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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: New (unofficial) patch for ToE / AI mod
Thread: New (unofficial) patch for ToE / AI mod This thread is 42 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 38 39 40 41 42 · «PREV / NEXT»
dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted January 18, 2019 01:26 PM

What you say is true, this is why we use J in MMH55 as well.
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lokiseto
lokiseto


Hired Hero
posted May 09, 2019 05:20 PM

To shed some light on the AI process

To get things right, the mod contains the latest Quantomas AI (3.1j iirc)

Is there any way to switch the Quantomas AI process with the Original one, while still keeping the mod.

Surely the H5AI_31 version replaces the original version, so the reverse must somehow be possible?

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Empire_archer
Empire_archer

Tavern Dweller
posted July 14, 2019 10:57 AM

There will be a new version of this mod?
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted July 16, 2019 11:13 AM

See this post.

@lokiseto
I considered programming the AI upgrade in a way that you could select for each faction whether it uses the vanilla AI or the upgrade. But knowing how both work, it was clear that people would try it just once, have a good laugh, and never use the vanilla again. This could be mitigated somewhat by giving the vanilla AI its cheats back. But this wouldn't fundamentally change the situation, hence it did not make much sense to put lots of work into this.

The H5_AIProcess contains the upgraded AI, which was written from scratch, but the corresponding H5_AIadv requires it. So you can't freely mix different .exe files.

The leaving towns unprotected, or not capturing a town within the seven day limit are known bugs where somehow a turn counter is not updated correctly. There are also other bugs that we know about now, or in general the AI aggressivity could need better balancing, which are not difficult to fix one by one, but it doesn't make sense to go back to the development of the 31j code base.

The work is much better spend on the new AI, which for the most part should be as fast as H3, also not using any cheats, having not the seven day lookahead limit, and in general upgrading the game tactically and strategically.

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Empire_archer
Empire_archer

Tavern Dweller
posted August 06, 2019 01:15 PM

Quantomas said:
See this post.

@lokiseto
I considered programming the AI upgrade in a way that you could select for each faction whether it uses the vanilla AI or the upgrade. But knowing how both work, it was clear that people would try it just once, have a good laugh, and never use the vanilla again. This could be mitigated somewhat by giving the vanilla AI its cheats back. But this wouldn't fundamentally change the situation, hence it did not make much sense to put lots of work into this.

The H5_AIProcess contains the upgraded AI, which was written from scratch, but the corresponding H5_AIadv requires it. So you can't freely mix different .exe files.

The leaving towns unprotected, or not capturing a town within the seven day limit are known bugs where somehow a turn counter is not updated correctly. There are also other bugs that we know about now, or in general the AI aggressivity could need better balancing, which are not difficult to fix one by one, but it doesn't make sense to go back to the development of the 31j code base.

The work is much better spend on the new AI, which for the most part should be as fast as H3, also not using any cheats, having not the seven day lookahead limit, and in general upgrading the game tactically and strategically.


Maybe you can make a graphic patch?(new shadows, reflections, lighting).
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atheist
atheist


Hired Hero
posted August 07, 2019 12:11 AM

I have played some games with 31J Ai and I like that it doesn't cheat. But it playes very poor, for example I played a 1v7 Heritage (edited to set up the teams), and put the best heroes to the AIs, for extra challange. But Academy Havez didn't upgrade his gremlins in week 3 when I captured his city (I was green and he was yellow), and at the same time I could see in tavern that the Haven player still had archers in week 3, instead of marksmen.

Unfortunately standard vanilla AI is just better at the moment for players who want a challange, because 31j AI doesn't even attack, even if you set it with Agressive personality. It stays too close to his castle, doesn't upgrade units in time or upgrades useless ones - for example in the end of week 1 sylvan upgraded the lvl 2 but not lvl 1, leading to waste of wood and poor creeping.

Steps needed to fix the AI:

- improve build order so that they upgrade the correct units (i.e skeletons, not zombies, etc). Set high priority to Capitol and Castle.
- greatly increase aggression in all settings, right now it's unplayable.
- if possible, set high priority for skills like Triple Ballista and Flaming Arrows and First Aid for the AI.
- if possible make AI use at least 4 heroes when having 1 city, because just 3 is simply not enough to be competitive.
- Teach AI to use mentoring to make their secondary heroes more powerful.
- Teach AI to correctly use units in combat. For example Stalkers to creep Hunters and Druids and Blood Fury/Vampire/Sprite to kill infinite amount of Zombies.
- Make AI cast good spells. Right now they spam useless Weakness, suffering and other nonsense when they could cast damage spells.
- Improve AI usage of racial skills like Necromancy or Training. for example make Haven upgrade his peasants to archer or footman to priest.

Good luck!

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lokiseto
lokiseto


Hired Hero
posted October 09, 2019 01:33 PM

I'm not much of a reverse engineer

But if there are some menial tasks related to obfuscated code or anti-patterns that aren't too time-consuming, I'd be happy to chip in.

I'd be content to know if there is some sort of codebase of HoMM V, or anyone working on it.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 06, 2019 11:10 PM

@loksieto I would suggest joining MMH55 discord. Recently there is a concentration Heroes V developers in many areas - LUA scripting, reverse engineering, GUI etc.. Nothing major for the moment but ideas are cooking up.
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Footman
Footman

Tavern Dweller
posted February 02, 2020 07:17 PM
Edited by Footman at 19:18, 02 Feb 2020.

As far as I understand, the game source code is not in the public access, and so there will never be any graphics fixes?...

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted February 03, 2020 01:52 PM

What is achievable depends on modding skills, even without the source code. BTW are you on discord? what is your username?
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lokiseto
lokiseto


Hired Hero
posted March 23, 2020 12:54 PM
Edited by lokiseto at 12:56, 23 Mar 2020.

AI tweak

Hi @ll,

Here is a little tweaking of the mod, which shifts the behaviour of the AI towards
town defending to a more aggressive stance.

I simply merged parts of the original DefaultStats.xdb with the one of the Mod.

If you want to test the new AI behaviour or finetune any further
exchange with DefaultStats.xdb in the
/GameMechanics/RPGStats/ subfolder of the MMH55-Index.pak file.

The parameters which I estimate to be most important and were switched back are colored in Blue:
Quote:

<AttackHumanAggressivityCoef>1</AttackHumanAggressivityCoef>
<AttackComputerAggressivityCoef>0.25</AttackComputerAggressivityCoef>
<CowardiceVersusHuman>0.3</CowardiceVersusHuman>
<CowardiceVersusComputer>0</CowardiceVersusComputer>
<RolesSearchNearMaxCost>700</RolesSearchNearMaxCost>
<RolesSearchFarMaxCost>32000</RolesSearchFarMaxCost>
<ArmyPowerCoefBonusPerHeroLevel>0.1</ArmyPowerCoefBonusPerHeroLevel>
<ValueOfTown>640000</ValueOfTown>
<AvengerVersusHumanCoef>1</AvengerVersusHumanCoef>
<AvengerVersusComputerCoef>0</AvengerVersusComputerCoef>
<TownBuildPeriodInDays>1</TownBuildPeriodInDays>
<CheckTownsInDanger>1</CheckTownsInDanger>
<CheckHeroesDanger>1</CheckHeroesDanger>
<ConsiderGarrisoningHeroToImportantTown>1</ConsiderGarrisoningHeroToImportantTown>
<HireHeroesBase>1</HireHeroesBase>
<HireHeroesPerTown>4</HireHeroesPerTown>
<HireHeroesGlobalLimit>17</HireHeroesGlobalLimit>
<GrailSearchOpenPartsMinimum>3</GrailSearchOpenPartsMinimum>
<GrailSearchPercentMatchNeed>60</GrailSearchPercentMatchNeed>
<ThreatsMultiplierEnemys>1</ThreatsMultiplierEnemys>
<ThreatsMultiplierNeutral>2</ThreatsMultiplierNeutral>
<ThreatsMultiplierAllys>3</ThreatsMultiplierAllys>
<ThreatsMultiplierOurs>4</ThreatsMultiplierOurs>
<ThreatsDistanceInDays>4</ThreatsDistanceInDays>
<ThreatsAccComingLimit>15000</ThreatsAccComingLimit>
<ThreatsAccComingCalmingDivisor>1.125</ThreatsAccComingCalmingDivisor>
<ThreatsAccComingCoef>0.6</ThreatsAccComingCoef>
<ThreatsTownInDangerThreshold>500000</ThreatsTownInDangerThreshold>
<ThreatsTownProtectDistanceInDays>1</ThreatsTownProtectDistanceInDays>
<StrategicCaptureDistance>30</StrategicCaptureDistance>
<TownCreatureGrowthCoef>1</TownCreatureGrowthCoef>



Hope you all are having a great time playing.
We'll sure have the upcoming months.

Kudos and Thanks to Quantomas for the AI
Now the fine tuning can begin

PS: If anyone can shade some light on the parameter functionality in detail, be my guest

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted March 23, 2020 03:26 PM

Hello Lokiseto,

First, I read your messages at Discord, but all I could say is that the next upgrade will fix the issues, which in context of the long time this work took would hardly be helpful.

But with this said, before the big release of the next-gen AI (aka 3.2), there will be an improved maintenance release of what is the 3.1j AI.

In fact it is a major upgrade that will fix the heroes-without-a-town-not-trying-to-capture-a-castle issue, as well as restore the AI aggressivity that was a feature of the early releases (think pretty aggressive). Plus, what is probably the biggest upgrade, the AI will monitor how the human players battle against neutral monsters and adapt accordingly. I.e. it will mirror their performance. In principle the new AI should be capable of playing even against the ultra strong monsters on maps like Deadly Environment.

Once it is ready, I will announce where we will commune to test and tweak the AI. I can't give you an ETA, but there isn't much left to do before tests can commence.

Q

P.S.
The AI doesn't use the DefaultStab.xdb parameters. It computes its own values for towns and opposition assessment, mostly based on lookahead, which will also be vastly improved in the upcoming release.


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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted April 07, 2020 01:41 PM

Hey Quantomas,

I guess you'll list all the changes when it's released, but does it include certain things like actually attacking summoned units at appropriate times (rather than just letting them block their shooters), or pathing in the water and use of whirlpools?  That is - the AI will often use a whirlpool once or twice in a turn, then end the turn, even though it has 90% of its movement still remaining.  Little things like these really trash the AI's potential.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted April 07, 2020 02:29 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 14:31, 07 Apr 2020.

Travel across water was experimental in the 2011 release (3.1j). If you work on a mammoth project alone, you always have to focus on what is most urgent.

Also, keep in mind that if you play with the MMH55 mod it breaks the lookahead and has the AI do irrational things.

Anyway, the upcoming AI has an entirely new improved mechanic for all things ship related. I will post where we are going to test it properly, once it is done.

In addition the upgraded AI will feature a vastly enhanced lookahead, effectively a scouting extension that allows the AI heroes to plan ahead for a large number of turns. That informs the AI on what to spend movepoints.

Combat AI upgrades will come later.

I am currently testing the build that will be released, so the implementation is mostly done. It's basic testing first, verifying that each of the AI's systems, like pathfinding, event sequencing, lookahead, area segmentation, event valuation and a lot more do what they are supposed to do. Before you ask, you can't help with that as this requires dedicated debugging facilities and analyzing what the code does in detail. Once it's playable, I will share.

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted April 11, 2020 06:47 PM

Quantomas said:
Travel across water was experimental in the 2011 release (3.1j). If you work on a mammoth project alone, you always have to focus on what is most urgent.

Also, keep in mind that if you play with the MMH55 mod it breaks the lookahead and has the AI do irrational things.

Anyway, the upcoming AI has an entirely new improved mechanic for all things ship related. I will post where we are going to test it properly, once it is done.

In addition the upgraded AI will feature a vastly enhanced lookahead, effectively a scouting extension that allows the AI heroes to plan ahead for a large number of turns. That informs the AI on what to spend movepoints.

Combat AI upgrades will come later.

I am currently testing the build that will be released, so the implementation is mostly done. It's basic testing first, verifying that each of the AI's systems, like pathfinding, event sequencing, lookahead, area segmentation, event valuation and a lot more do what they are supposed to do. Before you ask, you can't help with that as this requires dedicated debugging facilities and analyzing what the code does in detail. Once it's playable, I will share.


Hi Quantomas,

I wasn't claiming anything about your abilities or about whether you made the project alone or not for 3.1j - it was merely a question of how far the current project is going to go, that's all.     I'm sure lots of us have lots of questions about all kinds of particular items where the AI fails, and I suppose that - apart from just making a big list of them - knowing the potential capacity is useful.

I didn't know that MMH55 broke the lookahead AI.  Will it still be broken with MMH55 with the upcoming upgrade?  What specifically causes the breaking?  I myself play without governance, without town transformations, with town gate, and I removed dimension door, town portal, and summon creature from all my games (as far as I'm concerned, HoMM isn't HoMM when teleportation is involved...pathing is what makes the game interesting):  my guess is such things are the sorts of things that complicate the AIs life as well (hence why my fights with the AI seem better with these removals) - do you suppose the AI would do better without all the options offered by teleportation, or worse?


Anyways that's it for me for now...when it's ready for testing I'd be happy to try it out and see what happens.  Thanks for what you're doing and take care,
-G

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted April 13, 2020 03:17 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 15:17, 13 Apr 2020.

Gidoza said:

I myself play without governance, without town transformations, with town gate, and I removed dimension door, town portal, and summon creature from all my games (as far as I'm concerned, HoMM isn't HoMM when teleportation is involved...pathing is what makes the game interesting):


Such features diminish the strategy game. I.e. they replace the rules for what is at its core a very good strategy game by giving dominance to special mechanics.

For example in Heroes III, with expert Earth Magic you can teleport to all your towns at will without significant costs. Once you can do that, your main hero rules the map, practically able to amass troops very quickly and able to defend any of your castles, ambushing enemy mains and so on. The same goes for expert Air Magic and dimension door.

Naturally, this ruins the game because you can exploit it. Now, if the AI could use this mechanic competently, which requires a good lookahead to infer what to do, balance would be restored. This is technically true for all powerful features. If you want a strategy game not only by name or claim, the development of features and AI have to go hand-in-hand.

However, the fact remains, even if H3 could handle this competently, the strategy game would still be diminished. The endgame would technically become a game of who does better in a game of townportal and dimension door.

In that sense you could say Heroes II is a better game than Heroes III.

Still, the situation isn't this simple, because if you look at the HotA campaign, they solved it by taking care to exclude these features from their maps.

Heroes V tackled the issue by reducing the townportal spell's power while increasing its costs. But then they introduced summon creatures and caravans between towns that shipped entire weeks worth of recruits. Such features invariably alter the nature of a game.

We aren't actually graced with many good strategy games, so I am always sad to see good opportunities wasted or a game ruined by compromises.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2020 05:17 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 17:22, 13 Apr 2020.

Quantomas said:
Gidoza said:

I myself play without governance, without town transformations, without town gate, and I removed dimension door, town portal, and summon creature from all my games (as far as I'm concerned, HoMM isn't HoMM when teleportation is involved...pathing is what makes the game interesting):


Such features diminish the strategy game. I.e. they replace the rules for what is at its core a very good strategy game by giving dominance to special mechanics.

For example in Heroes III, with expert Earth Magic you can teleport to all your towns at will without significant costs. Once you can do that, your main hero rules the map, practically able to amass troops very quickly and able to defend any of your castles, ambushing enemy mains and so on. The same goes for expert Air Magic and dimension door.

Naturally, this ruins the game because you can exploit it. Now, if the AI could use this mechanic competently, which requires a good lookahead to infer what to do, balance would be restored. This is technically true for all powerful features. If you want a strategy game not only by name or claim, the development of features and AI have to go hand-in-hand.

However, the fact remains, even if H3 could handle this competently, the strategy game would still be diminished. The endgame would technically become a game of who does better in a game of townportal and dimension door.

In that sense you could say Heroes II is a better game than Heroes III.

Still, the situation isn't this simple, because if you look at the HotA campaign, they solved it by taking care to exclude these features from their maps.

Heroes V tackled the issue by reducing the townportal spell's power while increasing its costs. But then they introduced summon creatures and caravans between towns that shipped entire weeks worth of recruits. Such features invariably alter the nature of a game.

We aren't actually graced with many good strategy games, so I am always sad to see good opportunities wasted or a game ruined by compromises.



If you're willing, I think there's a very good discussion to have here that ought to have been had a long time ago.

My question is - why is there an opportunity wasted here in a good strategy game?  Absolutely nothing prevents us from removing Town Gate, Town Portal, Summon Creatures, etc...from this game.

Let me be clear - I didn't remove them merely because of balance issues.  The two most clear-cut balance issues are 1. The AI can't use it as well as the human player can, and 2. whoever gets it first has a massive advantage - and both these reasons are good enough reasons to remove these spells without any further argument if you ask me.  But the actual reason I removed them is because - as best as I can phrase it - they are not in the spirit of the game.  What makes HoMM interesting is your pathing choices.  Depending on how a map is structured (and this goes to say something for player-made hand-crafted map design), you will only have so many places you can go; you need to consider how far you are from your town(s), where your opponents are, what goodies there are around to pick up, how far you want to adventure away (and consequently whether to have a secondary hero deliver troops), and so on.  Spells like Town Portal take all these interesting decisions and throw them out the window.  What makes HoMM a strategy game is *NOT* having Town Portal, *NOT* having Town Gate, and *NOT* having town transformations and governance, etc...

What's that quote?

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

I love HoMM5.5, but my lament is that it has failed miserably in the above quote.  HoMM5 needed some balancing and tweaks and a refined AI, and it needed some features removed...it doesn't need a whole bunch more unnecessary things (which, let me be clear - there's nothing wrong with making a mod; let's just not claim that it is pie in the sky from heaven - it isn't).  If you ask me, your job in making an AI that is competent and excellent is been burdened and dragged in the mud due to attending to a bunch of game features that should never have been there in the first place.  Let's be honest - the use of Dimension Door is like an addiction: it's not healthy.  Why not attend your AI design to a schema of the game that doesn't have all the strategy sucked out of it?  It'll make your life easier, and quite frankly it's in all our benefits to play a version of Heroes 5 that has all the terrible soul and strategy-sucking features taken out of it.


EDIT:  And since you mentioned it - I played Heroes III as well, and made a point of removing Town Portal and Dimension Door there as well.  I think I removed Resurrection as well.  Instantly, the game was so much better and the AI was much more of a challenge.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted April 13, 2020 08:13 PM

@Gidoza

Removing even the fake TP from H5 and Summon Creatures kills the game. And I even wanted the true, H3 TP in H5...

Same for H3. No Resurrection, no TP at all... kills the game again.

And those games are not black on white, the path-ing being what defines the game: it's much more and simply can't be expressed through words unless I start typing for half an hour.

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2020 09:26 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 21:38, 13 Apr 2020.

FirePaladin said:
@Gidoza

Removing even the fake TP from H5 and Summon Creatures kills the game. And I even wanted the true, H3 TP in H5...

Same for H3. No Resurrection, no TP at all... kills the game again.

And those games are not black on white, the path-ing being what defines the game: it's much more and simply can't be expressed through words unless I start typing for half an hour.


Nonsense.  Total and utter nonsense.  How, exactly, does taking away Summon Creatures kill the game?  You now need to make more of an effort to have a supply line?  You can't make extended journeys anymore and forget about the idea of ever returning to the home town?  It might actually matter if your opponent gets in between your current location and your home town?  Quite the opposite - Summon Creatures *is* what kills the game by making the concepts of pathing and planning lame and uninteresting.

And Quantomas hit the mark, bullseye when talking about TP in Heroes 3: it takes a game that is otherwise about careful planning, pathing, and estimation, and reduces it to a Deus Ex Machina because your Mage Guild happened to draw TP and your opponent's didn't, or your opponent is an AI who can't use the ability nearly as well as you can.  (And by the way - there's a reason that spells like this, including Dimension Door and Fly, are banned in every Heroes III tournament of which I am aware - but I suppose all those tournaments are just meaningless and invalid because the tourney leaders ruined the game by removing all the spells critical to the game.)

I don't even remember how many H3 games I played where between my ability to use Resurrection and use TP to go to my towns and bolster my forces at a whim, I could encounter all my opponents and regularly go an entire game without losing a single unit, save in the first few turns of the game.  Is that your idea of what defines the game?  Facing an opponent who just has a King while you start with all 8 pawns, both rooks, both bishops, both knights, the queen, along with your king?  Just how much of an advantage do you want?

No - I simply feel sad for you, that what counts for a "good strategy game" amounts to little more than a total dominance victory that offers no challenge.  When I remove Resurrection from the game, suddenly I actually lose troops.  I can't count on my God Mode to lead me to victory and know that for certain.  And thank God indeed - because that kind of victory that is so easy to accomplish is just plain BORING!

There's plenty of games you can play where there's all kinds of little mechanics that lean in your favour or are just plain unbalanced in the first place if you want to play games that are effortless and sterile - if it were a StarCraft map, we would just called that map "rigged."  If that's the kind of game you want, by all means play them - don't ruin HoMM by endlessly promoting this nonsense and making it mainstream, demolishing anything rich that could exist.  By all means, make your half-hour post: I have 25+ years of experience playing and have tried every little angle that there is in HoMM because of wanting to have a challenge.  You're free to play however you like - and that's the blessing of modding - but I'll tell you right now that pushing the Resurrection, TP, and DD line and still calling HoMM "strategic," "deep," or even "a game" is an angle for which I will do nothing less than simply laugh at you.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted April 13, 2020 09:32 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 21:41, 13 Apr 2020.

@Gidoza

I already have to think and plan enough in real life (also enough challenges). Do I need this in a game I play to relax? No. Simple as that. I don't want never-ending chains of heroes, etc. which I have to plan for the upcoming in-game month.

Edit: Ok, I understand your suggestions on smaller maps, but on bigger maps (those which I usually play), that's another story.

Edit 2: I don't mean effortless, but not annoying either.

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