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| Thread: Patch 1.8 in the making - provisional release notes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2012 09:42 AM |
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Dear JJ, could I just give my opinion in public without more comment?
I think we have already discussed enough on the VIP forum  but well...
Since we are not discussing religion or love, you should have a reason for an opinion, shouldn't you? (And USUALLY, and that's what I know from the past, you have rather good reason.)
Now, I seem to remember that it has something to do with the unit's looks and description, and, sure, just looking at that you may want to reduce movement to 4 or even 3 and maybe give a no melee penalty.
However: look at the unit: it has a RANGED MAGIC sttack that leeches the Mana as secondary effect. Since you would give NMP for its looks (tentacles and so on), you'd give it on MIGHT (the way it iss now), which means, you have a usually 50% magic attack with special effect plus a 100% might attack.
This is quite bad for the might/magic faction balance on one hand, and since the usual way to deal with the unit would be to ignore it first (if they are part of a larger army) or deal with it from afar, since everyone has capable units to deal with them without going into melee, the logical consequence would be to increase the leech percentage. You'd so that to increase the pressure for the opposition to deal with them and not ignore them, but either you CAN ignore them safely for some time OR you CAN'T, meaning that the percentage is either ok or TOO high.
No range penalty, on the other hand, sounds ok, but a big unit is easy to block (Liches in H5 are an example) and not to cover, and with damage halved to Might damage without special effect the unit becomes useless fast.
Another thing is the faction character: Inferno is a faction in which all units are one-man armies, so-to-speak. Every unit can fight alone and for themselves (pretty in keeping with the faction character), which means, the mobile shooter ability is the right one in every respect except unit looks-and-feel.
For this the ability should have been slightly ddifferent from that of the Centaurs - for example allowing movement only before shooting, but not after -, but you could still limit the ability, by an overall reduction of movement for the unit, to 4 or even 3.
So all things considered, I find that opinion quite ... irrational, if you know what I mean and after all those discussion, since it wouldn't gain for Inferno, so I wonder about that.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 06, 2012 09:52 AM |
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A big shooter is rather easy to block quickly no matter if it's "mobile" or not. And they still do pathetic damage. All in all, the Breeders remain in the end of my list of recruitable creatures - no good for creeping, no good for early encounters, moderately useful only in late battles but - again - only if they are in very large numbers. I honestly can't see who will pick them before any other Inferno creature.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 06, 2012 10:11 AM |
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A big shooter is rather easy to block quickly no matter if it's "mobile" or not. And they still do pathetic damage. All in all, the Breeders remain in the end of my list of recruitable creatures - no good for creeping, no good for early encounters, moderately useful only in late battles but - again - only if they are in very large numbers. I honestly can't see who will pick them before any other Inferno creature.
i will pick them along with succubi for my magic hero. and all the arguments here lead to this! the MOTHER breeders need full range of another perk,other than incompatible mobile shooter! and yes the thing(retaliating in might) that they did for succubi and breeders is just awful:/
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 06, 2012 12:51 PM |
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I honestly can't see who will pick them before any other Inferno creature.
Yeah, maybe only Maniacs are less useful sometimes, because of their low speed. I think their main role is to be something that is not very common for an archer - a tank archer! You must say, they can take quite a punch. Although it's main role is to shoot, don't forget about gating. Throwing in a Breeder close to enemy units will possibly attract some of his units and make the Breeder tank some damage (as I said their quite sturdy), especially because some units like Cerberi are not fit for such a role. In case of other units like Tormentors, those are not suited to be tanks, they're more useful as additional offensive units. Of course strategically it's better to use Ravagers or Pit Lords as tanks, but it's not always possible to use or gate them in the flow of battle. But truth be told, Breeders should get a little damage boost...
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 06, 2012 12:56 PM |
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Breeders can't take more punch than a regular Elite creature, including the shooters, so I guess you're deceived by their size (psycho stuff). As for Gating them - that's viable if they are a lot and like I said this may happen in a late game scenario - when you'll probably have all of your creatures available anyway - but most of the time they are very poor substitutes for any other Inferno creature, even with a Magic hero.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 06, 2012 02:06 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:12, 06 Oct 2012.
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Quote:
Breeders can't take more punch than a regular Elite creature
Yeah, but we're talking about their role in the Inferno army, not in comparison to different Elites (where you don't have gating). I agree that Breeders are not a well-designed unit stat-wise. I'm only telling you that I can find some use for them, and they're still archers, so because of this, they are sometimes more useful then slow Maniacs or Tormentors (don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about close combat, I'm talking about battles in which you soften your enemies ranks before they can even get to you)...
By the way, if it's something that Heroes 6 does wrong imo it's how it discourages you from playing with mixed armies. I don't remember if there was any time when I played with units other then my current faction's...
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 06, 2012 02:20 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Breeders can't take more punch than a regular Elite creature
Yeah, but we're talking about their role in the Inferno army, not in comparison to different Elites (where you don't have gating). I agree that Breeders are not a well-designed unit stat-wise. I'm only telling you that I can find some use for them, and they're still archers, so because of this, they are sometimes more useful then slow Maniacs or Tormentors (don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about close combat, I'm talking about battles in which you soften your enemies ranks before they can even get to you)...
will i sound like a broken record if i say that full range would do wonders for the breeders? they are the second and last magic unit in inferno.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2012 03:10 PM |
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will i sound like a broken record if i say that full range would do wonders for the breeders?
Yes. 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted October 06, 2012 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, but we're talking about their role in the Inferno army, not in comparison to different Elites (where you don't have gating). I agree that Breeders are not a well-designed unit stat-wise. I'm only telling you that I can find some use for them, and they're still archers, so because of this, they are sometimes more useful then slow Maniacs or Tormentors (don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about close combat, I'm talking about battles in which you soften your enemies ranks before they can even get to you)...
They are not tough even by Inferno's standards where all creatures can be Gated (provided that you have the respective level of the skill) and the can't "soften" almost anything because of their low damage + range penalty combo, i.e. even with a Magic hero you won't turn them into adequate ranged damage dealers and they are twice as useless with a Might hero.
All in all, if it is so painful to add no range penalty for them - and I agree that there are too many shooters without such penalty - they could be given some AoE attack with 50-100% damage to the adjacent creatures. And if this is considered too strong for some reason (I don't think it will be), it can be made to damage adjacent friendlies as well.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 06, 2012 09:42 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 21:43, 06 Oct 2012.
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So the conclusion is simple. Make Breeders stronger! Elvin, JJ do your job  (request based on your contribution in improving the game so far)
By the way, the Breeders may somewhat be a spiritual successor to the H4 Venom Spawns. And if I think about what a ,,powerhouse'' those were it makes me smile 
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NilartPax
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 06, 2012 09:57 PM |
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any word on how to ask for other changes? I haven't had much luck on the official heroes 6 forums.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2012 10:24 PM |
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The Breeder "analysis" is very sloppy and is disregarding too many factors.
Please PLAY the game with the new patch first.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 06, 2012 11:49 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 23:51, 06 Oct 2012.
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Please PLAY the game with the new patch first.
Do you mean 1.8? If so that's not physically possible at the moment. And even so I don't see any new things in patch notes. Changes were introduced in patch 1.7 and those are mobile shooter and a lot of nerfing...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2012 11:53 PM |
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it would be more sense if the breeders had mobile shooter AND teleport
because having them run around on the battlefield is ridiculous
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2012 12:12 AM |
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What are you talking anout now? Breeders? Or Moms? You really want to tell anyone that MOMS are not ok?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 07, 2012 12:16 AM |
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Xerox's sense of irony may be at work here
@blob2
JJ does refer to 1.7, I don'r recall further breeder balancing for 1.8. And they are pretty alright as they are now.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2012 10:18 AM |
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I do refer to 1.8, because the whole structure of the game is different.
The whole purpose of the patch is to give the players more options to think about. It is true that Breeders are an awkward unit. But that is a faction trait. All Inferno units have something awkward - suboptimal unit characteristics that could be different, synergetically. For example, Succubi are a full range high damage single square magic shooter that can fly and has speed 6 plus an ability that deals back melee damage. So while the characteristics "full range high damage single square" make them a unit worth guarding, the others cry "I can fight solo" (I'm a fast flyer, and anyone that comes near gets burned). Awkward. (It would be better for synergy, if Succubi where slower and Maniacs faster, for example).
So Breeders are an awkward unit as well. They are not a unit that will or can be guarded, but they can take care of themselves, and that is in full keeping with the Inferno faction characteristics.
Also, you maybe should look at the dwelling PRICES and keep in mind the growth change from 3/5 to 4/5 (and also, even though that's of course very situational and not that important, the growth change of outside Elite dwellings from 2/2/3 to 1/1/2).
After a comparison and some thinking everyone should be able to see that going for Breeders has become a serious OPTION, and very probably the best one, when playing a magic hero.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2012 10:43 AM |
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I don't get what as weird about my post?
Having a BIG, SLOW, FAT, MAGICAL creature that eats mana teleport around instead of run around makes a lot more sense.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2012 11:03 AM |
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You are using Asha's logic here. ORDER. We are talking about Urgash, however, CHAOS, so a unit that LOOKS fat and slow, but is surprisingly agile is - for me - fine. It seems pretty in-keeping with Chaos and Luck to have unit characteristics look like someone rolled a couple of dice to pair units and traits.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2012 11:15 AM |
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I think it's more chaotic if it keeps teleport/jump around on the battlefield, shooting Imps in peoples' faces.
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