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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: New (unofficial) patch for ToE / AI mod
Thread: New (unofficial) patch for ToE / AI mod This thread is 38 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 34 35 36 37 38 · «PREV
magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 11, 2017 01:46 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:48, 11 Oct 2017.

I just remembered aggressivity is actually modifyable, even without Quantomas help, I was wondering if you have also encountered this behavior on random maps? and when AI is not allied like 2 vs 2 vs 2?, the reason I have likely not encountered it myself is because I would consider a game lost after losing all my troops against one AI and quit.

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 11, 2017 02:43 AM

magnomagus said:
I just remembered aggressivity is actually modifyable, even without Quantomas help, I was wondering if you have also encountered this behavior on random maps? and when AI is not allied like 2 vs 2 vs 2?, the reason I have likely not encountered it myself is because I would consider a game lost after losing all my troops against one AI and quit.


My last 3 maps prior to this one were random maps with no allied players.  All FFA 8 players and I pretty much notice it on every game.  The last game numerous stacks of challenging / high threat AI's were constantly near my 2nd castle and they never once tried to take it.  Sometimes they took out a scout standing outside it.

Also from what I could see of the dwarven faction next to me.  He had atleast like 6 to 8 different times of very high lvl armies / heroes go thru his territory and yet he always had his main hero army.  

I just like H3 style where it was kinda chaotic.  First month if you had 8 players you could pretty much guarantee one of them was gonna get taken out.  

I just would like to see them finish me off and take out low defended castles like the one in this last game.  Was really disappointing to see a huge army walk right by my obliterated troop hero in castle.

How to modify how aggressive the AI's are?  Only part I know of is the option when starting the map I always set all the AI's to aggressive.

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Elessar
Elessar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 11, 2017 06:16 PM
Edited by Elessar at 18:17, 11 Oct 2017.

The lack of AI aggressiveness is truly a major issue (as I have argued here before).  Top heroes basically ignore each other, and generally won't even attack anything but the most lightly equipped scouts.  It becomes unintentially hilarious to see them ignore a moderately powerful enemy faction that I know I could easily squash, then it goes and takes one of their towns while the stronger hero just fiddles as his Rome burns (and is converted).  The main heroes are usually very "homebodyish" and will rarely venture out of their home territories too.

I was actually planning on embarking on some tests of the following parameters, available in DefaultStats (yes I have modded these myself, but to little avail as far as I can tell for now):


<AttackHumanAggressivityCoef>1.5</AttackHumanAggressivityCoef>
<AttackComputerAggressivityCoef>1.5</AttackComputerAggressivityCoef>
<CowardiceVersusHuman>0</CowardiceVersusHuman>
<CowardiceVersusComputer>0</CowardiceVersusComputer>
<RolesSearchNearMaxCost>700</RolesSearchNearMaxCost>
<RolesSearchFarMaxCost>32000</RolesSearchFarMaxCost>
<ArmyPowerCoefBonusPerHeroLevel>0.1</ArmyPowerCoefBonusPerHeroLevel>
<ValueOfTown>128000</ValueOfTown> <AvengerVersusHumanCoef>1.5</AvengerVersusHumanCoef> <AvengerVersusComputerCoef>1.5</AvengerVersusComputerCoef>


Note I believe that any saved games are "stuck" with said parameters, you need to start a brand new game after making your changes here.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 11, 2017 07:23 PM

Cobralord actually, reported positive results with those settings using vs computer at very low number.
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted October 11, 2017 07:42 PM

Seems like a good part of the history has been lost over the years.

The 3.1j AI you are playing with is basically a prototype I developed in 2008 originally based on the 3.0 vanilla. It has been released in 2010 with an upgrade to make it compatible with Win7, wide screen and 3.1.

Subsequently it was refactored to split the main executable and AI into two separate processes. What followed was some maintenance. It initially was highly aggressive with people complaining about it, which led to it being nerved. I can't remember which release it was, but theoretically the release should still be around.

But more significantly I never got around to build a strategic long range lookahead threat evaluation for 3.1j. De facto this makes the AI shortsighted to the number of lookahead days from the game settings. This is a serious shortcoming.

There are also a number of bugs:

- the Kamikaze (attack before seven days without castle) code is there but it is somehow not working because the computation is wrong by one day;

- if a second hero is stationed at the castle gate, the AI may not see the castle.

There are also issues with the Heroes 5.5 patch and scripts causing a desync between the game state and AI, which impairs its performance significantly.

The reason why I never got around to fix these issues is that I decided in 2011 to develop a much more advanced AI that doesn't suffer from these issues at all. It's main specs are:

- 42 day lookahead range with a dedicated strategic evaluation

- active strategic planning performed by the AI (a world first)

- wide range of hero behaviours and faction stances, from passive builder to highly aggressive warlord

- fast response time (akin to H3)

The work on this AI is mostly done. That is all inherent technical challenges have been solved. But considering the complexity of it all, I am still in the process of assembling the machine in its entirety. You guys know perfectly well how complex a strategy game TotE is. When I say on other boards Heroes V beats in complexity Skyrim and Civilization V, people just laugh. They have no idea.

And of course, it has been long years with some tough challenges in RL. It would have been great if someone with deep pockets like Notch could have helped out, but the reality is people who are well-off hardly feel the need to visit modding forums these days. It's only logical, if you have made it you can do so many other things in RL that do not require you to sit in front of a screen.

But I put every effort I can into it to finally get the AI ready for release and give us a truly upgraded Heroes V.

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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 11, 2017 09:49 PM

Quantomas said:


But more significantly I never got around to build a strategic long range lookahead threat evaluation for 3.1j. De facto this makes the AI shortsighted to the number of lookahead days from the game settings. This is a serious shortcoming.

There are also a number of bugs:

- the Kamikaze (attack before seven days without castle) code is there but it is somehow not working because the computation is wrong by one day;

- if a second hero is stationed at the castle gate, the AI may not see the castle.

There are also issues with the Heroes 5.5 patch and scripts causing a desync between the game state and AI, which impairs its performance significantly.


Well this explains alot of the behavior I've been noticing.  I may try to test previous builds and test out above paramaters.

@magnomagus  Is 5.5 tailored in some way to 3.1j or can I just drop a previous build over it and replace it's files?


Quote:

The reason why I never got around to fix these issues is that I decided in 2011 to develop a much more advanced AI that doesn't suffer from these issues at all. It's main specs are:

- 42 day lookahead range with a dedicated strategic evaluation

- active strategic planning performed by the AI (a world first)

- wide range of hero behaviours and faction stances, from passive builder to highly aggressive warlord

- fast response time (akin to H3)

The work on this AI is mostly done. That is all inherent technical challenges have been solved. But considering the complexity of it all, I am still in the process of assembling the machine in its entirety. You guys know perfectly well how complex a strategy game TotE is. When I say on other boards Heroes V beats in complexity Skyrim and Civilization V, people just laugh. They have no idea.

And of course, it has been long years with some tough challenges in RL. It would have been great if someone with deep pockets like Notch could have helped out, but the reality is people who are well-off hardly feel the need to visit modding forums these days. It's only logical, if you have made it you can do so many other things in RL that do not require you to sit in front of a screen.

But I put every effort I can into it to finally get the AI ready for release and give us a truly upgraded Heroes V.



Sounds great!  It's good to hear your still working on upgraded AI.  Must be a monumental task.  Hope your successful.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 11, 2017 11:37 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 00:03, 12 Oct 2017.

Quote:
@magnomagus  Is 5.5 tailored in some way to 3.1j or can I just drop a previous build over it and replace it's files?


No, firstly because it will crash immediately

Secondly, you wouldn't want to, I have tested some old versions in the past and I have read Quantomas changelists and there are many fixes between all a,b,c,d etc versions that are so important the game will fall apart without them anyway. Also you may need to play in 4:3

It is understandable how primitive the AI looks from Quantomas perspective, but it is still by far the best available right now. In next version I will set cowardice to 0 in all difficulty levels (see Elessars post), because cobralord reported still positive impact. if it doesn't work so be it.

Regardless, I recommend play with less AIs and team up all AIs against yourself, I always do this myself and leads to significant improvement, it makes the game very challenging and maximizes turn speed. Any calculation time or resources wasted resulting from AIs interfering which each other is just a waste of your real-life time. If the game drags on it is because you lost and you need to stop playing, lower difficulty and try again.

Another issue is that lots of people try to play 31j as if it is the heroes 3 AI, which is mostly played against 1 vs 7 on large map = lots of chaos, but H3 AI is also extremely unrealistic in buildup because of terrible quick combat and each AI in isolation is extremely easy to kill. So in my opinion 31j is still much better than that, but you need to treat it differently.

31j is best played against 1vs1, 1vs2, 1vs3 or 1vs4. I personally think any other setup (for singleplayer) is a waste of time.

The AI also performs best on random maps, because they are perfectly masked, don't contain any difficult paths, unused space and one-way portals. This is provided no player slots are closed, always use the amount of players an RMG-template was designed for.
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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 12, 2017 12:45 AM

magnomagus said:
Quote:

No, firstly because it will crash immediately


Ok ty.  I'll see what difference cowardice setting makes.

magnomagus said:
Quote:

Regardless, I recommend play with less AIs and team up all AIs against yourself, I always do this myself and leads to significant improvement, it makes the game very challenging and maximizes turn speed. Any calculation time or resources wasted resulting from AIs interfering which each other is just a waste of your real-life time.


I'm kind of the opposite in the way I enjoy heroes games.  I like huge maps with max AI's all FFA (or sometimes teams like 2v2v2v2, 4v4, etc) and the randomness of what player is taking out who and if one is pulling ahead.  I think I've only played 1 heroes map ever since Homm 1 where they were all against me.  Maybe i'll try some of these.

I was thinking of taking out all Town portal spells and seeing what effect that would have  I disabled the 5.5 one but not sure if it's possible to remove the adventure map spell Town Portal?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 12, 2017 01:16 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:21, 12 Oct 2017.

Quote:
I'm kind of the opposite in the way I enjoy heroes games.  I like huge maps with max AI's all FFA (or sometimes teams like 2v2v2v2, 4v4, etc) and the randomness of what player is taking out who and if one is pulling ahead.  I think I've only played 1 heroes map ever since Homm 1 where they were all against me.  Maybe i'll try some of these.


Actually afaik most people play regular H1-3 maps this way (including myself). But I never play with AI allies, since their behavior would always start to annoy me.

My point was this format is not well suited for 31j. Furthermore killing 7x 31j AIs can become very much impossible, since they are in isolation much more powerful than in the old games. You need to treat 31j AIs more as human players, would you play against 7 humans? of course not. One AI player wiped out your entire army like you said.

You can switch off Town portal in map editor, but don't touch the artifact section, artifacts can only be edited outside the editor.
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StrikerX
StrikerX


Known Hero
The Bringer of Rain
posted October 12, 2017 02:25 AM
Edited by StrikerX at 02:32, 12 Oct 2017.

magnomagus said:
Quote:
My point was this format is not well suited for 31j. Furthermore killing 7x 31j AIs can become very much impossible, since they are in isolation much more powerful than in the old games. You need to treat 31j AIs more as human players, would you play against 7 humans?


That's why I'm kinda frustrated with this version.  I like playing against 7 FFA but that's where the computer vrs computer plays a huge role in helping to offset them getting too insanely powerful.  But this doesn't happen in this version cause I end up with 7 insanely powerful ai's that I have to fight cause they avoid each other.  Pretty much I can expect heavy losses on any big AI army >= Challenging.  I'm still sorta new to HOmm 5 and especially 5.5.  Use to play a bit years ago but never as much as other homm games since my computer at the time was too slow for it.  I have turned off cheatmode for my current game and it's been better for me.  I think I was just used to doing Impossible setting on H3 and winning easily.

I agree though the AI is really good in nearly every aspect .  I just wish it had more computer vrs computer if I'm doing single player for a more immersive battles of factions fighting each other.  I like seeing that "Yellow player has been elimated message" and not knowing anything about what happened only that someone just got stronger

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Elessar
Elessar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 12, 2017 03:37 PM

StrikerX said:
I was thinking of taking out all Town portal spells and seeing what effect that would have  I disabled the 5.5 one but not sure if it's possible to remove the adventure map spell Town Portal?


It is (in the editor, just uncheck the box), but Stronghold faction heroes can still get it (and Instant Travel)-IF I build up their Shout guilds in the editor, since by default the AI doesn't build those buildings (again, not sure if that is a bug or feature).  After defeating one which had it, she showed up in my tavern later, and I was
able to get said spells via my Scholar...

As for me StrikerX, I want to see huge challenging AI empires, not 7 smaller passive enemy fiefdoms that I can then defeat easily in detail, allied against me or not.  But when my Ranger with his elf specialty + luck bonus + favored enemy bonus can kill,  in one shot, the 1000 Cyclopses I once gave my opponent via a cheat code (in my exasperation at a lack of a true challenge), then any attempts to make them more powerful in the current code is apparently futile.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 12, 2017 05:43 PM

@Elessar: Assuming that you already played on impossible level, with cheatmode set to 6, everybody allied against yourself and battle sites boosted to higher numbers. I' m wondering, exactly how large are those maps you are playing and how many AI players do you use on them?
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Elessar
Elessar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 16, 2017 02:15 AM

Impossible sized, either using the Ultima template or some (modified) custom maps.

In any event I just tested the AttackComputerAggressivityCoef...and it doesn't affect anything as far as I can tell.  I did discover that the AI won't attack an army more than 70% as strong as his tho.  BUT I've noticed in actual games on full-fledged maps (vs. the simple 2 hero 2 faction one I made to test with) that they seem reluctant to attack heroes that appear to be significantly weaker than that, which means in a complex multi-hero/multi-town map that some other factor(s) are affecting things.

In any event I have had fun with this game (I'm a Heroes vet going back 20 years to II), but simply will have to await Quantomas' new code.....

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 16, 2017 11:52 AM

I think low aggressivity between computer players was already deliberately build in on higher difficulty levels, asking for aggressivity between computer players is basically asking for an easier game, so to me this is entirely logical.

However in my opinion heroes 5 always lacked the option to set teams in the mainmenu to give more choice, although this is not really an AI issue.
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Elessar
Elessar


Adventuring Hero
posted October 17, 2017 05:42 PM

I still have no idea where you got this curious notion that low inter-AI aggression leads to "easier" games.  I mean we've had several other posters (i.e. not just me as a lone voice in the wilderness), most recently StrikerX, indicate how the more aggressive H3 AI (even if it cheated a bit) would lead to scary huge AI empires (esp. in WoG) that would be much more of a threat than the relatively small balkanized passive AI's we inevitably get using the current code.

In any event while I am idly curious about your next version, the game has ceased to be a challenge for me and I must await Quantomas' new AI to get me back into things.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted October 17, 2017 06:44 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 18:48, 17 Oct 2017.

Uhm, no, StrikerX just explained why this makes the game so difficult, he got his army wiped out by the first AI player and could not kill the others.

Those AI empires are really a fantasy, the H3 AI is jokingly easy unless  it uses astronomic cheats or is prepared with handwork in the editor.

In H55 it is theoretically possible an AI player can get very strong by killing another AI player first and then converting its town to get double growth, but it will require time to recover the losses and an experienced human player can easily profit from the temporary lack of troops to finish him off with much less effort, than was needed to kill the 2 AI players at full strength.

If you really want to make the game more challenging you should first and foremost start playing smaller maps. On a 4 player STD template with all AI against you, you are actually more likely to get in serious trouble than on an ultima template.
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