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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate
Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:56 AM

For the record I would also benefit from this. But my own benefit is entirely irrelevant. Most Americans were against this, both conservatives and liberals. You people from other countries just assume that because something is called "universal healthcare" that it's automatically good. Well it's not.

Quote:
Truly, this says alot about the american way.


I'm not sure how you mean that, but watch and learn how NOT to do things.

I find it completely inconceivable that you Europeans voluntarily give up your freedoms to your governments. And even worse, I can't possibly understand how you can give up your nations sovereignty to the EU. You should be fighting to the death to prevent that.

Yes, look at the US and see your future. Look to the US to see your loss of freedom and sovereignty. Look to the US to see what happens when you decentralize your government and hand control over to others. The larger and more decentralized the government, the further it is from the people. You become nothing. How can you let that happen?

Do you people just give up your freedoms without a fight? Is there nothing you feel strongly enough about to give your live?

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted March 22, 2010 10:00 AM
Edited by baklava at 10:01, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

*Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.

*An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.

*The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions

*As per the ancient Mayan calendar, Binabik starts shooting
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 10:21 AM

Quote:
For the record I would also benefit from this. But my own benefit is entirely irrelevant. Most Americans were against this, both conservatives and liberals. You people from other countries just assume that because something is called "universal healthcare" that it's automatically good. Well it's not.

Quote:
Truly, this says alot about the american way.


I'm not sure how you mean that, but watch and learn how NOT to do things.

I find it completely inconceivable that you Europeans voluntarily give up your freedoms to your governments. And even worse, I can't possibly understand how you can give up your nations sovereignty to the EU. You should be fighting to the death to prevent that.

Yes, look at the US and see your future. Look to the US to see your loss of freedom and sovereignty. Look to the US to see what happens when you decentralize your government and hand control over to others. The larger and more decentralized the government, the further it is from the people. You become nothing. How can you let that happen?

Do you people just give up your freedoms without a fight? Is there nothing you feel strongly enough about to give your live?


I wonder, what "freedoms" you are talking about? What souvereignty? What control? Economy is what counts, isn't it? And when did we last control the money and the means of production? 10000 years ago?
And for the underlined stuff... You want to give your life for some silly idea of freedom from a central government? Are you kidding?

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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 22, 2010 10:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Truly, this says alot about the american way.


I'm not sure how you mean that, but watch and learn how NOT to do things.

I find it completely inconceivable that you Europeans voluntarily give up your freedoms to your governments. And even worse, I can't possibly understand how you can give up your nations sovereignty to the EU. You should be fighting to the death to prevent that.

Yes, look at the US and see your future. Look to the US to see your loss of freedom and sovereignty. Look to the US to see what happens when you decentralize your government and hand control over to others. The larger and more decentralized the government, the further it is from the people. You become nothing. How can you let that happen?

Do you people just give up your freedoms without a fight? Is there nothing you feel strongly enough about to give your live?



nice rhetoric, Binabik.

you raise a fair point. whilst the government has alot of say in how the country in how the countries run, that's it's bleeding job! we have just the same freedom as you do, except whilst you may see you're government as a dangerous organisation that's impeaching freedoms left right and centre, our government is organised around the functioning of the whole. it provides the bear minimum, providing a safety net for everyone, universal education, the NHS, housing policies, and so on. it helps the poorest of the poor, and I am more than happy to fork over a bit extra if that means a family with no money can afford schooling or a vital operation.

I would like to point out that european countries, for all our "Lack of freedom", have a higher literacy rate (including countries with 100% literacy rate) and a higher life expectancy (up to five years) in general an the US.

more importantly, We are not nothing. we did not hand all our rights over to the governments. the government is at our whim, it is not some aloof organisation that doesn't care about the common man. our MP's have to listen, by law, to the people if an issue comes up. letters, email's, and now even tweets are able to reach far places, given enough force.

we have never given up our freedoms, and our governments know that to impeach on those will mean they get voted out faster than you can say "whoops".

and just for the record, Yes, there is something I'll be willing to die for, and that's the safety of my loved ones and the progression of human civilisation in terms of knowledge and understanding. but I know that I'm far more useful to those causes alive than as a corpse.
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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
who am I?
posted March 22, 2010 10:31 AM

Quote:
Do you people just give up your freedoms without a fight? Is there nothing you feel strongly enough about to give your live?


You people from America just assume that because something is called "unification" that it's automatically bad. Well it's not.

couldn't resist
Frankly, the only loss of sovereignity we have here are signs on the road saying "This road have been partialy funded by the EU" and that lately we consider snails to be land fish.
We speak our own language, have our own culture and both inside and foreign policy, we can step out with a year notice.
I don't feel strongly enough about calling carrots fruits or snails fish to go out on the streets, ready to give my life for the cause. Maybe I'm just that kind of guy who needs a real push to do something.

On topic though:
Universal healthcare is a horrible idea, I say that with full responsibility after clashing with it head on. Either you ensure to treat everyone with poor effects and horrendous waiting lines or treat only some which fails the purpouse and is unfair either way.

A homless drunk with no medical record was dismissed with only being drunk but later on it turned out that if the hospital bothered to do a tomography they would find some kind of other brain condition he had besides being drunk. But who would go such lengths when people are waiting months if not years for a tomography, right? In the end the hospital was sued, lost the case (LOL) and now if they pick you drunk form a street you get full service right away. And other wait.
I have 2 nurses in my family, in different hospitals and this is just depressing...
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none of my business.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted March 22, 2010 10:41 AM

There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything.  This was done the wrong way.  Pretty much it is "We are going to pass it regardless of what people think." which is the WRONG way.
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Message received.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 22, 2010 01:01 PM

It's easy to be free when you are rich.

Things get complicated when you're poor and - sadly - sick.

Freedom instantly becomes a different concept altogether.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2010 01:03 PM

Here are the KEY reforms of the bill in short:

Cost: $940bn over 10 years; would reduce deficit by $143bn

Coverage: Expanded to 32m currently uninsured Americans

Medicare: Prescription drug coverage gap closed; affected over-65s receive rebate and discount on brand name drugs

Medicaid: Expanded to include families under 65 with gross income of up to 133% of federal poverty level and childless adults

Insurance reforms: Insurers can no longer deny coverage to those with pre-existing conditions

Insurance exchanges: Uninsured and self-employed able to purchase insurance through state-based exchanges

Subsidies: Low-income individuals and families wanting to purchase own health insurance eligible for subsidies

Individual Mandate: Those not covered by Medicaid or Medicare must be insured or face fine

High-cost insurance: Employers offering workers pricier plans subject to tax on excess premium

____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 22, 2010 02:24 PM

Remind me again: who's going to pay for this?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2010 02:36 PM

Quote:
Remind me again: who's going to pay for this?


I think that what it means here is that government should not have a say in healthcare. In which I disagree completely, as I see being able to receive treatment as a human right that should be provided to everyone. Just like education. They are both vital to live a decent human life.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 02:40 PM

Who cares?

http://zfacts.com/p/461.html

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 22, 2010 02:59 PM
Edited by Corribus at 15:01, 22 Mar 2010.

@Minion
Quote:
I think that what it means here is that government should not have a say in healthcare. In which I disagree completely, as I see being able to receive treatment as a human right that should be provided to everyone. Just like education. They are both vital to live a decent human life.

That's not really what I meant, but since you brought it up: Who says that living a decent life is a right?  And for that matter, who says that it's my responsibility to ensure that everyone else lives decent life?  Is it not one's own responsibility to ensure that they, themselves, live a decent life?
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2010 03:24 PM
Edited by Minion at 15:45, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:

That's not really what I meant, but since you brought it up: Who says that living a decent life is a right?  And for that matter, who says that it's my responsibility to ensure that everyone else can live a decent life?  Is it not one's own responsibility to ensure that they, themselves, can live a decent life?


In the universal declaration of human rights for example.

Article 25.

   * (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
   * (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Who says that it is your responsibility? But I take it that you mean why do I have to pay my taxes that are used to ensure the "decent life" of everyone. Because you are part of the community. Maybe we have a different view on a "decent life" and hence I am having trouble responding here. You are not hoping for a "every man for himself"-society are you?
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 03:26 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 15:30, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
would reduce deficit by $143bn
Untrue. There's been some double counting of savings, so it's deficit-neutral at best. Not that deficit-neutrality is a good test for policy at this point.

Also, there is no right to be provided with something - only a right to not have the government interfere in you getting something non-coercively.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Keksimaton
Keksimaton


Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
posted March 22, 2010 03:55 PM

I fail to comprehend the implications of this bill and thus lack opinions on its effects on the American people other than the mvassive whimpering and ire.

Are you guys allergic to communism or something?
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 04:05 PM

The main implication is that people will be forced to buy health insurance.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 22, 2010 04:06 PM

Quote:
Untrue. There's been some double counting of savings, so it's deficit-neutral at best. Not that deficit-neutrality is a good test for policy at this point.


Congressional Budget Office was my source (which is objective and nonpartisan)

What is your source?
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted March 22, 2010 04:14 PM

Quote:
Also, there is no right to be provided with something - only a right to not have the government interfere in you getting something non-coercively.


Yep, and I don't have the right not to be murdered! And those born poor don't have the right to any rights at all! And I just love rasism! (I hope you detected the vast ammounts of angry sarcasm)

You know, the US signed the universal declaration of human rights. That means that the US agrees to it. Learn to live with it, leave the US or do something about it!

My stance: I think that universal health care is great, and should be available for every one, every where. I want to be able to go to the US for a week with out having to get an insurance so that I don't end up having a $250 000 dept because I got hit by a car. I consider myself (I am actually) to be far out on the left, even for europe. How ever, I'm not part of the US. I have no say in what it does to itself.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 04:16 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 16:19, 22 Mar 2010.

Minion:
Here.

Also, CBO calculations assume the path of GDP will be unchanged, but of course that is not the case - GDP will increase more slowly with higher taxes.

Shares:
Quote:
Yep, and I don't have the right not to be murdered!
Murder is quite coercive, and you have the right not to be coerced.

Quote:
And those born poor don't have the right to any rights at all!
They have no right to steal, and they have no right to use the government to steal for them, either.

Quote:
And I just love rasism!
Who said anything about racism?
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Eccentric Opinion

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Keksimaton
Keksimaton


Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
posted March 22, 2010 04:16 PM

How will the proletariat afford buying health insurance? Dude, your worksman's party sucks.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.

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