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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 17, 2013 11:04 AM |
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Europe will certainly have to reform both healthcare and welfare systems sooner or later, but now is working and it did miracles during decades. Compared to America where 44 millions people have zero insurance, where 1 adult out of 4 declares bankruptcy due to medical expenses, Europe is heaven right now.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 17, 2013 02:14 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The US spends 18% of their GNP for health service, and that percentage will rise and rise and rise, unless your government destroys the racket and - oh, beware of the devil - controls and sets prices.
This is what Medicare does, and this is why Medicare is successful in keeping costs low for people who participate in it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 02:32 PM |
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Corribus said:
JollyJoker said:
The US spends 18% of their GNP for health service, and that percentage will rise and rise and rise, unless your government destroys the racket and - oh, beware of the devil - controls and sets prices.
This is what Medicare does, and this is why Medicare is successful in keeping costs low for people who participate in it.
So why didn't they simply expand Medicare?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 04:07 PM |
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Currently Medicare is limited to the elderly, and it's already a huge portion of the federal budget. I shudder to think how much it would cost to expand it to everyone.
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Eccentric Opinion
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted July 17, 2013 04:23 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Currently Medicare is limited to the elderly, and it's already a huge portion of the federal budget. I shudder to think how much it would cost to expand it to everyone.
Less than Obamacare. 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 08:01 PM |
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Elodin said:
"Our whole society and way of life is now built on the shaky foundation of debt," he writes in response to the NHS cuts. "Our hospitals, schools, armed forces, police, prisons and social services are founded on debt. In truth we have not yet paid for the operations that have already taken place."
of course, and it can't be any other way. money creation is actually creation of a debt, so if you want to have any money in circulation, whatever you use it for, you have to be in debt. that's just wrong to say that public and social services are too expensive. it is literally money that is too expensive.
Elodin said:
As former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher famously — and fittingly — said: The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money to spend. This is a universal truth, more universal than the health care provided in Britain. To trifle with it, ignore it, disrespect it, attempt to repeal it or arrogantly try to bypass it will always lead to trouble.
it's a lie, we are running out of money, because as I said, money is a debt, and we have to pay an interest on it. so the total debt is the total amount of money in circulation (well almost) + the interest. and when you pay it back, the money is actually destroyed. the more you pay the debt, the less money there is, the poorer you are. the only way is to create a new debt to pay the previous one.
so we are obviously doomed to have problems, and it has nothing to do with socialism.
Elodin said:
What have the congressional Democrats who rammed through their health care overhaul been watching over the years as both hard and soft socialist governments have either collapsed, continued to bring misery or become unsustainable? Despite ample evidence that a welfare state cannot thrive, these lawmakers have forced on the country a "reform" that will load Americans with a burden they will not long be able to bear.
then how come poverty diminished in Venezuela? how come Libya was the highest ranked african country in HDI Under kaddhafi? How come in places where an unconditional income was experimented (everyone receiving a sum such as 1000€ per month) the economic situation actually improved?
of course, I have to admit that here, in France, where the word socialism is used to conceal savage capitalism, it is failing quite hard...
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 08:04 PM |
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Money isn't debt, it's a medium of exchange. People value it because it can be traded for goods and services.
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Eccentric Opinion
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 17, 2013 08:06 PM |
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Quote:
As former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher famously — and fittingly — said: The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.
Isn't that pretty much what caused the current global crisis thingy?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 08:19 PM |
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not at all.
mvassilev said:
Money isn't debt, it's a medium of exchange. People value it because it can be traded for goods and services.
it is debt as well. well, a good 90% of the money, if not even more. it seems only bank compulsary reserves (which never get into circulation) aren't debt. of course it is possible that not all countries use that system, but that's what we have in Europe, and it seems to be the same in USA.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 08:22 PM |
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How is money debt? (I want your explanation, not a link to some other source.)
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 08:47 PM |
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baklava said:
Quote:
As former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher famously — and fittingly — said: The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money to spend.
Isn't that pretty much what caused the current global crisis thingy?
There is no global crisis at this point, there's only market manipulation.
The last one started, when ever more money was loaned to build ever more houses, betting on ever increasing prices of said houses, until there were way too many of those and no one bought anymore, prices plummeting. Building companies going broke, not being able to pay their bank loans anymore, banks overtaking houses and increasing interest rates, that leading to owners not able to pay and banks owning houses no one inhabited or being interested in to buy.
Of course this kind of thing may happen with EVERYTHING, and something like that, albeit not as brutally due to the personal consequences for common people has been happening with the resource market.
Common phenomenon: betting on bull market, LOANING MONEY to buy(produce) and sell with a profit - until it switches to bear.
Now, there ARE some players big enough to manipulate things...
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 09:09 PM |
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pretty much what JJ said.
Mvass : when you take a loan, it is a debt. well, when you take a loan you don't actually borrow money from anyone. instead new money is created, and your account is credited with it. (also, on your account, it isn't your money, it is a debt the bank owes you) the monetary mass depends on people taking loans and paying them back. if people take a lot of loans, the monetary mass increases, and it is likely to create growth. if people are afraid to take loans and prefer to pay back their debts (like now) the monetary mass diminishes, and it is likely to lead to recession.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 09:54 PM |
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When you take out a loan, the bank gives you money from its reserves. What you may be thinking of is fractional reserve banking, which is when banks only keep part of their depositors deposits and lend out the rest, hoping that the depositors don't try to all withdraw their money at once. That money can be deposited in another bank, where it can be lent out again, and so on. That doesn't mean money is debt.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2013 10:22 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 22:23, 17 Jul 2013.
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mvassilev said:
When you take out a loan, the bank gives you money from its reserves.
a lot of sources say it isn't the case. the money from bank reserves can only move from bank to bank. it never gets outside the bank system.
mvassilev said:
What you may be thinking of is fractional reserve banking, which is when banks only keep part of their depositors deposits and lend out the rest, hoping that the depositors don't try to all withdraw their money at once. That money can be deposited in another bank, where it can be lent out again, and so on.
the fractional reserve is all the bank has in reserve. it can't be lended. it represents about 10% of the monetary mass, the rest is debt. the bank can create an amount of money (debt), through loans, roughly equal to 10 times their reserve (fractionnal reserve). that's why they fear a bank rush, because they don't have enough in reserve to pay the debts of everyone. (as I said, the "money" on your account is actually a debt the bank owes you)
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 18, 2013 12:53 AM |
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mvassilev said:
Currently Medicare is limited to the elderly, and it's already a huge portion of the federal budget. I shudder to think how much it would cost to expand it to everyone.
If it reduces the cost the nation is collectively paying for healthcare through artificially inflated prices for services, the effective cost may not be as much as you think. At the least, I would be supportive of maximum prices for services being set through legislation - as they are now in Medicare - or some other form of accountability for an essentially unregulated industry, in which customer participation is not strictly voluntary.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted September 21, 2013 05:51 PM |
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I'd like an update on how the healthcare situation is in the states please. I'm rather invested in seeing if this will help against the unbalanced society the people of USA lives in.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 21, 2013 05:55 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:57, 21 Sep 2013.
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Dude, why are you ressurrecting every OSM thread ever?
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted September 21, 2013 06:57 PM |
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I'd really like to know about health care, because my country uses it as well, and so does the US now. If you think some of my posts are unwarranted, please point me to them, and I'll remove them if no one has answered. No bad intentions here. 
Be Well
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Living time backwards
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 21, 2013 07:00 PM |
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Well, it's not the quality but rather the quantity of them that is unusual. But whatever...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 30, 2016 02:41 PM |
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Obamacare enrollees are sicker and cost more than employer-sponsored enrollees.
Is anyone really surprised?
Based purely on numbers, either the ACA will need to be heavily revised, or healthcare costs for everyone will continue to rise - while at the same time providing less coverage. How did all the idiots in Congress not see this coming?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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This thread is pages long: 
