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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate
Thread: Well, the US now has an insurance mandate This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:36 PM

Quote:
Jesus mvass.
I second that.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:36 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 21:36, 22 Mar 2010.

All of you people are complaining about it, but none of you can actually tell me what's wrong with it.

Angelito:
Those people shouldn't have taken loans that they couldn't afford, then.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 09:51 PM

Don't you think it depends a bit on what your parents are, what neighborhood they live in, how they earn or not earn how much money how legal? Whether intelligence is something you are born with or whether early education will make the difference or whether it's a mix: you need intelligence to even have a chance to earn decent money. Otherwise the best you can get is having an outcome - but then, well, ask Mytical.

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted March 22, 2010 09:52 PM
Edited by Elodin at 21:53, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
No, not every one can get the same oppurtunities, but they should, shouldn't they? Then we ought to do whatever we can to make that happen!
Besides, ensuring that every one looks good is not the same as giving every one a shot at getting an education. I know that if I lived in the US, I wouldn't be able to get to go to collage, not because I don't work hard. Not because I'm stupid or got bad grades! But because my friggin parents had poor parents! What kind of society would do that?!(rethorical!)


You can always work and go to college at the same time. I did.

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Shares
Shares


Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
posted March 22, 2010 09:54 PM
Edited by Shares at 22:05, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
1. Don't slack off at school. You have free textbooks. Study them.
2. Don't waste your time partying, don't do drugs, and don't have kids early.
3. Get scholarships and go to college.
4. Don't major in something useless like Art History.
5. Graduate and get a job.
6. Money!


That's how it's supposed to be, isn't it? But it should be hard for any one to that it is not like that. I've said every arguement for now, and you just keep repeating that the people that works hard all their life to buy a refurbished car chose that instead of being wealthy.

Quote:
All of you people are complaining about it, but none of you can actually tell me what's wrong with it.

About you apperently not caring about any one, or why people should be equal?
Quote:
Angelito:
Those people shouldn't have taken loans that they couldn't afford, then.


That kinda removes the point of taking a loan, don't you think? Besides, not every one majors economics so it's hard to predict economic crisises (even when you do major economics).
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 10:11 PM

Appeals to emotion and "that's not how it is" are not counterarguments.

As for the point of taking a loan, you borrow against future income. You don't have the money now, but will have it later. But if you're not going to have it later, then you shouldn't take the loan.
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 22, 2010 10:14 PM

I just want to point out that I am not a debating heavy weight, and I will probably get wrecked to rats**t buy the dangerous dragon of debates that is Mvass. However, I did find something objectionable about this post.

Quote:
Shares:
And so, like a typical left-winger, you reveal your desire for violence.


and like a typical commie, I will help my fellow man.
Quote:

Poor people are mostly poor because of their choices. It's not too difficult to make a decent amount of money.


Actually, most poor people are poor because of their social capital sitaution. they are poor because their family is poor, thus they often drop out of school to support them, in an never ending self destructive poverty cycle.

you very rarely get cases of millionarie daughters working dead-end jobs, or millionaries who came from the streets. for every alan sugar, I can show you 100 others who didn't make any money.
Quote:

1. Don't slack off at school. You have free textbooks. Study them.


often these kids have been brought up not knowing stuff and simply playing. there is a specific age where the child is extremely receptable to outside influences, which is often when the parent spends time with the child, teaching them to talk.
because people with less social income need to work longer hours, they spend less time wtih their children, its a social retardant for the kid.

also, especially in britain, kids from the poorest house holds don't have any preschool education, and often find it hard to catch up. it's not so much slacking off, its just as much early socialisation to the education environment. kids who are substandard at a subject begin to have another negative spiral of "I can't do it, I don't understand, I'm stupid, therefore, I can't do it." preventing kids from entering this negative spiral will prevent drop out rates.
Quote:

2. Don't waste your time partying, don't do drugs, and don't have kids early.


I can't really argue with that. But on the other hand, I spent most of my time partying, and left school with good grades.
Having kids too early, too, I can't argue with. education about controception is vital.
Quote:

3. Get scholarships and go to college.


Do you know how hard it is to get a scholarship?! I've tried. I tried to get a dramatic scholarship, and my god was it hard! I didn't get it, some one else god it, but she worked bloody hard for it, and I commend her for it.
and I would agree, university is a good idea. not only for the educational front, but also for the social aspect. people you know is just as vital for getting a good carreer as things you know.
Quote:

4. Don't major in something useless like Art History.


actually, some "useless degrees" have some very well paid jobs, a sociology degree can lead you to getting a job as a social analysis, politician, PR men and so on, and "doss subjects", like art history, are suprisingly hard.
a Degree's usefullness is all about what career you want to go into. Similarly, it's not just the degree that gets you somewhere. I want to be a writer, so I can't just thrust a drama degree at someone and go "there!" I need a portfolio of work, I need accreditted writer positions, I need to show I can write comedies, tragedy, action, and so on. Likewise, I can't thrust my historian degree at an employer and say "Give me a job!" I need to have shown that I have done other stuff, researched and so on.
again, Universities allow this, often in the form of clubs and societies. I'm in a drama society that does self published work, which is fantastic from the point of view of a writer. Similarly, and this only applies to me, I'm in a uni which is near some castle ruins, and thus provide me with some brilliant first hand experience.
Quote:

5. Graduate and get a job.
6. Money!


Getting a degree and getting a job doesn't go hand in hand. whilst a degree looks more attractive, it doesn't nessecarily mean instant success. experience in the work place is also a factor, how much work experience have you had, what sort of stuff have you worked in, and so on. I know three people who work in a local branch of tescos and have degrees. why, because I see them regularly to get food.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 10:20 PM

Quote:
Actually, most poor people are poor because of their social capital sitaution. they are poor because their family is poor, thus they often drop out of school to support them, in an never ending self destructive poverty cycle.
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the US, people don't drop out to support their family, but because they want an independent source of income with which to buy alcohol and/or drugs, or are just "tired of school".

Quote:
often these kids have been brought up not knowing stuff and simply playing. there is a specific age where the child is extremely receptable to outside influences, which is often when the parent spends time with the child, teaching them to talk.
because people with less social income need to work longer hours, they spend less time wtih their children, its a social retardant for the kid.
While this is true to a certain extent, it's still no excuse. Once you're 14 or so, you should be able to figure out that without an education, you'll just be flipping burgers.

Quote:
Do you know how hard it is to get a scholarship?!
It's harder to get a scholarship if you're rich (but still not impossible). But if you're poor, get FAFSA. And a lot of universities offer additional aid packages.

Quote:
actually, some "useless degrees" have some very well paid jobs
By "useless degree", I meant "degree without job opportunities".

Quote:
Getting a dyegree and getting a job doesn't go hand in hand. whilst a degree looks more attractive, it doesn't nessecarily mean instant success. experience in the work place is also a factor, how much work experience have you had, what sort of stuff have you worked in, and so on.
Yeah, that's true, but you can't dependably make $60k a year and not have at least a four-year degree.
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 22, 2010 10:47 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Actually, most poor people are poor because of their social capital sitaution. they are poor because their family is poor, thus they often drop out of school to support them, in an never ending self destructive poverty cycle.
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the US, people don't drop out to support their family, but because they want an independent source of income with which to buy alcohol and/or drugs, or are just "tired of school".



"Tired of school" comes from a lack of confidences in ones own ablities to perform under academic conditions. see the negative circle relating to performance, understanding, self-labeling.

Quote:

Quote:
often these kids have been brought up not knowing stuff and simply playing. there is a specific age where the child is extremely receptable to outside influences, which is often when the parent spends time with the child, teaching them to talk.
because people with less social income need to work longer hours, they spend less time wtih their children, its a social retardant for the kid.
While this is true to a certain extent, it's still no excuse. Once you're 14 or so, you should be able to figure out that without an education, you'll just be flipping burgers.



again, the problem of the negative spiral comes in. "I don't understand basic maths, I can't do basic maths, I'm stupid, why should I bother with maths as I don't understand basic maths."

you'll be suprised how many people drop out simply because of that. again, it's all about self confidence in you're ablities.


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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 10:50 PM

Quote:
"Tired of school" comes from a lack of confidences in ones own ablities to perform under academic conditions.
No, it comes from being an idiot. Anyone can perform reasonably well if they want to.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 10:51 PM

Quote:
Appeals to emotion and "that's not how it is" are not counterarguments.



I don't think illiterates earn 60k a year, mvass. Which is what you seem to be. Or is it called selective reading?
Would that I could say you won't earn 60k a year with these handicaps, but not necessarily so.
In any case, let's just wait until you bring in 60k of cash, legally, before you start talking about how easy it is, right?
As far as I remember, your parents are paying for you at this point.

What would you do if they were poor, live in some slum...

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted March 22, 2010 10:54 PM
Edited by Azagal at 22:56, 22 Mar 2010.

Quote:
4. Don't major in something useless like Art History.

If anything is useless my dear deluded friend it is your talk. Why the hell would Art History be useless? Because it makes relatively less money oO? Damn you're empty man... being cold is one thing but you're just... deluded lol.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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DagothGares
DagothGares


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Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted March 22, 2010 10:56 PM

This just in: Life isn't fair!
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted March 22, 2010 10:57 PM

But that doesn't make Art History useless Dagoth!
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord

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ohforfsake
ohforfsake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 22, 2010 11:00 PM

I understood it as that he was defining useless on the basis of likelyhood of getting a job.
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted March 22, 2010 11:03 PM

Quote:
Quote:
"Tired of school" comes from a lack of confidences in ones own ablities to perform under academic conditions.
No, it comes from being an idiot. Anyone can perform reasonably well if they want to.


it's not a matter of want, Mvass, it's a matter of confidence to do it!

A kid could want to become a doctor, but doesn't have the confidence in himself to do it, so he becomes a fire fighter.

Want is a powerful force, but self confidence is just as important. Want is the objective, the goal, self confidence is the drive and motion.

calling someone an idiot on the matter is simply making them feel worse.
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DagothGares
DagothGares


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Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted March 22, 2010 11:15 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Tired of school" comes from a lack of confidences in ones own ablities to perform under academic conditions.
No, it comes from being an idiot. Anyone can perform reasonably well if they want to.


it's not a matter of want, Mvass, it's a matter of confidence to do it!

A kid could want to become a doctor, but doesn't have the confidence in himself to do it, so he becomes a fire fighter.

Want is a powerful force, but self confidence is just as important. Want is the objective, the goal, self confidence is the drive and motion.

calling someone an idiot on the matter is simply making them feel worse.

Bixie, have you ever considered that some people are just confident because they are strong (in one way or another)?
Not that they're strong, because they're confident?

Sure, there are talented people that could use confidence, but some people really shouldn't be getting confidence without merit. Confidence without merit is what we call scum.

And, well, I'm not sure how art history helps you in any way, azzie. Do you? Sure, you can pursue it freely, if it's an interest, but then it's nothing but a privilege you're taking and you're probably not getting a lot out of it.
I'm not denying the possibility as usual.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted March 22, 2010 11:21 PM

Dagoth and Ohforf correctly describe my position on this. Regarding confidence, yes, it's important, but bixie is making it seem like something rare, which it isn't. Many of these future burger-flippers are very confident - ridiculously so, in fact.

JJ:
Quote:
What would you do if they were poor, live in some slum...
I'd be getting a lot of scholarships.
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted March 22, 2010 11:39 PM
Edited by Corribus at 23:45, 22 Mar 2010.

@JJ
Quote:
In any case, let's just wait until you bring in 60k of cash, legally, before you start talking about how easy it is, right?
As far as I remember, your parents are paying for you at this point.


I make more than 60k of cash, legally: so am I entitled?  I don't want to belittle my accomplishments by saying it was easy, but it wasn't akin to moving a mountain, either.  It was a farely simple formula: work my ass off, find something I like, and do it without becoming (too) distracted.  I could be wrong, but I don't think mvass was saying it's easy to succeed and become wealthy (or at least self-sufficient).  Indeed, the whole point of his steps was work.  I think, and I agree to some extent, that the formula for success is simple - not necessarily that the execution of the formula is simple.  That's an important distinction.  Just as, perhaps, it's easy to write a recipe for baking a cake, and indeed it only takes a few simple ingredients.  But actually baking a good cake is pretty damn hard work that takes a lot of practice and dedication.  

And no, there's no promise of success.  You can work your ass off and fail.  But you are certainly more likely to succeed if you work hard than if you do nothing.  I know, a lot of people want to just sit on their ass and live comfortably.  It has a certain appeal, I admit, but I have more dignity, pride and self-respect than that, and to be honest, I wouldn't feel right eating food paid for by someone else's hard work and dedication.  Not when I can go out and earn the food myself.  But maybe that's just me.    
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Mytical
Mytical


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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted March 23, 2010 05:42 AM

Quote:
I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the US, people don't drop out to support their family, but because they want an independent source of income with which to buy alcohol and/or drugs, or are just "tired of school".


Mvass, you have no clue..do you?  At all?

One, never did drugs OR alcohol.
Two, Came from a VERY poor family
Three, Worked hard ALL my life
Four, yes I dropped out of college because I HAD to support my family.

I've went back recently, because I don't need to as much anymore, but I've been to college before.  Until just to make ends meet I had to work 2 jobs.  So go ahead, tell me I dropped out because of Drugs, or Alcohol, or pregnancy, or yada yada.  It was work two jobs or my family was out on the street and starved.  Yeah..some choice.
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