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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 24, 2009 10:42 PM |
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Binabik is right. You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, the current system isn't great, but this would be much worse.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted December 24, 2009 10:45 PM |
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Probably true.
Mind enlightening me on exactly why I (they, we) know nothing?
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted December 24, 2009 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
Binabik is right. You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, the current system isn't great, but this would be much worse.
You march behind the Great Stalin Obama on the way to communism
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 24, 2009 10:51 PM |
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Quote:
Binabik is right. You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, the current system isn't great, but this would be much worse.
Prove it.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 24, 2009 11:00 PM |
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OK, first myth: xx% of Americans don't have insurance and can't get health care.
Not true. I don't know the "real" number, but the numbers you constantly hear about are simply not true.
First, the so-called "poor" people in the US already have insurance. It's just not called "insurance", so if you want to lie with statistics for political reasons you can claim they don't have insurance.
Second, even people who really don't have insurance (i.e. they don't have their own insurance and they make too much money to get government insurance) still probably have insurance for some of the most common reasons that require medical care: car accidents, injuries at work, and a few other things.
Also, people who become disabled are partly, or entirely, covered by current government plans. (this system is highly abused by people who don't deserve it, and ineffective for people who do deserve - it somewhat depends on the state though)
The people most hurt by the current system are middle class people with no insurance who CAN afford to pay for moderate medical bills, but it seriously hurts them financially. If the bills become more than moderate, then they just go broke and the current government system would kick in.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted December 24, 2009 11:14 PM |
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Quote:
Not true. I don't know the "real" number, but the numbers you constantly hear about are simply not true.
First, the so-called "poor" people in the US already have insurance. It's just not called "insurance", so if you want to lie with statistics for political reasons you can claim they don't have insurance.
So if you lost your job, you likely lose your provider? If you live on the dole you are in grave danger?
And last time i checked the unemployment rate was 10%[Wikipedia], does that mean that those 10% are without healthcare?
Well 10% + whoever are stupid enough to not have?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 24, 2009 11:23 PM |
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Yeah, insurance being tied to employment is stupid and makes no sense. People should have their own. Poor people (and, if I'm not mistaken, some people on disability) qualify for Medicaid, which is government health insurance.
That said, health insurance is just not that great of an idea in the first place (or, at least, it's overused).
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted December 24, 2009 11:31 PM |
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If someone loses their job it depends on the situation.
First, they would probably qualify for temporary unemployment insurance which would provide income at approximately 50% of their previous income. Unemployment insurance doesn't cover medical costs though, it only provides income.
If they had medical insurance at work, they will be offered a cheap alternative which they pay for themselves. I think they can get this for up to a year.
If they didn't have insurance at work, then it depends on their income level. The government insurance is almost entirely income based. Below a certain income level the government insurance will cover 100% of the medical costs. Above that level it is graduated and will pay a lesser and lesser percent as the income increases. At some higher level they will have to pay for medical costs themselves. Note that the income level probably includes their income while they were still working. It is usually based on the income over the past year, but in some cases it is based on the income over a more recent period.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 24, 2009 11:41 PM |
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Well the UK certainly seems to be very public funded and doesn't seem like a collapsed country to me. On the other hand, Romanian health care is pretty pathetic and the public funding is minuscule in comparison.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 24, 2009 11:47 PM |
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Bin wrote:
Quote:
First of all, there is no such thing as "free".
This is really all that needs to be said on the issue.
Even if you put aside the bill itself and consider only the way in which it was pushed through - shady deals, pork, etc. - you can see that Obama's "Great Uniter" promise was a bunch of horse-snow. Some of the stuff that's come out of Harry Reid's mouth the last few days has just been appalling.
Finally, anyone who thinks this bill has been passed because the (Democrats) senators think it's in the best interests of American citizens is severely deluded, and you don't have to be against reform to see that. It's pretty clear that this is purely political. Doesn't it seem a coincidence that this has been rammed through right before the State of the Union address? Bills like this shouldn't be passed just because the president wants to brag that he's gotten something accomplished in his first year in office. Bills should be passed because they benefit Americans, not because they benefit the careers of individuals and the agendas of lobbyists.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted December 24, 2009 11:55 PM |
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Quote:
Bills should be passed because they benefit Americans, not because they benefit the careers of individuals and the agendas of lobbyists.
Last time i checked the lobbiest should NEVER be allowed to get any bills passed. Mostly because they tend to do a good job at hurting the marked, or the free trade.
And "public healthcare" such as the Norwegian one is a great benefit to the society, which is actually NOT in the interest of public scam companies that usually runs lobbies.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 25, 2009 12:05 AM |
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Death:
Actually, Britain is a decaying country in several ways, so it's not that great of an example.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 25, 2009 12:20 AM |
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Quote:
Death:
Actually, Britain is a decaying country in several ways, so it's not that great of an example.
What about in debt and unemployment and life expectancy? 
Britain is decaying only in areas the US is also decaying, because the US drags it down.
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted December 25, 2009 12:21 AM |
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A couple points.
The US isn't the UK, nor is it Sweden or Norway or Canada or any other country. It has it's own unique issues, and just because something works elsewhere doesn't mean it will work in the States.
About lobbyists. There are things I don't like about the current system, but before everyone demonizes lobbyists I'll point out that with virtually all issues there are lobbyists on BOTH sides of the issue. Why do you think cars have seat belts, air bags and other safety devices? Because of lobbyists. I'd guess that most Americans have lobbyists working for them in some capacity. If you're a member of Consumer’s Union, AAA, AARP, any labor union, Sierra Club, Nature Conservancy, in a job that depends on government grants or contracts, or thousands of other groups, then you have lobbyists working for you.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 25, 2009 01:32 AM |
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Death:
Yeah, but it doesn't spend as much on the military. And it has chavs and a terrible education system and government surveillance and bad food.
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Eccentric Opinion
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 25, 2009 01:39 AM |
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Quote:
First of all, there is no such thing as "free".
Second, this will be the ruin of the US health care system.
Third, this will be detrimental to health care around the world.
Forth, this will be a blow to the economy as a whole.
Summary: this will be a disaster.
I am pretty sure you fail completely in your "view of the future".
Why don't have other countries such economical problems you describe above even though they have "free healthcare" for the poor?
It is time for the american people to stop the selfish way of thinking and believe in the strength of a community. Economy and richness isn't ALL THERE IS in the world.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 25, 2009 01:50 AM |
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@Angelito
Quote:
It is time for the american people to stop the selfish way of thinking and believe in the strength of a community.
False choice fallacy. I'd like to know what makes you think a healthcare system operated and paid for by the federal government is the only route to a healthy and happy community, and that believing in anything short of such a system is akin to believing in money and power and other selfish goals and nothing else.
I believe that the best way to achieve efficiency and efficacy in certain necessary parts of society is through private enterprise, and not public, ineffecient, wasteful government-controlled beaurocracy. And frankly, I find the all-to-common insinuation that a person who believes such is inherently selfish, evil and/or compassionless to be very insulting. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted December 25, 2009 01:55 AM |
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Quote:
and not public, ineffecient, wasteful government-controlled beaurocracy.
And this is the only type of government? A good description of your local town governing body is it?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted December 25, 2009 01:59 AM |
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What is this, a festival of bigotry? Without me?
People are naturally afraid of what is unknown and alien.
Likewise, Americans are afraid of something suddenly not being about money.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted December 25, 2009 02:01 AM |
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Quote:
and a terrible education system and government surveillance and bad food.
these are all from the US dragging it down.
the surveillance for instance it got from the US during the terrorism obsession days.
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