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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: free healthcare
Thread: free healthcare This thread is 21 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 17 18 19 20 21 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 26, 2009 09:26 PM

Quote:
I'm healthy and therefore I'm forced to pay more to the health care system than I use.
You don't pay more, you just don't receive as more.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 26, 2009 09:27 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 21:27, 26 Dec 2009.

No, what I meant was that I'd pay more than I'd use.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 26, 2009 09:29 PM

Quote:
No, what I meant was that I'd pay more than I'd use.
In my viewpoint it's not your money who is taxed, it's your income.
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angelito
angelito


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posted December 26, 2009 09:32 PM

Quote:
No, what I meant was that I'd pay more than I'd use.
"I", "Me", "Mine".....

You exactly represent the kind of american citizen like he is seen by people of other countries.

Forgive me if you feel insulted, but I think you've got pretty poor attitudes...
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 26, 2009 10:26 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 22:28, 26 Dec 2009.

Death:
What's the difference? (And it's not just income - it's spending [sales tax], property [property tax], etc.)

Angelito:
I don't feel insulted, but I think I have pretty good attitudes. I know better than anyone else what's good for me - so I'd rather care for myself than have others care for me, and me care for them.

(And by "I" I mean the rhetorical "I", not me specifically. You could replace "I" with "some people". )
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 26, 2009 11:34 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 23:35, 26 Dec 2009.

Quote:
What's the difference?
like I said, the difference is that you don't get punished, you simply receive less. What about handicapped people who were born that way? I mean, surely, even currently the government provides support for them (right?), but by your logic, that is equal to punishing the healthy ones.
Quote:
(And it's not just income - it's spending [sales tax], property [property tax], etc.)
yeah but that doesn't mean I'm for all of them, in fact, this was only in response to the punish analogy you used, otherwise the method of taxation doesn't matter (healthcare isn't the only taxes are used for anyway).
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 26, 2009 11:53 PM

Quote:
the difference is that you don't get punished, you simply receive less.
The end result is the same - some people would pay more than they get. How's that fair? (An interesting side note: when that happens in the market, people cry fraud. But when the government does it, it's all right - according to socialists.)

Quote:
I mean, surely, even currently the government provides support for them (right?), but by your logic, that is equal to punishing the healthy ones.
It is punishing the healthy ones, but it may still have its benefits. That is, if people are poor, they're more likely to turn to crime, and so it may be beneficial to give them some kind of handouts. The trade-off between that and dependency/incentive distortion/etc is difficult to manage - but a certain level and distribution of welfare may be beneficial to everyone, not just the recipients.

Quote:
healthcare isn't the only taxes are used for anyway
Yeah, but with health care, it's relatively easy to see how much you're paying and how much you're getting, whereas with some other things (like education or defence) it's not.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 27, 2009 12:01 AM
Edited by TheDeath at 00:03, 27 Dec 2009.

Quote:
The end result is the same - some people would pay more than they get. How's that fair?
You can't pay what you don't have. But this drifts yet again into one of those socialism/capitalism threads but I've said countless times already. You, in comparison to the people with weak immune system, don't deserve anything more. You don't deserve more money simply because you had more opportunities -- the state doesn't take it, it simply doesn't let you receive as much.

I mean if you want to interact with the society in which that weaker person also exists, you should seriously stop with this individualistic approach of "I deserve my money!" since that money comes from the interaction you did -- I don't think there's any chance you can get stuff with money in the wild, or even money itself. If you want to be individualistic, no one's stopping you to live on an isolated island or even in society but with no interaction/contact (at least, not me that is, I'm not sure if others want to stop you).

To put it bluntly, when you are saying that you have money, that money is part of society and comes from society... as much as you think you are entitled to it, it doesn't come from you.

Quote:
It is punishing the healthy ones, but it may still have its benefits. That is, if people are poor, they're more likely to turn to crime, and so it may be beneficial to give them some kind of handouts.
Handicapped people committing crimes? For what? Stealing a wheelchair? Stealing someone else's eyes or ears?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 27, 2009 12:21 AM

In a truly capitalistic society, it is because someone gave it to them - whether through charity, parental responsibility (of course, it's not necessarily money - could be stuff, etc.), or exchange. Most of it comes from exchange. And here you're generalising too much - you're saying society "gives" me stuff so I should give back as well. But that's not quite true. Society doesn't give me stuff; individuals sell me stuff for which I pay money - so the people responsible for me having what I have are already paid back for it (unless they just gave it away voluntarily, in which case I am not obligated to give them anything in return, of course).

And it's not a question of "deserve". It's a question of what people are willing to exchange. If some people are born unlucky, we can try to remedy that, of course, but there's a limit to how much we can do that before it starts hurting others excessively.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 27, 2009 12:29 AM

I didn't say you should give back, I said you should play by the rules. And those individuals who give you stuff are also part of society and using society themselves -- I'm pretty sure no money is an individual's design...
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Binabik
Binabik


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posted December 27, 2009 12:43 AM

Quote:
"I", "Me", "Mine".....

You exactly represent the kind of american citizen like he is seen by people of other countries.

Forgive me if you feel insulted, but I think you've got pretty poor attitudes...


Yes, Americans are highly individualistic. And that's a good thing not a bad thing. No, what you said is not an insult, it's a compliment. It's not a bad attitude, it's a good attitude.

If someone wants to let their overzealous government take away their individual rights and freedoms, and tell them what to do and how to run their lives, then THAT is a poor attitude.

The bottom line is that it's none of the government's damn business if I have insurance or not. Whoops, I used the evil "I" word again. OK, it's none of the government's damn business if anyone else has insurance either.

That's not the role of the government. For the government to MANDATE that I buy insurance is a violation of individual liberty to the extreme. And I refuse to to it. The government can go to hell!

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 27, 2009 12:52 AM

Death:
Who said I'm not playing by the rules?
And your view of society is wrong. It's not an amorphous entity - it's a collection of individuals doing stuff. So society can't really "give" me anything (although it's sometimes a useful abstraction) - only individuals can. And they're using... other individuals. Not society.

Binabik:
Quote:
The government can go to hell!
How can hell go to hell?
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Binabik
Binabik


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posted December 27, 2009 12:54 AM

Good point. The government is already hell.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 27, 2009 12:57 AM

Cool, do you have a gun? I'm thinking of settling in your house. It's not the government's business to tell me where to settle or not, or where I can go or not. I mean, why punish me, because I am strong enough to kick your ass?

(this was an example of course, you get the idea)
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 27, 2009 01:09 AM

Yeah, I do have a gun. So you'd better watch out.

Quote:
I mean, why punish me, because I am strong enough to kick your ass?
Because you're aggressing against me?
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 27, 2009 01:31 AM

Quote:
Because you're aggressing against me?
Technically I'm not, since I settle in your home, I don't have anything with you. You're aggressing against me when you come and demand me to go away.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 27, 2009 02:16 AM

You're trespassing on my property, which is an act of aggression.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 27, 2009 02:16 AM

Quote:
You're trespassing on my property, which is an act of aggression.
Says who? The government? The law?
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted December 27, 2009 02:28 AM

And me.
But it's pretty obvious that you're aggressing.
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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


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posted December 27, 2009 02:34 AM

Quote:
You exactly represent the kind of american citizen like he is seen by people of other countries.


What annnoys me here is the implication that such a selfish attitude doesn't exist in other places.  Look for example at the portrayal of Israeli people in the movie You don't mess with the Zohan...similar yes?

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