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baklava
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posted December 25, 2009 12:25 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:37, 25 Dec 2009.
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@MVass
There are reasons why Iceland, Norway, Ireland and others were elected the most desirable places to live, and the USA is way down on the list.
@Corribus
It's certainly less about money than "private enterprise", if conducted right. The simple fact that, theoretically, people without cash could go to the doctor is a clear sign of this, methinks.
Mind you, I really couldn't be much less interested in American healthcare, it's just that I don't get all the... phobia.
EDIT
Then again you can't trust anything Europeans tell you because they'd all like to see your children die of disease, hunger, communism and bestial rape and then go "Now, old chaps, about those taxes you owe her Royal Majesty..."
____________
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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phoenixreborn
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posted December 25, 2009 02:50 PM |
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Quote:
I reject the idea of "needs", as it's very subjective. A society as prosperous as that in the US is successful. Period.
You can't come up with a list of basics that should be covered? Try going without food and water or being indoors for a week.
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mvassilev
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posted December 25, 2009 03:24 PM |
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Binabik:
I understand that preventative care is important, but I don't think insurance should cover it. On the contrary - if people are held more responsible for their future health, then it makes more sense for them to have to take their preventative care into their own hands - not make the insurance company pay for it.
PR:
I don't deny that there are some things necessary for survival. I just don't think providing people with a minimal amount of them should be a primary goal of policymaking.
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phoenixreborn
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posted December 25, 2009 03:32 PM |
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Distribution of resources isn't a function of policymaking?
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mvassilev
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posted December 25, 2009 03:34 PM |
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It should only a secondary result, not a primary goal.
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angelito
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posted December 25, 2009 05:11 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 17:12, 25 Dec 2009.
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Quote:
I believe that the best way to achieve efficiency and efficacy in certain necessary parts of society is through private enterprise, and not public, ineffecient, wasteful government-controlled beaurocracy.
But this would only work if the bosses wouldn't be that greedy and selfish. But this just won't happen, because this is the negative part of capitalism: It produces a lot of greedy people. So while I'm with you that the state shouldn't intervine in too many topics, because most things are regulated pretty well by the market, there are things which should be taken care of by the state. And this is education and healthcare. These shouldn't be things which are build on making money.
Quote:
And frankly, I find the all-to-common insinuation that a person who believes such is inherently selfish, evil and/or compassionless to be very insulting. 
If you felt insulted by my post, I apoligize, but it is just the picture most of the americans create of themselves. Not only refering to healthcare, but relalted ot other things aswell. You here things like "I", "Me", "Mine" most often. Everybidy is juts looking for HIS/HER advantage.
I have the strange feeling America is ONE nation only if they get attacked. In common life, everybody is just looking for himself. This may be wrong, but it's the imagination others get when they listen to you (americans).
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mvassilev
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posted December 25, 2009 05:28 PM |
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Capitalism doesn't create greedy people - it just channels their greed to socially useful ends (most of the time).
Quote:
I have the strange feeling America is ONE nation only if they get attacked. In common life, everybody is just looking for himself.
This isn't quite true, but even if it was, is there anything wrong with that?
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phoenixreborn
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posted December 25, 2009 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
I have the strange feeling America is ONE nation only if they get attacked. In common life, everybody is just looking for himself. This may be wrong, but it's the imagination others get when they listen to you (americans).
Huh? No nation is ONE nation in any circumstance. There will always be differing views on contentious issues.
If I take a quick mental poll of my friends professions many are in health care or social services where they are assisting others, and fewer are in big money personal serving jobs (which may also assist others).
On a broader level there are plenty of community events like food drives or events to assist families that have been struck by tragedy. These probably happen in Europe too. 
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angelito
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posted December 25, 2009 06:59 PM |
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Quote:
This isn't quite true, but even if it was, is there anything wrong with that?
This question alone prooves my point.
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phoenixreborn
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posted December 25, 2009 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
This isn't quite true, but even if it was, is there anything wrong with that?
This question alone prooves my point.
In particular about MVass specifically yes. Do you behave any differently in your common life Angelito?
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TheDeath
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posted December 25, 2009 07:25 PM |
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Quote:
What is your ideal health care system, Binabik, or Mvass, or TD or anyone who would care to answer? This thread is missing fine details and that leads to a tremendous amount of misinterpretation. I seem to be misunderstanding blanket generalizations.
My ideal is based on the fact that health is not equal -- a person with strong immune system will not get sick as much as a weak person, consequently in a private health care system he has to work his ass off more to have the same opportunities in life, how is that fair? 
However there are also things where you deliberately provoke health issues yourself. How direct it is, and how ignorant of medical advice, affects this.
Smoking, for instance, is not fatal from a few shots. While going to a check-up you can be informed to stop smoking if it shows signs (which it does unless you're very very resistant)... if you refuse the advice, then sorry you won't be eligible for free health care anymore (regarding smoking).
And just because you are rich it doesn't mean you should be able to "get away" with it because you have cash to burn. It's either equal opportunities and consequences for all, or not.
Quote:
The UK has bad food because it's the US is dragging it down?
UK has bad food because the US brought bad food into it, although I'm not sure what you mean by 'bad' food, do you mean snacks and junk food? 
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Wolfsburg
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posted December 25, 2009 08:36 PM |
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In my humble opinion the current version of the bill is an absolute shame. It got distorted in epic proportions by a couple of corporation guard dogs while the dems and the president haven't had the decency of doing a thing about it. Now after it was transformed into the frankenstein monster it is, even the healthcare corporations have stopped their rants against the bill, while their shares reach record breaking levels. And we all know why...
Believe it or not, call me a traitor if you will, for you are hearing this from a bleeding-heart liberal - at this point even I support the killing of this bill.
So much for a president who said he wouldn't sign a bill with no public option on it. A lier, an uncle Tom to the corporations just like Mr. Ralph Nader had pointed out.
Wolfs
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mvassilev
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posted December 25, 2009 09:11 PM |
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Death:
Quote:
a person with strong immune system will not get sick as much as a weak person, consequently in a private health care system he has to work his ass off more to have the same opportunities in life, how is that fair?
I don't feel guilty for having a relatively strong immune system. How is it fair to punish those who are healthy?
Quote:
UK has bad food because the US brought bad food into it, although I'm not sure what you mean by 'bad' food, do you mean snacks and junk food?
No, junk food may be unhealthy, but at least it tastes good. I'm talking about stuff like this.
Wolf:
Quote:
an uncle Tom
Now that's racist.
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angelito
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posted December 26, 2009 01:38 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This isn't quite true, but even if it was, is there anything wrong with that?
This question alone prooves my point.
In particular about MVass specifically yes. Do you behave any differently in your common life Angelito?
Of course I do. Maybe because I have one thing in my mind: Bad luck could happen to EVERYONE. Even to myself. So I think it is a good thing there is help for everyone, and not only to those who can afford.
Do you really think the whole world will "work" very long if it consisted of egoists only?
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2009 03:56 PM |
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phoenixreborn
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posted December 26, 2009 05:24 PM |
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Wolfsburg
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posted December 26, 2009 08:01 PM |
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Quote:
Wolf:
Quote:
an uncle Tom
Now that's racist.
Again, the race issue here is THE LEAST of the problems. Back then Ralph Nader tried to point out how little difference the expression made, but he too was misunderstood.
What expression do you think I should use instead? "Corporative-wh*re" or "Double-faced sell-out"?
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TheDeath
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posted December 26, 2009 08:06 PM |
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Quote:
I don't feel guilty for having a relatively strong immune system.
You shouldn't.Quote:
How is it fair to punish those who are healthy?
What do you mean by 'punish'? As long as you interact with society you can't expect to do what you want... even capitalism acknowledges property, which is one such thing.
Of course, if you opt for no interaction with society at all (but then how do you have this computer? ), you should be free to do so.
Because a good society should provide equal opportunities for everyone.
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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baklava
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posted December 26, 2009 08:31 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 20:39, 26 Dec 2009.
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Quote:
What expression do you think I should use instead? "Corporative-wh*re" or "Double-faced sell-out"?
Well, unlike Uncle Tom, neither of those is related to black people, so yeah, that'd be a start.
Let me illustrate - the difference between calling someone a double-faced sellout or an Uncle Tom is the same as calling someone a piece of **** or a Jewish piece of ****. You just can't say "I didn't have his race in mind" after something like that.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
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posted December 26, 2009 09:21 PM |
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PR:
As I'm sure Death (and others) can attest to, I don't think that helping others means you're not pursuing your own self-interest. "Pursuing your self-interest" doesn't mean trying to earn as much money as possible as quickly as possible and then sitting on it - it means doing what makes you happy/gives you pleasure. If that's what he likes to do, then that's great - there's nothing wrong with kindness and generosity. In fact, it's good! But it's one thing to be kind and giving and another to be altruistic.
Death:
Quote:
What do you mean by 'punish'?
I'm healthy and therefore I'm forced to pay more to the health care system than I use.
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