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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Israel
Thread: Israel [ This thread is 19 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 (7) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ]
Darmo
Darmo


Known Hero
True Gentleman
posted June 07, 2010 11:19 AM

Quote:
i wanted to qoute the 6't violent ship discussion with the navy captin who requested to change course before the take over:
Navy officer: "this is the israel navy force,please change your course"
ship captin: " Go back to Aushwits"

case closed.if i heard that statement i'd fire the bullet myself.
Quote:
He has never said he wants to destroy or annihilate the nation of Israel. He has made it quite clear he wants the regime dead, which is hardly unique to him.

are you kidding he had said that meny times!


@ Antipaladin
U said Bull####
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted June 07, 2010 12:40 PM
Edited by Minion at 12:42, 07 Jun 2010.

Israel will reject a proposed international commission to investigate its deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla

How surprising.


BBC News
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted June 07, 2010 12:42 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 12:42, 07 Jun 2010.

Good for them.  Like we need another worthless, international commission.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
The Blue Lady liaison
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 07, 2010 12:47 PM

The reason for the decision is that international commission are usually biased against Israel. Instead, Israel will conduct its own investigation with one or two international watchers making sure that everything is done correctly. At least that's the plan right now.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted June 07, 2010 12:55 PM

Usually biased against Israel? Why do you think/know that it is so?

I really hope there are international watchers with the power to see ALL of the investigation. And not from US.

Death in that area is so common, it is probably hard to understand why "the west" is upset with soldiers killing 9 activists.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted June 07, 2010 02:00 PM

Quote:
Death in that area is so common, it is probably hard to understand why "the west" is upset with soldiers killing 9 activists.


You mean 9 TERRORISTS, don't you? An activist is not a person who beats people with iron clubs, stabs, and shoots people, as the video clearly shows the cowardly Islamic terrorists doing.

An activist is a person who goes around peacefully with signs or who works to change legislation peacefully.

Yeah, the UN is heavily biased against Israel.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 07, 2010 02:09 PM

Attacking soldiers is a rebel.
Attacking civilians is a terrorist.

There's a difference.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted June 07, 2010 02:25 PM

Quote:
Usually biased against Israel? Why do you think/know that it is so?  


The UN.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 07, 2010 04:43 PM

Most americans are not aware how much of their tax revenue is sent to Israel as direct aid annualy. Nothing but in 1997 this aid was estimated to 10 billions dollars. No wonder they have a modern army for bashing on primitive countries. 1/3 of foreign aid the USA accord to other countries is sent to one country totalizing 0.001 percent of the global population. Sad.
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Baklava
Baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted June 07, 2010 05:41 PM

Things would be so much easier if they'd just surrender and be over with it.

Maybe you French guys should give them a free lesson or two.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 07, 2010 06:13 PM

Quote:
a video clip released by the Israeli army which shows the activists attacking the Israeli troops with clubs and iron bars as they arrive on deck...

Clubs and iron bars... I see. Certainly the favorite weapons of terrorists around the world. A well-prepared terror attack with overwhelming weapon presence, leading to unccounted casualties among the Israelis...

Ridiculous.

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Wolfsburg
Wolfsburg


Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
posted June 07, 2010 06:45 PM
Edited by Wolfsburg at 14:15, 08 Jun 2010.

Disclaimer:
First and foremost, before people call me an antisemite, which is one of the arguments I consider to be one of the weakest in existence, I pre-justify myself:
I harshly criticize Israel as a state. My words are directed towards the governament and its supporters, not the nation of Israel and its people. The following text is foreign policy criticism, disagree with it all you want, but if you are willing to dispute it, please do it within the boundaries of reasonable criticism.

I claim Israel has emphatically violated:

- International definition of Territorial Waters
#The ship was raided beyond twelve nautical miles from the coast, a territory on which Israel has no jurisdiction.

- International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

 # physical integrity, in the form of the right to life and freedom from arbitrary execution, torture, and slavery (Articles 6, 7, and 8);
 # liberty and security of the person, in the form of freedom from arbitrary arrest and detention and the right to habeas corpus (Article 9);
 # procedural fairness in law, in the form of rights to due process, a fair and impartial trial, the presumption of innocence, and recognition as a person before the law (Articles 10, 11, 14, 15, and 16);

- Several others articles of the International Humanitarian Law

  # Persons hors de combat and those not taking part in hostilities shall be protected and treated humanely.
  # It is forbidden to kill or injure an enemy who surrenders or who is hors de combat.
  # The wounded and sick shall be cared for and protected by the party to the conflict which has them in its power.
  # Captured combatants and civilians must be protected against acts of violence and reprisals. They shall have the right to correspond with their families and to receive relief.
 # No one shall be subjected to torture, corporal punishment or cruel or degrading treatment.

hose are facts. We can discuss about the situation in which those facts occurred in order to attenuate the severity of those violations, but disputing that those violations occurred is just juvenile.

If it was any other land in the globe they would catch some serious heat because of it, and would be seriously pressured to allow an international investigation. Which I think is absolutely reasonable. Israel on the other hand has proven more than a couple times to be above international scrutiny. They are historically aided by the US to be able to do so.

That is the absurd part of it. That kind of attitude has spawned monsters before. Im not asking for special punishment. I just want Israel to be subject to the same procedures my dear Brazil would be if we had killed 9 alledged argentinian wellfare workers OUTSIDE OUR TERRITORIAL WATERS.

Wolfs

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted June 07, 2010 06:56 PM

Quote:
You mean 9 TERRORISTS, don't you? An activist is not a person who beats people with iron clubs, stabs, and shoots people, as the video clearly shows the cowardly Islamic terrorists doing.
So 1 guy shoots, stabs and hits (self defense?), and then 10 guys have to die with several head wounds...interesting policy from such a peacefull country.

What is next?

If Israel is going on like that, it will be seperated in the world pretty soon. And then we'll see how they will act alone with enemies all around....
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted June 07, 2010 06:56 PM

Quote:
Quote:
a video clip released by the Israeli army which shows the activists attacking the Israeli troops with clubs and iron bars as they arrive on deck...

Clubs and iron bars... I see. Certainly the favorite weapons of terrorists around the world. A well-prepared terror attack with overwhelming weapon presence, leading to unccounted casualties among the Israelis...

Ridiculous.


And knives. Are you unaware that people can be killed with knives and iron clubs? Actually, those can be pretty effective in a suprise attack up close.

Additionally, they took away the guns of the soldiers and shot them. Only after such actions did the soldiers use their guns.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

Quote:
Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said on Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkish warships would accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip.

According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups.

During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navyís takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israelís blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

The military is working to identify the passengers and is looking into the possibility that some of them have been involved in terror attacks. Some of them are apparently known Islamic extremists.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/02/french-judge-says-turkish-charity-gaza-flotilla-terror-ties/

Quote:
The Turkish Islamic charity behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 Al Qaeda plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.

The Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted June 07, 2010 07:02 PM

So now people get called terrorists because they have bulletproof vests and gas masks to protect themselves from attacking actions from israel military?

It gets more and more funny....

And what else then the text above would the Isrealian military give as "information" to the media? Should they say: "Oh...we are sorry...it turned out to be a harmless ship and we killed 10 of them by mistake. Please forgive us, we pay 96$ for each of their families!"?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 07, 2010 07:04 PM

Quote:

Additionally, they took away the guns of the soldiers and shot them. Only after such actions did the soldiers use their guns.



How can the soldiers use the guns they don't have anymore?
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted June 07, 2010 07:13 PM

@angelito

Sorry, you appear to have poor vision. If you watched the vidoe you would see more that one of the "peaceful activists" were trying to murder the Jews.

@Wolfsburg

Your "facts" are wrong. I already quoted internatinal law. Isreal was well within its rights to stop the flotilla. 5 of the ships did not attack the Isralis. The other ship had cowardly Islamic terrorists aboard and they did attack the Jews. The Jews tried to respond with non-lethal force (paint guns) but then the terrorists started shooting them and they responded with lethal force at that point.

Your claim that International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is likewise a farce.  Obviously everyone was detained for investigation. Since then many have been released as it was determined they were not involved.

Likewsise you claim that several others articles of the International Humanitarian Law wer not followed is a farce and you offered no evidence they had been broken.


Quote:
We can discuss about the situation in which those facts occurred in order to attenuate the severity of those violations, but disputing that those violations occurred is just juvenile.


No, it is not juvinile to say Israeli soldiers have a right to defend themselves. And you offered NO evidence for any of your false claims.

Quote:
Israel on the other hand has proven more than a couple times to be above international scrutiny. They are historically aided by the US to be able to do so.

That is the absurd part of it. That kind of attitude has spawned monsters before.


A UN investigation of Israel would be nothing but a farce.

So, Jews are evil monsters because they defend themselves, eh?

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
The Blue Lady liaison
HC SUPPORTER
posted June 07, 2010 07:15 PM

@Angelito
Whoever said it was one guy? In fact, most of the people who attacked the soldiers got out of it just fine.

@Wolfsburg
First of all:
Quote:
I claim Israel has emphatically violated:

Quote:
Those are facts.

Your claims are not facts until proven so.
As for the actual proof for you claims... how long did you study international law? How long did you study war laws? How long did you study sea laws?
See, I try to refrain from using the word of the law because I realize that I don't know squat on the matter. I have heard pretty convincing arguments from both sides and I lack the knowledge and understanding of those laws to decide which one of them is right. So let me ask you again before we continue this discussing - how well-versed are you in those kinds of laws?

You also mentioned that in any other place in the globe we would get some serious heat because of that. Really? Did you happen to check about the stuff that's going on in Africa? Heck, why go that far, can you recall when was the last time the UN asked HAMAS to do  thorough investigation of their attacks on Israeli citizens? In fact, it is because Israel is a civilized, democratic, western-like state that we are being pressured much more than any country in, say Africa or Asia, would have been. And have no fear, there will be an investigation and it will be thorough transparent to the world (at least that's what is planned now), but it will not be held by anti-Israeli bodies.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted June 07, 2010 11:03 PM

@Wolfsburg. A great post, and pinpoints my concerns as well. This is especially true: "Israel on the other hand has proven more than a couple times to be above international scrutiny. They are historically aided by the US to be able to do so."

The claim that UN is an anti-Israeli organization is a bit juvenile. You really believe in global conspiracy against Israel? I don't think so. UN resolutions are made against Israel, even more than against any other nation. Could the reasons for that possibly be that Isral breaks international law on a daily basis (settlements, for example)? Or is it the globar conspiracy against the nation of Israel?

Btw Geny for your information they do condemn Hamas acts that are condemnable. Just browse through their internet pages if you don't believe that. Media doesn't get too hyped about that though.. Could it be that Israel gets more attention from UN because people at Isreali side have humane living conditions whereas people at Gaza are completely blocked from the rest of the world and are hence slowly suffocating? No it can't be that, only that UN is anti-Israeli makes sense.

Furthermore, as JJ hinted, using the buzz-word terrorist of anyone you dislike is getting tedious...


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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted June 07, 2010 11:42 PM
Edited by Elodin at 23:49, 07 Jun 2010.

No, terrorist is not a "buzz word." HAMAS is a terrorist organization. The people who attacked Israeli soldiers were obviously terrorists, not "just someone I don't like."  

Quote:
The claim that UN is an anti-Israeli organization is a bit juvenile.


Sorry, no. "Juvenile" seems to be a buzz word for your side of the debate though.

Quote:
UN resolutions are made against Israel, even more than against any other nation. Could the reasons for that possibly be that Isral breaks international law on a daily basis (settlements, for example)?


Nah. The representatives of most of the Muslim nations are jihadists who hate the Jews. Then there are the socialist states. Marx was an anti-semite and many who follow socialist seem to be too. Notice, I DID NOT SAY ALL.

Clicky

Quote:
Demonization of Israel: "Zionism is Racism"

An alien observing the United Nations' debates, reading its resolutions, and walking its halls could well conclude that a principal purpose of the world body is to censure a tiny country called Israel.

 
1949: Israel admitted into the UN


Beginning in the late 1960's, the full weight of the UN was gradually but deliberately turned against the country it had conceived by General Assembly resolution a mere two decades earlier. The campaign to demonize and delegitimize Israel in every UN and international forum was initiated by the Arab states together with the Soviet Union, and supported by what has become known as an "automatic majority" of Third World member states.

The campaign reached new strength in wake of the Arab oil embargo of 1973, when many African states were pressured into severing relations with Israel. In 1975, following a steady drumbeat of anti-Israel declarations pushed through the International Women's Year Conference in Mexico and then the Organization of African Unity, the majority of the General Assembly adopted the "Zionism is Racism" resolution. At the same time, it instituted a series of related measures that together installed an infrastructure of anti-Israel propaganda throughout the UN. Years later, after strenuous efforts by democratic forces, the infamous resolution was repealed.

Legacy of 1975: Anti-Israel Infrastructure Remains

However, the legacy of 1975 remains fully intact: UN committees, annual UN resolutions, an entire UN bureaucratic division, permanent UN exhibits in New York and Geneva headquarters -- all dedicated to a relentless and virulent propaganda war against the Jewish state. Together, they have made the UN into Ground Zero for today's new anti-Semitism, which is the irrational scapegoating of Israel with the true intended target being Jews. Not only do these anti-Israel measures incite hatred against Israelis and Jews everywhere, but they have done not a thing to help the Palestinian situation. On the contrary: they give strength and succor to extremists.

 



Paradoxically, one of the greatest violators of the UN Charter's equality guarantee has been the UN body charged with establishing and enforcing international human rights, the Human Rights Council. (For more on the bias of this body, formerly known as the Commission on Human Rights, click here.)

Anti-Israel Bias in the UN System

The UN's discrimination against Israel is not a minor infraction, nor a parochial nuisance of interest solely to those concerned with equal rights of the Jewish people and the Jewish state. Instead, the world body's obsession with censuring Israel at every turn directly affects all citizens of the world, for it constitutes (a) a severe violation of the equality principles guaranteed by the UN Charter and underlying the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and (b) a significant obstacle to the UN's ability to carry out its proper mandate.

None of this means Israel should be above the law. Every country, including every democracy, commits human rights violations, and states should be held to account accordingly, both domestically and internationally. Yet Israel does have the right to be treated equally under the law. The UN Charter and the rules of natural justice demand no less. It is legitimate for UN bodies to criticize Israel, but not when they do do so unfairly, selectively, massively, sometimes exclusively, and always obsessively.

Likewise, it is perfectly legitimate to call attention to the rights of the Palestinian people and their often difficult conditions. But it is something else entirely to abuse their cause for the sole objective of scapegoating Israel and the Jewish people.



 
1975: Israeli Ambassador Chaim Herzog tearing the "Zionism equals Racism" resolution.


General Assembly Ignored Sudan, But Condemned Israel 22 Times

The countless anti-Israel resolutions and related debates consume an astonishing proportion of the UN community's precious resources. This year, during the 61th Session of the General Assembly (2006-2007), the time spent by ambassadors on enacting the 22nd anti-Israel resolution of the year was time not spent on passing a single resolution on Sudan's genocide in Darfur. Diplomats at foreign ministries or UN missions have a limited amount of time to devote to any particular UN session. Because every proposed UN resolution is subjected to intensive review by various levels and branches of government, a direct result of the anti-Israel texts is a crippling of the UN's ability to tackle the world's ills.

UN bias against Israel is overt in bodies such as the General Assembly, which each year passes some nineteen resolutions against Israel and none against most other member states, including the world's most repressive regimes. The World Health Organization, meeting at its annual assembly in Geneva in 2005, passed but one resolution against a specific country: Israel was charged with violating Palestinian rights to health. Similarly, the International Labour Organization, at its annual 2005 conference in Geneva, carried only one major country-specific report on its annual agenda -- a lengthy document charging Israel with violating the rights of Palestinian workers.

In the summer of 2004, the UN's International Court of Justice at The Hague issued an advisory opinion that followed the script of a political campaign orchestrated by the PLO representative at the UN, Nasser al-Kidwa. The busiest corridor of the Palais des Nations, the European headquarters of the UN in Geneva, displays no less than ten larger-than-life panels devoted to the Palestinian cause. The clear message, that the Palestinians are the world's greatest human rights victim; the clear implication, that Israel is the world's greatest human rights abuser.

There are three special UN entities dedicated to the Palestinian cause. The oldest is the Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and Other Arabs of the Occupied Territories, created in 1968. In 1975, the General Assembly added the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. Supporting its work is the Division for Palestinian Rights. Lodged within the UN Secretariat, the Division boasts a sixteen-member staff and a budget of millions, which it devotes to the constant promotion of anti-Israel propaganda throughout the world.

Although Secretary-General Kofi Annan has made important pronouncements against anti-Semitism, and even -- before a Jerusalem audience -- against some aspects of the UN's anti-Israel bias, his regular statements on the Arab-Israeli conflict are disproportionately critical of Israel. Senior aide Lakhdar Brahimi publicly described Israel as a country whose policy constitutes "the great poison in the region."

Time to Take Action to End Bias and Injustice at the UN

The anti-Israel apparatus within the UN, therefore, is of considerable magnitude, and cripples the functioning of the organization. The overt bias practiced against one state undermines the UN's credibility and integrity. Anyone who truly cares about the UN must take action to end this gross injustice and criminal distraction from world pandemics such as disease and poverty. Given the current period of UN reform, now is the time. Many more UN officials, member states, NGOs, and others need to speak out and actively oppose this longstanding inequality. To begin taking action, click here.

To read UN Watch's report on the UN and anti-Semitism, click here.

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