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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 16, 2010 09:16 AM |
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Your right, it isn't. Nor is it a religious debate, however it is about misconceptions, and about assumptions. Oforf put it better then I can.
Also, you have no clue what I do and don't believe..which is the point. Has been my point the whole time. You ASSUME you know, but you don't.
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Message received.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 16, 2010 09:20 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 09:26, 16 Jun 2010.
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Yeah, I associate with any and all of the following. Because I like to learn why they think the way they think.
White supremacist, Goths, Black supremacist, Christians (and various other religious people of all kinds), Republicans, Democrats, Wiccans...just to name a few. Yet I am None of these things. I just refuse to be so narrow minded that I will only be friends with those who believe what I believe.
Btw..sending a couple of 'clean x up' HCMs. What I said was for example only for the challenge I laid out, I harbor no ill will toward Elodin..and personal attacks are getting out of hand.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 16, 2010 11:07 AM |
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Strange notions:
When it's about Christianity and belief, it's "YOU don't define what a Christian is, the Bible or Jesus defines it." Better: It's not enough to SAY, I'm a Christian, or to hang about with Christians, your deeds must be in accordance with the teachings.
Strangely enough, now when it's about Marxism/Communism and Obama, suddenly it's the other way round?
Now, suddenly hanging about with what is called "Marxists" is enough?
And, VERY seriously, everyone who is NOT nodding their head when "redistribution of wealth" is mentioned, is a complete and utter moron, because that's what's needed, very simple and very easy. Just take a look at the credit interest, that is taken out of the economic equation, and you'll see that the Western states now have the same problems than the 3rd world states - we all need debt and interest reduction, and we need to channel more "wealth" to those who are in need of the most basic things, simply because the whole economy will profit.
This is a very ugly and very unnecessary discussion, because Obama is as much a Marxist as eny other president of the US, so I'm stopping it right here, with one last comment: the people who are REALLY rich (I don't mean those who earn well), they get ever more rich JUST BECAUSE OF THAT. Being rich rather automatically leads to becoming ever richer - which is clearly an unfair advantage of those who have. There is EVERY reason to justify BEING or BECOMING rich, but there is no reason at all to justify becoming ever richer just because you are rich.
Which is what's wrong.
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted June 16, 2010 11:23 AM |
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I think what would be really great, would be if the essential stuff, like food, and whatever is required to have a good health and be able to be active, were independent of money. Then I'd say we could remove taxes and stuff, and people who'd want the luxery of the world, the emotional satisfaction, could work to get it. Some will clearly have more advantages than others in that department, but in the end, all have equal possibility and heck, with the essential stuff covered, you could try to make it yourself even in stead of working.
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Living time backwards
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted June 16, 2010 12:59 PM |
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Quote:
Being rich rather automatically leads to becoming ever richer
It certainly makes earning more money easier, but I wouldn't say "automatically".
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted June 16, 2010 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
the leftist who authored the site has left sanity
I see what you did there!
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted June 16, 2010 01:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Being rich rather automatically leads to becoming ever richer
It certainly makes earning more money easier, but I wouldn't say "automatically".
No, it IS automatic, because money can always earn more. For example, you can lend the US money (that is, you buy debt papers from the US; after all the US lend a trillion a year). As long as there are the US, this will simply pay.
Note, that this doesn't happen with other stuff. So everyone who is rich has the chance to simply become richer by lending their money.
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ohforfsake
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posted June 16, 2010 01:44 PM |
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It is still not certain. It's a dangerous game, depending on how much you aim to gain. If bankruptcy happens, you'll loose it all, unless you've some kind of insurance.
Edit: It's somewhat like playing on sure odds. If you combine odds from different game companies on sport events you can often find ways for more than 100% payback, i.e. guaranteed win. However to get anything of value, you often have to bet thousands to millions more than what you get in return.
So maybe if you bet 1 million, you'll get 1 thousand no matter what, but if the game company does not play to the rules that you assume to be always true (maybe it's a fraud, maybe they go bankrupt, maybe some error happens), then you loose 1 million in stead of gaining 1000. Is the odds of this kind of thing happening below 1000, then it's a way that in average will generate money, I believe, but if not, then one will in average loose money, and quite a lot.
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Living time backwards
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JollyJoker
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posted June 16, 2010 02:10 PM |
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Not at all. You just need to lend your money to the state. Nothing dangerous about that.
The US alone has a debt of 10 Trillion dollars - they owe that money, and it is safe as long as there are US. The same is true for other solid states.
There is no risk at all.
And if a risk is there - in Greece we had a bankruptcy of the state threatening - the lackeys of those owning everything, that is, GOVERNMENTS, make sure, OTHERS pay up, so that no one loses their money.
You can lose only when you are too greedy, putting money into the unsafe stuff.
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ohforfsake
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posted June 16, 2010 02:15 PM |
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Iceland comes to mind. They may still owe money, but they can't pay. So it's money lost in that sense.
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Living time backwards
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JollyJoker
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posted June 16, 2010 03:52 PM |
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Oh, please.
ICELAND is your point?
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted June 16, 2010 03:54 PM |
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Quote:
Strange notions:
@JJ
It is unfortunate that you have chosen to make false statment about what have said rather than try to counter what I have said.
IF you can point out where I said that hanging out with Marxists makes you a Marxist please do so. Otherwise, please delete your false statement.
Quote:
the people who are REALLY rich (I don't mean those who earn well), they get ever more rich JUST BECAUSE OF THAT. Being rich rather automatically leads to becoming ever richer - which is clearly an unfair advantage of those who have. There is EVERY reason to justify BEING or BECOMING rich, but there is no reason at all to justify becoming ever richer just because you are rich.
Which is what's wrong.
As an "evil capitalist pig" I can tell you that a person does not become richer simply because he is "rich." He has to invest his money or expand his buisiness for example. Business is always risky and there are many things that can occur that cause you to lose money.
Oh, what makes it wrong for a rich person to become richer? And what is the cuttoff point for being "too rich."
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Revelation
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 16, 2010 04:16 PM |
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for rich people becoming richer, Theoretically there is nothing wrong with it.
However, money is always limited, and if you get richer, someone is inevitably going to get poorer. Quite often, it is people who have less than you who get poorer becuase of your endevours. and if you think about it, that is pretty damn callous.
anyway, as you say, you may loose your investment. However, when you are rich, you have connections. and when you have connections, you are able to get out of situations quickly. there is a huge "Old boys" network that is in our society, where the majority of the rich know, or at least know of, each other and will help each other out of poverty. Again, it's an investment, cementing your reputation in a group as, well, if not charitable, then willing to help your fellow man out.
this is not the rockafellas or the kennedies, or anything like that. In fact, you can clearly see it with the situation with the recession and the banking collapse. whilst thousands of people lost their savings and just as many their jobs, the banks still payed their top executives ten's of millions in their final wage check.
this group is naturally, against taxation or increase in taxation, and the majority of them hold very rigid views on "well, they should have worked harder," when speaking of the poor family who live in a box whilst both parents and eldest children work 1-4 jobs in order to keep food on the table. and with the amount of money they have, they can easily use their reputation to either buy or influence certain parts of the media to print more positive image of their persona, or simply print rubbish.
any politician who wants to increase taxation by any standing for any reason, then the media that is owned by the rich (about 40-70% of it) start to bleat on about how it will hit their audiences hard, who are generally poor and most likely benefit from it, when it is the owners of these sections of the media that are under threat.
this is all basic A level sociology, I don't even need to go into any of the serious stuff. our culture is run on companies, these companies are run by people, and these people influence our culture.
I'm not bemoaning it, I'm really just saying how it works.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 16, 2010 04:33 PM |
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If you are really rich, you can simply invest your money here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Treasury_security
That's as safe as it gets - and the US are not the only "safe" country there.
This will earn you money, just because you have money. Which is of course money the TAX PAYER is paying you.
THIS money, the money people earn with their money, has to be taxed massively, at least above a certain margin.
And that's neither theft nor redistribution of wealth.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 16, 2010 04:38 PM |
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@JJ
That's certainly one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that, when I invest in the government, I'm essentially giving the government a loan of my money, money that the government can then use to (allegedly!) improves the lives of its citizens. So, in some sense, the citizens are indirectly paying me for the services that my money, loaned to the government, provide.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
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posted June 16, 2010 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
If you are really rich, you can simply invest your money here:
Investing in US treasury bonds does not provide a large return on investment, but it is a "safe" investment in that the US government is not likely to fold and default on its debts. Investing in such bonds is loaning to the government. Such investment is hardly limited to "rich" people however.
If you wish to discuss investments furthur, please create another thread because we are getting off topic here.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 16, 2010 05:33 PM |
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no, we aren't
if you claim Obama is a communist, then we must look into what communism actually means and how it relates to the system we have now. discussing how the rich invests and how the rich become richer is adds something to the thread, as it is something marx forsaw and fought against. this is what communism struggles against, the huge class divide between the haves and the have nots.
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Azagal
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posted June 17, 2010 12:35 AM |
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lol?
Quote:
...then we must look into what communism actually means and how it relates to the system we have now
*****WARNING*****
----major thread derailment incoming----
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 17, 2010 12:48 AM |
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If you are looking for something Legitimate to go "What the heck!" with Obama. I can supply you with something right now.
When he was campaigning he swore up and down that America would go back to following 'the letter of the law' and reinstating Habius Corpus (spelling). He lambasted Bush for doing the exact same thing he turns around and is doing right now. Now I am no fan of actual terrorist, but not giving people the chance to prove they are not one in a court of law? Absolutely ridiculous.
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Azagal
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posted June 17, 2010 12:53 AM |
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Are you talking about the Habeas Corpus?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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