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| Thread: Does progress really exist? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 24, 2014 09:00 PM |
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Well, I don't think Christianity grew using only peaceful means either. But I won't talk like Christianity and Islam as the exact same either. What would be the odds of that? ...
A book concerning genocide of millions, without any word twists, propaganda, lies, ommited information and half truths would be a book about victims, purely victims, victims without anything to reproach beforehand, so ... A book about the genocide of American Indians could very well fit that description, considering the short time between the visit of Spanish conquistadors and their sudden drop in numbers, and the total lack of "interactions" beforehand.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 24, 2014 09:01 PM |
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There were no such numbers during the times of the crusades, neither the crusades nor the spread of Islam are genocide, they are medieval conquest, so yes, a lot of violance naturally occured.
I am not angry btw. However, if you dont think the book you didnt read takes things in black and white, why do you object to it like it does, kind of baffles me.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 24, 2014 09:13 PM |
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I dont like the book in itself ; but find it ok when tossed in the context of victors writing history, and the crusade story surely being told inaccurately.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 24, 2014 10:55 PM |
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Maybe you could actually try reading the book before making such assumptions...?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 01:01 AM |
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xerox said:
Maybe you could actually try reading the book before making such assumptions...?
what's the point? religious books are filled to the brim with propaganda, outright lies, and misinterpretations, anyway.
come to think of it, most history books are, as well.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 25, 2014 01:56 AM |
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That's not true. Since last century, academical history books are written with a scientific method and there are many works, sometimes outside the academy too, which cant be further from propaganda. Both of you are rationalizing your own laziness. One can simply say I'm not much into reading, it's not a crime. Other than that, you can come up with a hundred excuses about why not to do anything but complaining about the content of books you dont read is nothing less than ridiculous.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 02:06 AM |
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artu said:
That's not true. Since last century, academical history books are written with a scientific method and there are many works, sometimes outside the academy too, which cant be further from propaganda. Both of you are rationalizing your own laziness. One can simply say I'm not much into reading, it's not a crime. Other than that, you can come up with a hundred excuses about why not to do anything but complaining about the content of books you dont read is nothing less than ridiculous.
i'm not rationalizing any laziness. i don't have to rationalize anything, because it doesn't bother me whatsoever to not give a **** about anything anyone other than myself cares about.
so PPppPPPPpppppppPPPPPP. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 25, 2014 02:13 AM |
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They are called psychological defense mechanisms for a reason, you dont get to be aware of them while resorting to them. Somebody not caring at all wouldn't have produced a completely made up excuse about most history books being only propaganda. And I'm quite sure, even you are aware of how insecure you can get sometimes.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 02:22 AM |
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artu said:
They are called psychological defense mechanisms for a reason, you dont get to be aware of them while resorting to them. Somebody not caring at all wouldn't have produced a completely made up excuse about most history books being only propaganda. And I'm quite sure, even you are aware of how insecure you can get sometimes.
i didn't say they were ONLY propaganda. i SAID that they were also outright lies and misinterpretations, as well. if you read my post like you claim to read books, you would have more insight. this is why i find it hard to identify with people like you. your interpretations of "reality" greatly differ from mine.
you know, the people who are most insecure seem to really care how they are presented to others. would you say that that is one of my traits, or one of yours, artu? notice that, while i am intelligent, i don't overly strive to represent myself as such, nearly non-stop. mostly the opposite, i prefer to play the fool. at this point, it's pretty obvious who is insecure. (hint: it's not me.)
but regardless, we're getting off-topic. how about you go back to blah blah blah, and i'll go back to yackety shmackety? 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 25, 2014 02:26 AM |
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And this one is called projection.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 02:34 AM |
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lol, so you're a psychologist now, are you? you're so wise. you're a lot like the books you read so that you think you're more intelligent than everyone else, artu. full of ****. try living outside of what you think defines knowledge, you might come to an understanding that will greatly benefit you.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 25, 2014 02:52 AM |
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Your references are invalid. I never said anything about myself being this or that, it's you who's making that up again. I simply pointed out generalizing a whole genre of books as BS even without reading them is the real BS. Now, if you are intelligent as you claim, you have to admit that, to accuse some books of being propaganda and lies, you have to read the ones that aren't. Otherwise, there'd be no way for you to specify the ones that are propaganda are actually propaganda, you'd have to be omniscient without actually learning anything. Wouldnt that be nice! Unfortunately, that's not the way it works. Pick a book, read it, say it's a bad book because of what it says here and there, then your position will be about an actual subject instead of how everything is a lie anyway.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 03:08 AM |
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artu said:
Your references are invalid. I never said anything about myself being this or that, it's you who's making that up again. I simply pointed out generalizing a whole genre of books as BS even without reading them is the real BS. Now, if you are intelligent as you claim, you have to admit that, to accuse some books of being propaganda and lies, you have to read the ones that aren't. Otherwise, there'd be no way for you to specify the ones that are propaganda are actually propaganda, you'd have to be omniscient without actually learning anything. Wouldnt that be nice! Unfortunately, that's not the way it works. Pick a book, read it, say it's a bad book because of what it says here and there, then your position will be about an actual subject instead of how everything is a lie anyway.
i didn't say everything was a lie, man. here is what i said:
fred79 said:
religious books are filled to the brim with propaganda, outright lies, and misinterpretations, anyway.
come to think of it, most history books are, as well.
don't tell me you are actually defending religious books as actual knowledge, artu. trying to find real knowledge in any book even covering religion(other than how religion was used to rule over others, or kill mass quantities of people for centuries) is an exercise in futility. anyone can speculate all they want, and read any historical texts all they want, and still not find the truth in anything they read on the subject.
your endearment towards what you think of as actual knowledge, and how you throw yourself under the bus to defend it, both worries me, and makes me want to give you a hug, and tell you it'll be ok, artu.
think about this for a second: the origin of religion. each religion claims a different thing, and says that, above all else, THEIR religion is the ONE religion to follow. now, that is what all of this branches off of. from that starting point, how could you possibly be interested in what another's interpretations of religion are? i don't find the subject fascinating at all. it can be equated with sleazy tabloids, meant to exploit others for personal gain.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 03:30 AM |
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Well, I like to speak my mind and then see if my intuition is right. I dont mind being wrong once in a while, but the more I try, the more often my intuition is right? A book about "the crusades from the arab eyes" by some guy with an arabic name. Kind of obvious.
Easy to guess what s in it. But why not show us your hand now? Instead of bringing psychology terms, why not tell us what's in it? And more importantly, is it a complete information or more like details from narrowed point of views?
I mean, you both could tell us more than " you didn't read it".
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 25, 2014 03:33 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:38, 25 Feb 2014.
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We are not talking about "holy texts" but historical studies. That is beyond obvious by context: xerox suggests kanya to read Crusades through Arab Eyes and you ask what's the point referring to THAT. Now, I did read that book, it's not propaganda, on the contrary, it displays how alliances occur between Muslim and Christian powers according to political benefit and struggle for power even during the crusades. Or take the book I suggested and gave the PDF link to, in the religion thread, about the historicity of Jesus. It's a book with a valid method and proper research. So
Quote:
how could you possibly be interested in what another's interpretations of religion are?
Actually, without secular research and valid examination of that social phenomenon, almost everybody would end up believing in those myths, which was the case before Enligtenment. It wasnt because everybody was a moron, there wasnt any proper material that objected to the myth.
But that's beside the point, I never was one of the people who looked down on people who didnt read, to me, some people may not be into it, just like I'm not into cars or football. Yet, there are some subjects you cant have a reasonable argument without related literacy. You cant know about the crusades "from experience" or by intuition. You have to read some stuff about it, and reading is just like anything else, the more experience you have, the more you learn to distinguish the good stuff from the bad, you learn to be selective, to filter things out. That's the way to avoid " propaganda, outright lies, and misinterpretations" not the opposite.
@kanya
Quote:
A book about "the crusades from the arab eyes" by some guy with an arabic name.
I'll be careful to read people with anglo-saxon heritage from now on! There is even his CV quoted in this thread... Some Arab guy... sigh...
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 03:58 AM |
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Meh. I've derailed this thread enough, and asked to be given a resume enough as well. For someone that read the book you seem determined to avoid speaking of it's core content but yeah, unless given a resume of it, I will stop posting about this particular subject, sorry!.
Btw I heard hitler was one eight jewish or something.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 04:04 AM |
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this forums shows how it is a great idea to instrumentalize religions to divide people and divert them from more crucial issue which would actually bring them together.
for example, instrumentalization of religions is the favourite sport of our political elites. blaming musulman immigration. promoting gay families to provoke catholics. pretending there is a rise of antisemitism... and they always find a lot of people to fall for it.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 04:05 AM |
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kayna said:
I dont mind being wrong once in a while, but the more I try, the more often my intuition is right? A book about "the crusades from the arab eyes" by some guy with an arabic name. Kind of obvious.
You're not serious, I hope.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2014 04:10 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 04:12, 25 Feb 2014.
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artu said:
We are not talking about "holy texts" but historical studies. That is beyond obvious by context: xerox suggests kanya to read Crusades through Arab Eyes and you ask what's the point referring to THAT.
holy texts, historical studies, it's all the same, more or less, to me. interpretations of interpretations of interpretations. apply human error to that, and you get wild speculation. i was watching a "historical" take on "billy the kid", and saw the same thing. dramatization, what people thought happened, etc. people who focus on history, or try to tell it or write about it, are to me, like little kids playing barbie or gi joe. sure, they have barbie or gi joe in their hands, but everything else is whatever they want it to be. millions of different scenarios, everyone has their own take, nothing is concrete. each voice will say something slightly different. each reader will take away something different. how many people have covered history? how many authors? now, how many people have covered religion? that's the equivalent of playing barbie while you're schizophrenic. and it's GROWN, RELATIVELY SANE ADULTS doing this.
artu said:
Now, I did read that book, it's not propaganda, on the contrary, it displays how alliances occur between Muslim and Christian powers according to political benefit and struggle for power even during the crusades. Or take the book I suggested and gave the PDF link to, in the religion thread, about the historicity of Jesus. It's a book with a valid method and proper research.
this is what i'm talking about, artu. it's your faith that what was researched was fact, and from that, stems more "fact".
**** it, what's the point. you'll never get what i'm saying. i'm done with this conversation, it's as pointless as interpretations on interpretations. it's leading literally nowhere, and i am not really emotionally invested enough to continue. it's very tiring, facing this kind of thinking. it's as close-minded, unreasoning, and illogical as the most fervent of bible-belt preachers.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 25, 2014 04:26 AM |
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@fred
There are methods starting with giving proper references and using only first hand historical documents as your resource that distinguishes a valid history book from a Hollywood take on Billy the Kid. Besides, when they fictionalize stuff, they mention it.
@kanya
The core content is the crusades
You must realize that a crusade is not something like this: You put together a gaint army in the Vatican and march straight to Jerusalem. We are talking about a great distance with medieval cities that are also fortresses. So, you surround these cities, try to occupy them over the years, declaring your own lordship. Also note that, the writer is not just a researcher but a first class novelist, so his narrative is awesome. Game of Thrones can kiss my ass, the alliences (or betrayals) between the cities are breath taking. They have to feed armies, sometimes organize them from scratch and for that they have to find Muslim allies who has conflict of interest with other Muslim feudal lords etc etc. What can be surprising to a naive Western reader can be the fact that, naturally, the Muslim citizens in those cities were identifying the occupiers as the barbarians while the orthodox Western rethoric is usually crusades being against barbarians. But that was nothing new for me, what captured me was the amount of political and military detail displayed and for that, you'd actually have to read the book.
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