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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 29, 2010 01:13 AM |
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Read the excellent book Guns Germs and Steel if you want to know a lot more about that theoretical framework for why some societies succeed and others don't.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted May 29, 2010 12:50 PM |
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Yep, there's plenty of examples of places that are quite rich that doesn't really have any (not much anyway) useful resources. Britain for example. Few useful minerals, not much forest and not excellent ground for growing crops. It doesn't have a very high population to do all the work. It is separated from the rest of Europe. It does have enough to manage, but that's about it. Still it's a very rich country. It's richer than Sweden, that have lots of minerals (aluminum, iron, silver, copper and uranium(though we don't mine it)), we have excellent grounds for growing in some parts of it.
Elodin: I did not say the US alone. It is all of the richer western society countries. I'm a part of it as well. China is another example. It's not the Chinese that funds the Chinese government, it's we.
It's not that we take an army and go and oppress them. We did that YEARS ago, and then left them without even an apology. The US wasn't a part of it, sure. It's a product of it. People tend to forget that the US was made by killing, plundering and enslaving.
If you think that US is great, then that's good for you, but don't come and say that I have to agree! Yep, america is just another capitalistic western country, just like Britain, Sweden, France, Germany and many more.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 01, 2010 12:55 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:58, 01 Jun 2010.
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The US wasn't a part of it, sure. It's a product of it. People tend to forget that the US was made by killing, plundering and enslaving.
Actually, the US is responsible for the virtual ending of slavery.
The US did not invent slavery. Indians had slavery before the Europeans came to colonize America. Indian tribes warred for land. European nations bought some land and conquered some.
Eruope brought African slavery to America. The United States ended African slavery in America  Europe had slaves from before recorded history. The United States ended slavery here relatively quickly after the nation formed.
Oh, and as I said Africa had slaves (and still has slaves) before Europeans arrived and had slaves there for all of recorded history.
No, the US was not made by killing, plundering, and enslaveing. The US was made by bravery, winning of freedom from the European taskmasters, hard work, and the free enterprise system.
The US, though a very young nation quickly became the most powerful nation in the world and that just burns some Europeans up. Free Market capitalism, not socialism was a prime factor in Americans rapid rise to power.
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Revelation
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 01, 2010 03:43 PM |
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Slavery was abolished in Europe before it was abolished in the US.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted June 01, 2010 03:54 PM |
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The US was made by bravery, winning of freedom from the European taskmasters, hard work, and the free enterprise system.
Joke of the day.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted June 01, 2010 04:35 PM |
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Actually, the US is responsible for the virtual ending of slavery.
Slave owners who wanted to be free, elodin, and you know it.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 01, 2010 05:36 PM |
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It is interesting that this discussion has turned to slavery, as socialism is slavery.
A socialist state is a slave plantation. The State is the owner. The citizens are the slaves. The citizens work for the State for the State takes most of the fruit of their labor. The State taskmaster decides who is entitled to what for any "rights" come from the State. The State wields the lash to control the behavior of the slaves. What is acceptable to eat, drink, drive, where to set one's thermostat, what light bulbs may be used, what may be spoken, ect.
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Revelation
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 01, 2010 06:19 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:20, 01 Jun 2010.
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you can say the same about capitalism. the guy at the top of the company is the taskmaster, everyone under him is a slave. or sometimes the shareholders are the taskmasters.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 02, 2010 08:03 PM |
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Thread bump. Forgot about my post.
Quote:
Yep, there's plenty of examples of places that are quite rich that doesn't really have any (not much anyway) useful resources. Britain for example. Few useful minerals, not much forest and not excellent ground for growing crops. It doesn't have a very high population to do all the work. It is separated from the rest of Europe. It does have enough to manage, but that's about it. Still it's a very rich country. It's richer than Sweden, that have lots of minerals (aluminum, iron, silver, copper and uranium(though we don't mine it)), we have excellent grounds for growing in some parts of it.
Big economy =/= better economy. Britain is not better off than Sweden. UK has about 10x the population, vastly increasing its gross power, but that's separate from standard of living, unless you think China is also richer than Sweden. In fact, the low population density (small economy) combined with the high resources is an enormous contributor to Sweden and other place's standard of living. If a low pop country had 10x as many people, you'd (very likely) expect the standard of living to decrease.
Of course, some places are concerned about low birthrates, but not because lots of people in itself is a good thing, it's the fact that you need a well-rounded population age-wise. If you have 2x as many people going into retirement as you do people entering the workforce, you're putting a dangerous amount of weight on the new generation's back. Immigration is a good way to relieve this, though depending on who and what you're immigrating, it can come at a price.
All that aside, Britain definitely extracted enough juice from the world to give its industry a good push, and once you're on top, it's easier to stay on top.
Also, having a channel of water separating it from the mainland was a good thing. Wide enough for protection, narrow enough for easy exchange.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 03, 2010 08:05 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 20:09, 03 Jul 2010.
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If the current state of the worlds over all economy is not an indicator as to why captitalism is failing
It's an indicator that "something" has failed, but that "something" is in no way, shape, or form capitalism. It's corporatism and excessive government intervention in the economy that caused this recent crisis.
And I still find it funny you seem to think "capitalism" and "corporatism" have nothing to do with one another. Uhduuuuuhr...
Can't blame you though for not accepting that view... Obviously if you want to make it in that economy world you can't have morals or strong principles.
Kind of like Lawyers; you can't have ethical principles if you want to make it in that world 
Because money is always more important!
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No, the US was not made by killing, plundering, and enslaveing. The US was made by bravery, winning of freedom from the European taskmasters, hard work, and the free enterprise system.
LMFAO!!!! Gotta love overzealous believes in dogmas combined with stupdity...
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A socialist state is a slave plantation. The State is the owner. The citizens are the slaves. The citizens work for the State for the State takes most of the fruit of their labor. The State taskmaster decides who is entitled to what for any "rights" come from the State.
How come you forgot to mention in the idealistic idea of communism, the "state" IS the citizens? Or did you decide that wasn't important, somehow?
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The State wields the lash to control the behavior of the slaves. What is acceptable to eat, drink, drive, where to set one's thermostat, what light bulbs may be used, what may be spoken, ect.
I'm pretty sure that one is called Fascism. It's alright, you couldn't know that.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 05, 2010 02:11 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 02:14, 05 Jul 2010.
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Quote:
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No, the US was not made by killing, plundering, and enslaveing. The US was made by bravery, winning of freedom from the European taskmasters, hard work, and the free enterprise system.
LMFAO!!!! Gotta love overzealous believes in dogmas combined with stupdity...
Yes, communist ideologues are so moronic they are adorable! Well, except for all the drool on the floor, theft of what others work for, and their penchant for mass murders of non-communists. 
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How come you forgot to mention in the idealistic idea of communism, the "state" IS the citizens?
Sorry, but communists say the State-god grants rights to the citizens, so it is impossible that the State is the citizens.
The US founding fathers, however, contended that all rights come from God and that the citizens chose to form a government to protect their rights. The citizens grant the State certain powers, not the other way around.
Oh, no, I know what facism is. All I have to do is look at any communist government and they wield the whip against their citizen slaves, as I said.
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Revelation
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enamelity
Known Hero
You Misunderestimated Me
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posted July 05, 2010 02:59 AM |
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Elodin:
Slavery in the U.S. was completely different from slavery anywhere else in the world. American slave-owners (well, at least, plantation-owners) treated their slaves far more harshly and brutally than slave-owners in Europe and other parts of the world. Also, the U.S. is the only nation in which it took a full-blown Civil War to end slavery; in Great Britain, for example, it was outlawed by a piece of legislation passed before the American Civil War (as has already been mentioned)
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 05, 2010 03:00 AM |
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The citizens grant the State certain powers, not the other way around.
I wasn't aware that it was the citizens who created and elected the Patriot act, for instance.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2010 03:07 AM |
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To be fair, most of the citizens did support it at the time.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 05, 2010 06:56 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 07:27, 05 Jul 2010.
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Sorry to counter every point made but they were bothering me for a while and the resuscitation of the thread brought an excuse. Also I have questions (at the end) and want to learn your viewpoints. It's always enjoyable to listen to other people's thought and ideas afterall particularly if you do not 100% agree. It's the best way to learn.
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Actually, the US is responsible for the virtual ending of slavery.
Within its own borders at least. After defeating State Rights.
Mexico ended Slavery before the United States of America, which is something that seriously annoyed Texas at the time. The Underground Railroad however went to a place that abolished far earlier, Canada.
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The US did not invent slavery.
Check. However the Despots you mention so often did not invent Genocide either. Both are horrible means to an end. That does not make one's situational use of it alright. "But they did it first over there" doesn't cut it in a just society. Which is why it's easier just to admit the mistakes of the past instead of trying to shift blame. It's not like you personally did anything anyway, it was ignorant colonists or natural born citizens that came far before you and possibly before your family even landed in the country. Why take it so personally? Nobody is attacking you.
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Indians had slavery before the Europeans came to colonize America. Indian tribes warred for land. European nations bought some land and conquered some.
And enslaved others yes, but enslavement by the natives was not quite as brutal as enslavement by some europeans (particularly the Spanish). Of course, a large minority did support abolition at the time (the majority were instead apathetic). Of course, said treatment is at least only as bad as treatment of slaves in Ancient Rome, Greece and Israel.
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Europe brought African slavery to America. Quote:
The United States ended African slavery in America
Only because England couldn't as they no longer controlled America. The only thing preventing the English from helping the South in the civil war was that most of the world at that point was steadfast against slavery... and France and the US were buddies since the Revolution. Not that England was scared, Napoleon was dead and gone.
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Europe had slaves from before recorded history. The United States ended slavery here relatively quickly after the nation formed.
As mentioned, Ancient Greece, Rome, Israel and all of their colonies and territories (which let's face it, covered most of Europe and the middle east at some point). Nobody is denying that. But the entire concept of slavery is a backwards notion, which was thrown off by nearly all of the world's greatest powers at the time between 30-100 years before America. Yes, I agree that 90-ish years is pretty fast for a nation to discard Slavery entirely, but there were still backwards laws in place for such a long time that allowed those who were freed to be targets of legal domestic terrorism for the next hundred years. (I like to think perhaps Mr. Lincoln might have created such needed protections had he survived much longer). Spain however, was a backwards nation and held onto Slavery for another good 15-20 years or so after the American Civil war, so yes, America beat a European nation to the punch there.
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Oh, and as I said Africa had slaves (and still has slaves) before Europeans arrived and had slaves there for all of recorded history.
It does not make enslaving others right if other people did it first.
"Mommy. You can't punish me for torturing the cat. Uncle Jimmy-Bob did it too before I got there and for as long as I can remember."
Or the non-violent version
"I saw my colleagues dipping into the 401K so I did it too. What's the problem?"
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No, the US was not made by killing, plundering, and enslaveing.
I disagree, rather EVERY nation was made by that to some (varying) degree. There is no such thing as a country that is a bastion of morality. If such a thing did exist, the world would be a much better place than it is now.
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The US was made by bravery, winning of freedom from the European taskmasters, hard work, and the free enterprise system.
Bravery, yes. All countries are forged of Bravery to some degree. Freedom from other powers, that sounds familiar to Iran and Cuba, which formerly were controlled by puppet governments. Hard work, yes. You cannot become a member of the G6 (or 8, or 20) if the people of your country are entirely lazy slobs. Sadly, there never was or will be a free enterprise system. 100% Free enterprise (anarchic-capitalism) requires zero regulation (many more dangerous products on the market). You've mentioned many times that racist companies would flounder in a free enterprise environment, but what history shows is instead, people will flock to them either for support or simply due to controversy; causing them to be successful.
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Free Market capitalism, not socialism was a prime factor in Americans rapid rise to power.
That and using military force to gain favourable trading status or to take resources away from third world nations unable to fight back. I'm not saying Europe or even Canada are any better but wow, there are many factors. Also it was never 100% free market to begin with (due to sales taxes, tariffs, various laws and regulations etc). But don't worry, it's not like we don't also get things like Cadmium laced Miley Cyrus jewelry.
Basically, the entire world is a land of corruption and the lack of innocence among every nation is too profound to not point out.
I have some questions as well.
Is Socialism always wrong?
Is the Free Market really the answer for everything?
Does that mean we should make libraries more like private book rental facilities and only hire mercenaries for our armed forces? Should all roads be privately owned Toll roads to may for their upkeep (pay for what you use)? Should firemen be paid by the people whose lives/possessions they save (like the original ones made by Marcus Licinius Crassus? He is one of the richest people to have ever lived, a free market master I suppose)? Are the socialist CIA, FBI, DHS, NSA, etc in need of privatization as well (personally I believe they need consolidation instead but what they heck)?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 05, 2010 01:11 PM |
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@Shyranis,
I hardly think you have countered any of my points, much less all of them. Unfortunately if I were to respond by numerous quotes of your post and follow with my refutations of your comments I'd be accused of engaging in a quote war.
Europeans have a history of being owned by the State. For much of that history, it was being owned by a Monarch. Now many Europeans are effectively owned by the Socialist State.
Unfortunately, African slavery was imposed on America by the European Masters. Indeed, America herself was slave to the oppressive European Master. Europe began to treat America more and more cruelly but was unable to break the spirit of the noble American people.
When the cruel treatment became too much to bear, America loudly proclaimed, "all men are created equal" and arose to throw off the shackles of her European Master and won her freedom through revolution, not through benevolence on the part of her European taskmaster.
Upon the declaration of her freedom, the European Master did not say, "Sorry, we have mistreated you. It was wrong for us to own you and treat you so cruelly." No, instead, the cruel European master sought to be more cruel still and hoped to once again capture and this time break the spirit of America. Europe did not succeed in her intentions and America remains free to this day.
On the other hand, sadly, much of Europe is not free. Many European citizens are owned by their cruel socialist government which has indoctrinated them into thinking that such enslavement is natural and good.
America has grown from her original thirteen colonies. She has now surpassed her former European Master in both economic and military power and is the envy of the world. The American people and the principles the people proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence are what is primarily responsible for America's greatness.
Unfortunately, may Europeans reject those principles in favor of being owned by the State. For them freedom seems to be too frightening and they wish for someone to tell them what to think, what to eat, ect. They cling to their socialist master and thank him for his "benevolence" in "wisely" taking what they "don't need" and dictating their every action.
America has thus far not been willing to trade freedom for the "security" that a socialist Master offers. Instead, she said, "Give me liberty, or give me death!" Fortunately, she won her liberty from the cruel bondage of her European Master.
Unfortunately, since the early twentieth century the ideas set forth by the founders have been under attack by "progressives." They claim the truths are not "self-evident", that all men are not created equal, that rights come from the State, not from God, that "benevolent" "experts" will tell us how to live. There is no need for consent of the governed for the government beaurocrats know best.
However, such thinking is hardly truly progressive, but is instead regressive. It again relegates the people into being slaves. Instead of being owned by a Monarch, they would be owned by a socialist State. Oh for that day that Europe will reject the principles of slavery and embrace the idea that all men are created equal instead of embracing a Master-slave relationship with the government!
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Is Socialism always wrong?
Yes, unless it is socialism within a group in which every member agrees to it. Otherwise money is stolen from some to give to others. However, if you wanted to establish a socialist commune with a group of your friends that would not be wrong.
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Is the Free Market really the answer for everything?
Yep
There are legitimate functions of the federal government that are spelled out in the Constitution. One of those is to protect the people from all armies foreign and domestic. Military forces and federal police/covert forces are thus legitimate functions of the government. Roads are also an enumerated power of Congress in the Constitution so interstate roads can be legitimately funded by the federal government.
Firemen, policemen, ect, for specific localities should be funded by the states or by local governments.
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Revelation
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 05, 2010 01:18 PM |
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Gee imagine that, trying to stick up for the less fortunate What an abominable ide-- Wait, isn't that what christianity teaches?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 05, 2010 02:21 PM |
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That's 100% American Fascism, complete with Historic lies, twists untruths and general demonizaation of "socialism" and European ideas of politics and society.
A shame, really.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 05, 2010 02:34 PM |
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Moon: You're not helping.
Elodin: How about Social Security, Medicare, Department of Education, Transit, Department of Energy, IRS (now I KNOW people don't all agree to that particular socialist department), FTC, EPA, NASA, etc?
Certainly not all of those are ordained in the constitution.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 05, 2010 02:39 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 14:39, 05 Jul 2010.
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You do realize argueing with Elodin is pointless right? The man is stuck in his own twisted personal little world based on prejudice, generalization, and dogmas; his statements have no basis whatsoever and can simply be dismissed as such.
It's that simple.
I should thank him though.. He perfectly demonstrates the pitfalls I can run into, and teaches me what I shouldn't become.
JJ: You said it.
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