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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2013 03:22 PM |
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If you have unlimited ice cream, it doesn't mean you have to eat it every day. And if you want to buy a cone, you can do that if you want to.
Even small hardships are bad.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 03:30 PM |
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mvassilev said:
And if you want to buy a cone, you can do that if you want to.
That wont be the same if you have unlimited ice-cream. Ever read Lacan? The pleasure is in the game, not the trophy. Agree with him or not JJ is talking about EARNING things which wont mean a thing if you have unlimited supplies.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted July 19, 2013 03:31 PM |
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Yes, I believe working to earn something is much more important than what comes after you win.
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2013 03:31 PM |
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I haven't read Lacan (I'm not into postmodernism) but the whole "the pleasure is the game" stuff is nonsense. If you like "the game" more than you like the outcome, either you've chosen the wrong outcome to pursue or there's something wrong with you.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted July 19, 2013 03:33 PM |
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I disagree mvass. To me, it's all about the game, the thrill of the fight. The prize is good but the path to it is much more rewarding in itself.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 19, 2013 03:37 PM |
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mvassilev said:
I haven't read Lacan (I'm not into postmodernism) but the whole "the pleasure is the game" stuff is nonsense. If you like "the game" more than you like the outcome, either you've chosen the wrong outcome to pursue or there's something wrong with you.
I would hardly call Lacan a postmodernist, he writes in the postmodern era. Why do you play computer games? What's the outcome, you even pay from your pocket to play.
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2013 03:38 PM |
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Drakon-Deus:
In some cases, the game is the objective. For example, the goal of playing DotA is to play DotA. That's the enjoyable part - you don't play to have won, though that's a bonus. But for life in general, you want the end result without having to go through what it takes to get it. If I could snap my fingers and be a billionaire tomorrow, I'd do it - and I guarantee that I'd be much happier if I could. A lot of people are bad at choosing goals, and don't choose in a way that makes them happy. They anticipate being happy, which is why they like the process of achieving their goals, but because they were fundamentally mistaken about what to seek, the end results aren't what they wanted. After that happens enough, people get used to it and think that's a fact that's inherent to life, but it really isn't. You just have to make better decisions.
artu:
I mean "postmodernist" in the broad sense, the sense that includes most continental philosophers.
I play computer games because they're fun. Winning makes it additionally fun, but it's usually fun even when I don't win. Winning is a relatively minor desired outcome - my primary desire is to just play, and being in the state of playing is already an outcome.
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Zenofex
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posted July 19, 2013 03:40 PM |
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Earning something as a result of a hard work is WAY more satisfying than having it served to you on a plate. I'd say that there's something wrong with the people who think otherwise and who usually tend to live parasitic lives.
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2013 03:45 PM |
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If you wouldn't want to snap your fingers to get it (if that were possible), then why go through all the trouble of doing more to get it? If "going through all the trouble" is enjoyable, than that is your real goal, not whatever the end result is.
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artu
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posted July 19, 2013 03:46 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:55, 19 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
If I could snap my fingers and be a billionaire tomorrow, I'd do it - and I guarantee that I'd be much happier if I could.
Well, it sure seems like that and there's of course a reality to it. But keep in mind there are a lot of unhappy billionaires who are bored to death. Sure, they don't burn their money and start all over just for the thrill of it, but they don't define the state of being idle as heavenly as you either. A lot of athletes, although they are already wealthy as a Sultan, go into depression when they retire. And if we go back to the computer game, you never choose the easiest difficulty setting unless you are a total noob, don't you?
Also, Mvassilev versus Mvassilev:
Quote:
If you like "the game" more than you like the outcome, either you've chosen the wrong outcome to pursue or there's something wrong with you.
Quote:
Winning is a relatively minor desired outcome - my primary desire is to just play, and being in the state of playing is already an outcome.
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Zenofex
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posted July 19, 2013 03:55 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:58, 19 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
If you wouldn't want to snap your fingers to get it (if that were possible), then why go through all the trouble of doing more to get it? If "going through all the trouble" is enjoyable, than that is your real goal, not whatever the end result is.
No, "going through all the trouble" is not the goal and as usual you have it all turned upside down. Getting something effortlessly or just receiving "gifts" all the time robs you of experience, does nothing to improve your skills and ultimately makes you a vegetable - which life does not tolerate anyway, except if you are really a vegetable. You do not really earn anything, you have it all readily available to you so you, as a person, are pretty likely to feel bored to death, living a hollow and monotonous life and never really experience what is to really achieve something. Which is hardly "good".
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2013 03:56 PM |
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artu:
Money alone can't make someone happy, but it does make happiness easier. As I said, you have to be able to select ends you enjoy. A lot of people are bad at that. And even if you're a billionaire, you don't have to be idle. Take up a sport, start a new business, argue on the Internet - the possibilities are endless. In fact, you have more possibilities when you have more money. If you still find yourself unhappy, you may have depression or some other similar problem and should seek treatment.Quote:
if we go back to the computer game, you never choose the easiest difficulty setting unless you are a total noob, don't you?
I choose the easiest difficulty settings if I'm new to the game, even if I've played other games in the genre and I would be expected to play at a higher difficulty level. When I replay, I select the hardest difficulty level, then cheat (if possible). It's even easier than the lowest difficulty level, and more fun. For example, when playing HoMM, I don't like resource constraints, so I play without them. Every time I don't have enough resources, I press Tab and type "wogisengard". Every time I'm in a battle I can't win (or don't want to have losses), I press Tab and type "wogfrodo". When I play Civilization IV, the first thing I do is give myself several Great People using the World Builder. I also often use World Builder later in the game, such as when someone declares war on me when I'm not ready, or if someone gets a Wonder before me - I remove it from their city and add it to one of mine. So yes, I want games to be easy and fun. If a game is described as "challenging", that really means it's frustrating and not very fun.
Also, those quotes aren't contradictory. In the case of computer games, actually playing the game is the desired outcome. I don't play in order to win, I play because playing is fun. Winning is fun, but it's not as fun as playing itself. If I chose to win without playing (whatever that would entail), I would be depriving myself of my main source of enjoyment - therefore, winning is the wrong goal (for me). Playing is the right goal.
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artu
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posted July 19, 2013 04:00 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:05, 19 Jul 2013.
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Quote:
I choose the easiest difficulty settings if I'm new to the game
That's what I meant by noob.
Quote:
Also, those quotes aren't contradictory. In the case of computer games, actually playing the game is the desired outcome. I don't play in order to win, I play because playing is fun.
The point is that pleasure of just playing wouldn't be there to begin with if Lacan wasn't, at least partially, right. Kittens play like hunters because they have the instincts of a hunter.
Anyway, the main topic hasn't been discussed enough yet and I feel like we are spending too much time on this aspect. So for now, I'll stop.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 19, 2013 04:18 PM |
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artu said:
JJ said:
The government has an administrative job in this age of democracy, and its real task is to avoid a class struggle and social disorder by making sure that everyone has to lose Something while at the same time allowing the rich to play their games and get even richer.
What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean by making sure everyone has something to lose?
Yes. Only those who have nothing to lose are really dangerous for the social peace.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted July 19, 2013 05:20 PM |
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Back to progress, is society really better off than 100 years ago, for example? In some ways, a resounding yes, but in others not so much.
Either way, I think progress is the way of life. I hate parasitic life and stagnation. If society stopped advancing, say, 50 years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.
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xerox
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posted July 19, 2013 07:43 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:53, 19 Jul 2013.
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I don't think you can say that we consequently progress in every area. Some areas have had dips through history but generally, and especially in the last few decades, we've seen a tremendous increase in prosperity, tolerance, freedom and peace. I guess materially, Europe's not progressing as much as it once did due to global competition and debt catching up, but looking at Earth as a whole, I can't really see any area where we're not making progress. An exception might be the state of our personal privacy which, sadly, a lot of people (especially americans) don't seem to care about that much. The war against terror, and the events that led up to it, has not resulted in anything positive.
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Over himself, over his own
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sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Drakon-Deus
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posted July 19, 2013 07:46 PM |
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You got that part right. We may have access to more information than ever now, but that won't make us better persons.
Integrity is missing from most people I've met this far.
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xerox
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posted July 19, 2013 07:52 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:56, 19 Jul 2013.
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Opps, I meant integrity as in privacy.
Are we better people today? Of course that's very relative, people will always think that they do the right thing, but yes, we are better people today in that there is a much greater and growing acceptance of differences. Be it sexuality, gender, ethnicity or nationality. I believe this will continue to improve with increased wealth, knowledge and globalisation.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted July 19, 2013 07:58 PM |
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Quote:
The whole "hardship is necessary" attitude sounds like nothing more than a coping mechanism. It's the secular equivalent of "suffering is part of God's plan".
Oh, man, I've followed both those creeds at points n my life. I'm still kinda in the first one. It's why I play solo queue in league. To purify my soul.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted July 19, 2013 08:03 PM |
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<< Even small hardships are bad. >>
As in, let's not do anything too hard to improve our situation, and life is too hard anyway, why bother?... yeah, not going to agree with this.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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