profit organization (who cares?).
If he makes a piece of software (having nothing to do with his own identity and whatever), why would it matter that he is black, a christian or believes in scientology?
If you have issues with that organization, go and talk with him ABOUT IT, restrict stuff ABOUT IT if it's harmful, not ABOUT SOMETHING ElSE (e.g: his software).
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Lexxan
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posted August 21, 2009 11:56 PM |
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Since it's getting late and I tired, I'll just say "You're right" (roughly what I wished to say) and go on.
Quote Wars... Horrors.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 22, 2009 08:48 AM |
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@ Death
Are you kidding? I thought you'd understand.
In Germany Scientology has been thought of as something akin to a freemason lodge - note that it costs a believer a lot of money to "develop" into what this "religion" says everyone has been and should become.
In Germany officials are not quite sure what that "corporation" that has a really solid financial interest, is really up to. Their inner structures are pretty authoritarian (not unheard of with religions), but since the main purpose of the organization doesn't seem to be philantropic, there were second thoughts about whether it would be wise to allow a piece of software into a big percentage of PCs as long as the software wasn't checked thoroughly whether it really (and only) did what it was supposed to be.
What else is there to say about it? Look at it this way: if a North Korean software would suddenly become part of the next MS OS, what would they do in the US (and most other countries)?
Exactly, check it from top to bottom whether it really and only did what it was supposed to do.
What was it called? "Better safe than sorry"?
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