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| Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted March 22, 2010 06:29 PM |
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Also, you're forgetting that President Obama is a havard law graduate, so when it comes to the constitution, He should really know his stuff. Also, Mvass, Yeah, I'm pretty sure they do, considering that they're the ones who are most familiar with it.
Just like priests know the most about the existence of God, right?  And they may or may not know, but that's irrelevant, because they're not acting like they know. They're part of the government, so naturally they want to expand their power. It's Machiavellian - they don't care if it's right or wrong.
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"Liberty". freedom from poverty and freedom to get good healthcare will help that
No, liberty means you can do whatever you want without coercive interference as long as you do not coerce anyone.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 22, 2010 06:42 PM |
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Can't say i agree with anyone here.
While I think that a universal health care is a good thing, I disagree with the private insurance principle. Health Care should be nationalized - like in Britain and Cuba. In a capitalist system, this doesn't mean that there couldn't be health institutions PRIVATELY owned and run (for the rich), but a universal health care system founded on insurances with private insurance companies is just another gold crapping donkey for insurances, pharma corps, and the health industry in general.
For the individual responsibility of everyone for their health, well. Life style does play a role, of course, but only a minor one. Apart from the fact that a very big part of"Life Style" and "health hazards" are soxiety based (look at life in the big city, working in some insurance office, for example), genetic disposition and your general happiness with life plays a role.
The reasons and causal chains of health deficits are manifold - and it's extremely difficult to foresee the cost factor. Myocardial infarction may be deadly - no cost. However, you may get saved as well, wake up again, live further, surviving another number of them, with higher or lower costs.
Now think about someone smoking heavily, dying from a strole or infarction with, say, 67. That person, by living unhealthy SAVES society a lot of money: no health care, no pension.
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vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted March 22, 2010 06:47 PM |
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Edited by vlaad at 18:49, 22 Mar 2010.
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I was wondering where all that money is actually going. A friend of mine just had a surgery for appendicitis. Her insurance covered 80%, but she still owes the hospital 8,000 dollars. That's six months' worth of her PhD stipend.
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Corribus
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The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 22, 2010 06:52 PM |
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@JJ
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Life style does play a role, of course, but only a minor one.
Ah. So, you would assert that life-style (read: diet) plays only a minor role in the ~30% obesity rate here (>60% obese/overweight) in the US? Keep in mind that in 1980, the obesity rate was 15% (source). That's a pretty quick increase for something to be mostly genetic.
Or are you arguing that obesity has very little to do with healthcare costs, hmmm?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted March 22, 2010 06:52 PM |
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No, liberty means you can do whatever you want without coercive interference as long as you do not coerce anyone.
But people don't implement that on their own. Doesn't the constitution say that every one should be born alike? They aren't born with the same rights, options etc if they are born in a poor/rich family.
Let's say we have to persons. A and B. A's a rich guy, his did have a big company and they basicly live in a mansion. Person B live in a small apartment in the slum district. They are both in high school, but person B also got a job to pay his rent, food, bills, insuranse and is also trying to save enough cash to get through collage. His dad left his mom when she got pregnant and she couldn't afford the abortion.
A can then spend 8 h/day doing home work, studying and have some free time, then 8h/day sleeping and perform great 8h/day at school
B spends 8h/day at his work, sleep 6h/day and performs badly at school, not because he's stupid, but because he's exhausted and can't get the time to study.
Don't give me that bull snow that poor and rich have the same options and that a poor guy can just as easy get an education! That's deeply descriminating and is, by the letter, against the constitution!
If freedom is getting the chance to do whatever you want, then shouldn't every one get to be free?!
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 22, 2010 06:57 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:58, 22 Mar 2010.
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@Shares
One thing I don't understand is the assertion that everyone should have the same opportunities as everyone else. It's impossible in any case. As much as it pains me to admit, I will never have the same opportunities as Brad Pitt. Ah, I know! Perhaps Congress should enact a bill that makes taxpayers provides plastic surgery for everyone who isn't as handsome as Brad Pitt. That way, we all have the same chance of landing a Hollywood career or lucrative contract with GQ. Score.
EDIT: Oh right, and following the trend set in this healthcare bill, if I opt out of the Pitt surgery, I get fined.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted March 22, 2010 07:02 PM |
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No, not every one can get the same oppurtunities, but they should, shouldn't they? Then we ought to do whatever we can to make that happen!
Besides, ensuring that every one looks good is not the same as giving every one a shot at getting an education. I know that if I lived in the US, I wouldn't be able to get to go to collage, not because I don't work hard. Not because I'm stupid or got bad grades! But because my friggin parents had poor parents! What kind of society would do that?!(rethorical!)
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 22, 2010 07:10 PM |
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Most people do not understand that even in socialist nations, not everybody is equal. The people running the nations STILL live better lives then the average person on the street. In other words, there has never been a nation where EVERYBODY is equal, and there may never be. Yes, it is a sad fact that I will never have the same opportunities as somebody who was born to a family of billionaires. I still prefer to not have all my decisions made for me.
Again, I love the idea of universal health care. I have NASH (which lead to Diabetes) and am considered uninsurable. I can't afford to go to the doctor either, so pretty much I am SOL. So universal health care would do nothing but HELP me. I just hate how it was done..
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted March 22, 2010 07:17 PM |
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I must admit that I honestly cannot understand how anybody can be against something that offers insurance to so many people in need. How you can want for anybody that they stand without the ability to get medical aid in bad times because they loose their job or whatever simply is beyond me - but I guess that's because I come from a country where everybody are entitled to medical help for FREE - and I'm certainly glad I do, should I ever come in need of it!
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What will happen now?
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Corribus
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posted March 22, 2010 07:26 PM |
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@shares
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No, not every one can get the same oppurtunities, but they should, shouldn't they?
Depends on what you mean by "should".
If you mean: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if..." Then yes, they should.
If you mean: "We should strive to get as close as possible to..." Then no, they shouldn't.
You furthermore ask:
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Then we ought to do whatever we can to make that happen!
I'm sure you've heard the phrase about ends not justifying the means, so rather than giving you a lengthy argument, I'll just leave you with this:
If we put all the poor, crippled, ugly and unintelligent people in a sealed chamber and flooded it with sarin gas, that would be "doing whatever we can to make that happen", would it not? If all the poor were dead, everyone left over would be equal and happy, right? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't condone that method of ensuring equality, and yet you've said we should do whatever we have to in order to make people equal. Perhaps you can tell us all what is the boundary line between what methods of "forcible equality" are morally acceptible and within the mandate of government and what methods are not?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Keksimaton
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Talk to the hand
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posted March 22, 2010 07:27 PM |
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It's about a fundamental difference in sense of justice.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 22, 2010 07:33 PM |
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I just found a t-shirt for you.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted March 22, 2010 07:35 PM |
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You don't have the right to be provided with anything.
... Once you have reached legal independance, right?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 22, 2010 07:41 PM |
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I just found a t-shirt for you.
I think i spotted an insult, guys get him!
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Keksimaton
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Talk to the hand
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posted March 22, 2010 07:43 PM |
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Vague is not an insult. It's a word of sorts.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted March 22, 2010 07:45 PM |
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If you can't pay, then you don't get it. It's quite simple. You don't have the right to be provided with anything.
I actually used to think liberty was a good thing before I met you guys
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted March 22, 2010 07:45 PM |
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Corribus wrote:
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It's impossible in any case.[...] Perhaps Congress should enact a bill that makes taxpayers provides plastic surgery for everyone who isn't as handsome as Brad Pitt.
I guess you were probably making a joke/fun there, but I honestly think, that if there are enough ressources to make such a system work, without loosing stuff of higher priority, then it should be an option for everyone. 
I don't think it is impossible for everyone to get the same opportunities, with the exceptions of opportunites caused by other people, like getting a certain job, etc. Though I do realise that we probably aren't anywhere near the technology and ressources to be able to make such a society work.
Shares wrote:
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No, not every one can get the same oppurtunities, but they should, shouldn't they? Then we ought to do whatever we can to make that happen!
I agree, that's the principle I think all societies/states should live by, however also with some priority on certain things before others, just like you write here:
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Besides, ensuring that every one looks good is not the same as giving every one a shot at getting an education.
I think that is, education should be a much higher priority.
((But one should still not limit others freedom in doing so, in my opinion, like Mvass write it in the quote just below))
Mvass wrote:
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No, liberty means you can do whatever you want without coercive interference as long as you do not coerce anyone.
I have the impression this might come off the wrong way, but it should include the freedom not to also, like the freedom of not to die, the freedom of not to be abused, etc.
I understand you can't force anyone to help even if they've the option to do it, I also think that'd be wrong, but at least, I don't think we should let the matter of money be what limits such freedom.
It doesn't mean I don't agree with your statement, because I do, I just think we understand it a bit differently.
Edit: Alci wrote:
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but I guess that's because I come from a country where everybody are entitled to medical help for FREE - and I'm certainly glad I do, should I ever come in need of it!
I think you're completely right, we're probably all more or less biased by the way we have been used to live. Looking in the thread, it seems somewhat like people who come from countries with health care already say it is a good idea, and people who doesn't says it isn't. That of course doesn't really tell if it is a good thing or isn't, I suppose.
My greatest concern is though, I am not certain if this model is the same as the danish, and I do also have my problems with the current danish model, not saying that there isn't better ways (getting the same result for less ressources (money in this case) invested).
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted March 22, 2010 08:00 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 20:06, 22 Mar 2010.
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@Corribus: So you mean that just because I'm trying to reach unreachable goals, I should just quit?! No! We should try to reach as long as we can!
And no, killing people wouldn't really provide those people any rights, right? The first point was that every one should have equal(as equal as possible) rights, no matter where, and by whom, they were born. Killing people of ensures that that will not happen.
What you do; Set up a standard: Work towards that standard.
Then: Set a slightly higher standard. Work toward the standard.
For example: Black people shouldn't be slaves for the white. Work towards that.
Black and white should be equal by law (no apartheid and such). Work towards that.
Black and white should not be discriminated by colour. Work towards that.
If you then make the black people slaves to ensure they aren't discriminated, then you've kinda missed the point.
Right, and there's also abother thing that's kinda controversal right now. Every one should have equal rights(men, women, black, white etc.), but they should be judged by capacity (strength, courage, intelligence, skill etc.). People should have equal rights, not be equal. There's a line there somewhere, but it's hard to see.
For example: Men and women should have equal rights. A man and woman with the same job(at the same company), the same experience and skill should have the same salary, right? How ever, a man and a woman that does NOT have the same skill and experience shouldn't.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 22, 2010 08:19 PM |
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Or are you arguing that obesity has very little to do with healthcare costs, hmmm?
Exactly.
Economically spoken, in the long run it's best, if people die immediately after the end of their work life - they don't cash in in pensions. If someone is healthier and lives longer, that someone uses more pension. For the healtcare costs, only chronical diseases are interesting, because they need constant treament. Children with lifelong neurodermitis or asthma or other allergic diseases - obese or not - will cost plenty. Cancer treatment. This stuff.
Bad health doesn't mean high costs.
See, let's say you often have a headache. You can simply say, what the hell, feed the local drugstore and use up a pack of Aspirin or Paracetamol or something each week. You can do so 10 years, until it gets excrutiating, visit a doctor, undergo some examinations and learn that you have an inoperable brain cancer pressing on your brain matter you will die of within one year - and so so.
Or you can go immediately to a doctor who finds nothing, sends you to a coupole of specialists who still don't find anything, until you land at a shrink and a prescription for better drugs, until three years later you repeat the exams and they find something, a small brain cancer, inoperable, but still maybe stoppable with radiation and stuff, and after 12 years of constant treatment you die...
Operations are much more difficult on obese people, by the way.
The bottom line is this, Corribus:
You need to prove that obese people cost society more than non-obese people. Not, that their health tends to be worse.
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Corribus
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posted March 22, 2010 08:29 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 20:35, 22 Mar 2010.
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For one thing, most pensions I'm familiar with are transferrable to next of kin. And even then pensions are now the exception and not the norm. Not really much of an argument.
For another, you haven't convinced me that obesity doesn't increase health-care costs. Obesity is just as much a chronic condition as any other, and besides, obesity and diabetes are very much linked.
To wit:
I googled "Cost of Obesity in America" and these are the first ten results.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2009-11-17-future-obesity-costs_N.htm
http://www.obesityrates.net/category/obesity-in-america/
http://edrecovery.com/?tag=cost-of-obesity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States (see section on costs)
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1917458,00.html
http://healthyamericans.org/reports/obesity2009/Obesity2009Report.pdf
http://www.executivehm.com/news/cost-of-obesity-in-the-united-states/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/27/health/main5190909.shtml
http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/the-cost-of-obesity---147-billion-annually.aspx?googleid=267838
http://www.examiner.com/x-17992-Childhood-Obesity-Examiner~y2009m10d18-Americas-cost-of-obesity
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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