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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate
Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 08:32 PM

Shares:
Poor people and rich people have the same rights. There is no law that says only rich people can buy certain things, only rich people can vote, etc. Now, the facts are that rich people can afford more, but that's a different sort of thing.

Quote:
His dad left his mom when she got pregnant and she couldn't afford the abortion.
She shouldn't have gotten pregnant, then, right?

And there are programmes available to help this hypothetical poor person with their education. Do you know how many scholarships there are available? So there really is no excuse.

Also, there's a difference between equal rights and equal outcomes. Yes, whites and blacks, men and women, etc. should all be equal before the law. But they should all be allowed to succeed and fail on their own merits, not by plundering from others.

Ohforf:
Quote:
I have the impression this might come off the wrong way, but it should include the freedom not to also, like the freedom of not to die, the freedom of not to be abused, etc.
Yes, it comes out that way. No one is allowed to coerce anyone, as that is a violation of freedom.
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 22, 2010 08:44 PM

Quote:
Quote:
If you can't pay, then you don't get it. It's quite simple. You don't have the right to be provided with anything.

I actually used to think liberty was a good thing before I met you guys

captain America's going to need a facelift.
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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted March 22, 2010 08:48 PM

Quote:
Poor people and rich people have the same rights. There is no law that says only rich people can buy certain things, only rich people can vote, etc. Now, the facts are that rich people can afford more, but that's a different sort of thing.


That's true in one way. How ever, how many people get scholarships? The top 10 000 students in that state, or something like that I guess. That means that you have to be extraordinary as poor to get into collage, and just average as a rich kid. Same rights on the paper, not in theory and not in practice.
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted March 22, 2010 08:50 PM
Edited by Vlaad at 21:02, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
I was wondering where all that money is actually going. A friend of mine just had a surgery for appendicitis. Her insurance covered 80%, but she still owes the hospital 8,000 dollars. That's six months' worth of her PhD stipend.
I hate to quote myself but since nobody bothered to reply, I did a quick Google search for appendectomy in the US. Here is a typical post:

"The hospital [Denver, Colorado] provided me with a 'unitemized' bill for a emergency laproscopic appendectamy (arrived at 8:00 am and had surgery at 4:30 pm (doctor wasn't available until then) and was recovered and able to leave the next day at 11:00 am, so about 27 hours.

hospital bill: $21,987.28
pathology bill (blood testing): $96.00
radiology bill (catscan, I think): $376.00
anesthesiologist: 58 minutes - $920.00/ emergency condition $184.00 = $1104.00
surgeon: initial care - $141.00 / laproscopic appendectomy - $1101.00, minus -$44.00 approved write off/-$344.00 total: $854.00

My total bill is $24,417.28 [...]"

So why 20+ grand for a day (or two) in the bed?


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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 22, 2010 08:51 PM
Edited by ohforfsake at 20:53, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
Shares:
Poor people and rich people have the same rights. There is no law that says only rich people can buy certain things, only rich people can vote, etc. Now, the facts are that rich people can afford more, but that's a different sort of thing.


I don't think that's where the problem lies, I think the problem lies in that certain things that, in my opinion, should be a right, is money dependent and therefore creates a problem, as it is not available for everyone.

Quote:
But they should all be allowed to succeed and fail on their own merits, not by plundering from others.

But if they fail, no matter how many times they fail, there should always be some security net there, ready to catch them.

Quote:
Yes, it comes out that way. No one is allowed to coerce anyone, as that is a violation of freedom.


I completely agree with the statement, what I just want to make clear is that I believe it is as much a limit of a persons freedom to be hit by a rock, as it is that another persons hits said person with a rock.

I believe the state should provide protection against both cases, no matter if the rock happened due to random circumstances or it was an intentional attack by another consciouss being.

Edit: Vlaad I'd wish I could give you an answer, but I honestly have no clue what kind of values to expect, nor how to rationalize upon it.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 08:54 PM

Shares:
Nah, that's just because people don't try. If more were to try to get them, more would succeed.

Ohforf:
No, coercion can only come from another person.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 22, 2010 08:55 PM

Quote:
So why 20+ grand for a day (or two) in the bed?

Because the system is completely screwed up.

The last time I was at the ER, they charged us over 200 dollars for saline.  ****ING SALINE!  Are you kidding me?
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 22, 2010 08:57 PM

apartently Rush Limbaugh is going to leave the US over this bill, to costa rica (which, coincidincidecentally, has universal health care.)

any thoughts, or a you confuzzled and confangwangled over my sudden desent into delirious dadaism.
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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted March 22, 2010 08:58 PM

Quote:
Shares:
Nah, that's just because people don't try. If more were to try to get them, more would succeed.


Yeah, that explains why people can work all their lives and still be poor, while some people are born rich. I wish personal assault wasn't against the CoC, or that I had a QP to waste.
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 22, 2010 09:05 PM
Edited by ohforfsake at 21:08, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
Ohforf:
No, coercion can only come from another person.


Okay, not sure if I follow, therefore a thought scenario (sorry if it seems off topic):

Skiing down the mountain, a giant ball of snow comes my way, hits me and somewhat traps me inside of it.

Is my freedom being reduced if:
A) If the snowball was sent by another person.
B) If the snowball is just a random coincidence due to the weather.

And in the case it is a reduce of freedom, it is the job of government to prevent this event and help me out of the snowball, and where it isn't, it is not the job of the government?

My point is that it is the actions the matter, not the intentions behind. It shouldn't matter if the cause is random or not, it's the action that determines if it is a limitation of someones freedom.

One can imagine events where it's impossible to diverge the result of the event independent of the trigger of said event.

So if A->C or B->C, you can't know, however that shouldn't matter, as it is C, the consequence, that's the problem, not A or B that's the trigger.

Shares wrote:
Quote:
I wish personal assault wasn't against the CoC, or that I had a QP to waste.

I don't understand the purpose behind becoming emotional, as it doesn't make your arguments seem more valid in my opinion.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:08 PM

Quote:
Is my freedom being reduced if:
A) If the snowball was sent by another person.
Yes.
Quote:
B) If the snowball is just a random coincidence due to the weather.
No.
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 22, 2010 09:09 PM
Edited by ohforfsake at 21:10, 22 Mar 2010.

Okay, then I think we disagree on the definition of freedom in that case.

Edit: In my opinion, freedom depends on the person in question, not the reason behind different actions. I like the way Shares defined it earlier in this thread, btw.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:15 PM

Shares:
And so, like a typical left-winger, you reveal your desire for violence.
Poor people are mostly poor because of their choices. It's not too difficult to make a decent amount of money.
1. Don't slack off at school. You have free textbooks. Study them.
2. Don't waste your time partying, don't do drugs, and don't have kids early.
3. Get scholarships and go to college.
4. Don't major in something useless like Art History.
5. Graduate and get a job.
6. Money!
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted March 22, 2010 09:21 PM
Edited by Vlaad at 21:52, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
Quote:
So why 20+ grand for a day (or two) in the bed?

Because the system is completely screwed up.

The last time I was at the ER, they charged us over 200 dollars for saline.  ****ING SALINE!  Are you kidding me?
I looked it up:

"[The abovementioned hospital] supports Doctors Care, a program that provides health care to low-income, uninsured Coloradans. They also donate medications, supplies and staff time to overseas medical missions. The hospital invests $40 million a year in charity care and underwriting medical care for the uninsured."

Oh the irony.

Could you please eleborate on "the system is completely screwed up"? For example, who benefited from the 200 dollars saline?
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veco
veco


Legendary Hero
who am I?
posted March 22, 2010 09:22 PM

Quote:
And so, like a typical left-winger, you reveal your desire for violence.

LOL

mvass, it's time to get out of your cellar
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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 22, 2010 09:26 PM

I thought pillars belonged in cellars
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DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted March 22, 2010 09:28 PM

1. Don't slack off at school. You have free textbooks. Study them.
2. Don't waste your time partying, don't do drugs, and don't have kids early.
3. Get scholarships and go to college.
4. Don't major in something useless like Art History.
5. Graduate and get a job.
6. ???
7. PROFIT!
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:28 PM

Quote:

For another, you haven't convinced me that obesity doesn't increase health-care costs.  Obesity is just as much a chronic condition as any other, and besides, obesity and diabetes are very much linked.

To wit:

I googled "Cost of Obesity in America" and these are the first ten results.  

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2009-11-17-future-obesity-costs_N.htm



Corribus, you are an intelligent person. I googled your first link, and this is what I found to quote:

Quote:
An obese person will have an average of $8,315 in medical bills a year in 2018 compared with $5,855 for an adult at a healthy weight. That's a difference of $2,460.
Assuming that is right, isn't that only half the information? How do they get the average I wonder?
Seriously, sick is sick, it doesn't matter much how old you are, when you become sick. If you are obese you'll get sick SOONER, because obesity is a health hazard. Consequently you'll die sooner as well.
Secondly, you could ask yourself as well, what McD's and BK's is costing society - the money people bring there to eat the junk - and so on, because that is money society "loses" as much as the money spend for Health Care. It is money people working in that business EARN and SPEND.
Cynically spoken, it doesn't matter a iota whether people spend their money on health, health care, Fod for the World or computer games - others are living off it.

Another point is, that common diseases will motivate to  more research. Case in point:

http://www.glucometrix.de/eng/index.php

The bottom line is - it's just polemics.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 22, 2010 09:31 PM

Quote:
Shares:
And so, like a typical left-winger, you reveal your desire for violence.
Poor people are mostly poor because of their choices. It's not too difficult to make a decent amount of money.
1. Don't slack off at school. You have free textbooks. Study them.
2. Don't waste your time partying, don't do drugs, and don't have kids early.
3. Get scholarships and go to college.
4. Don't major in something useless like Art History.
5. Graduate and get a job.
6. Money!
Lol...what a typical mvass post. Maybe you tell that to all those who lost their hosue due to the big bank guys and their great and responsible action with all the money?

Life is not as easy as you describe it. Otherwise EVERYBODY would win a nobel prize, or EVERYBODY would win a gold medal at olympics.

"Poor people are mostly poor because of their choices" is close to being an insult in my eyes.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 22, 2010 09:33 PM

Jesus mvass.
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