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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Why work when you can get more money from welfare?
Thread: Why work when you can get more money from welfare? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV
markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2013 06:52 PM

Salamandre said:
Welfare should be offered to:

a) people who lost their job because external reasons (bankruptcy, economic crisis)

b) people who suffered a handicap because external reasons (accident, genetics) and can not work anymore.

Welfare should never be given to:

a) third world immigrants, just for putting a feet on ground in a country. Set a delay of 5 years, as Canada and Switzerland do.

b) for every new born. Kids are family responsibility and a life project, don't bred 8 if you can't sustain, and is not only about financial aspect.


I completely agree with you Sal and also have the same anger and frustration as well, when I continue to read of the serious abuse of the welfare system.

<imo> There has to a be reason why Western governments keep making the decision to cater to illegals instead of treating them like criminals that broke the law to enter the country; further more,  to give to these same folks all the insurance-rewards (if not more) of the system when they have never been a part of the system they came here to use. Granted, this has gotten so bad that <imo> it has fueled the problems within the native-population since they have been saying...if "they" can get it, shoot! why not US? And some do, what's funny(bizarre) is that some CANNOT.

Now I'll insert "my life" into this mess.

I worked hard for 35 years and I mean HARD. I never took a cent from anyone. I never did the unemployment bit. (I am NOT against unemployment) I never needed anyone else but that was then and this talk is now.

Flash-forward in time and after all the years handing the GOV money for this "type of insurance"; I came down with a wicked bone-disease; gradually my body has fell-apart. I HAD to turn to my disability; I had no choice.

It took me about a 1 & 1/2 year law struggle to get what I had paid-for...Disability if/when I became disabled. I had to give good details to win the case, like my very solid work-history. i.e. In one year and a half stretch, I lifted 20,000 lbs (per day)for 6 days a week. I was lucky because it's kind of hard to tell a dude that is stupid enough to lift 120,000 lbs a week he's lazy and harder yet to deny a case on fraud. I WON

So then, how can this same GOV make taxers-payers & long-term-participants like me jump through tight-legal hoops with automatic rejection a "part of the plan" and then just hand the program benefits out like candy to those that have never even been here, let alone worked here and participate in the same system?

I think the reason is simple; they want more taxpayers in the future because the old base is dying or has been gutted by sending work overseas.

<imo> Future taxpayers is the only reason that makes any sense to me, no matter how flawed their present logic.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted September 06, 2013 06:54 PM

You may not want people to take risks that may result in them being in poverty, but they want to take those risks. Why do your preferences override theirs?
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Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted September 06, 2013 06:55 PM
Edited by Fauch at 19:04, 06 Sep 2013.

OhforfSake said:
Never is it considered the alternative, a system which discourages negative trades, where many loses just so a few can gain.

a system that requires an infinite acceleration of the rhythm of trades is silly anyway. (when the rhythm slows down it's called a depression or crisis) it is disconnected from reality. it is also the main cause of ecological issues.

OhforfSake said:
Personally I'd prefer if we'd rid ourself of our monetary system and freely distribute goods across the globe. Of course there'd be problems to be dealt with, no doubt, and it's probably not the thread for discussing those.

I thought about that. there would be logistical issue to resolve (and lots of conflicts of interest too of course)
I think a good point of such a system is that it would make accumulation of wealth in a few hands much more difficult. you can accumulate massive amount of money, because it is something virtual. it is much more complicated to accumulate physical goods. where would Bill Gates keeps the equivalent of 50 billions of dollars of physical goods?
moreover there would be no point to it, unless you can hoard massive enough quantities of good to make the rapport between offers and demands significantly change, such as when traders virtually buy massive quantities of goods only to make prices changes.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted September 06, 2013 07:05 PM

mvassilevsky said:
You may not want people to take risks that may result in them being in poverty, but they want to take those risks. Why do your preferences override theirs?


Let me try again. I am not deciding what people should or shouldn't do. I am deciding that if people are in a situation where they otherwise would have lost, then they wouldn't have (if they don't want it to happen), not that they couldn't have.

@Fauch
I honestly don't mind if someone are more wealthy than someone else. I only want people to get what they want, e.g. those in need to get "wealth" so to say.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted September 06, 2013 07:06 PM

mvassilev said:
You may not want people to take risks that may result in them being in poverty, but they want to take those risks. Why do your preferences override theirs?


If this is to me; what do you mean?

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted September 06, 2013 07:08 PM

It was meant to me.

That's despite I wrote "People, in my opinion, ought to be allowed whatever they want.".

Which makes the misunderstand really really weird.
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Fauch
Fauch


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posted September 06, 2013 07:20 PM
Edited by Fauch at 19:33, 06 Sep 2013.

but it's not just a question of wealth, but of power as well. it's like in ancient Greece, there are people who need to work to survive, and others who have the political, economical, military powers. that's why most people have to be poor and working, to keep them away from power.


Quote:
<imo> There has to a be reason why Western governments keep making the decision to cater to illegals instead of treating them like criminals that broke the law to enter the country; further more,  to give to these same folks all the insurance-rewards (if not more) of the system when they have never been a part of the system they came here to use. Granted, this has gotten so bad that <imo>


the reason is simple : divide people and distract them away from the real problems. strategy of the scapegoat. I don't even know if all that we hear on this subject is actually true.

Quote:
I am NOT against unemployment

unless you were also against employment, that wouldn't make much sense.

Quote:
So then, how can this same GOV make taxers-payers & long-term-participants like me jump through tight-legal hoops with automatic rejection a "part of the plan" and then just hand the program benefits out like candy to those that have never even been here, let alone worked here and participate in the same system?

but do you know it is actually that easy for those people, or is it what you believe?

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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Initiate
posted September 06, 2013 07:43 PM

A big problem with welfare is the bureaucracy that follows in the footstep of everything government related.

I know of people where I live, who couldn't get welfare despite being entitled to it, because the person who's hired to administer the welfare checks thought her job was to minimize the cost to the government at all costs, even if that meant huge personal costs for her CLIENT (the person who was supposed to get welfare)!
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William
William


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LummoxLewis
posted September 09, 2013 01:57 PM bonus applied by Corribus on 10 Sep 2013.

I haven't read any posts in this thread but this is just my opinion when it comes to what the thread title is about.

When I was growing up, I never wanted to be one of those people that worked. In fact, I detested the very fact and actually wanted to have some sort of life. I was never that interested in money and certainly wasn't interested in getting a very good job. I suppose a lot of people must have been at that stage of thinking in their life.

I always used to rely on my parents to get everything for me whether it be games, clothes or food. I lived a life of luxury. When I got my first job, I really started to notice that it does help. It gives that little bit of independence. I could go out whenever I wanted and buy whatever I wanted without having to ask for it or with no regrets or guilty feelings that my parents may have forked a lot out on me. It was my own money to do with as I wished. I had that job for a year and then left and got another job that lasted for about a year and a half before my big move to England.

My first two jobs, I must note, I never really felt like I belonged. It was good to have been getting my own money but there was an aspect missing. I suppose a sense of belonging. The sense that I can go to work and be happy about the fact I was going to work. When I moved to England, I worked on a Fresh Produce department in a busy supermarket. The people there were friendly and it was like one massive family. I only started out on a 20 hour contract a week but the more I kept going and the longer I was there, it eventually got bumped up to about 28 hours, then 32 and then 40 hours a week. I was loving it.

Not only was I getting a lot of hard earned money but I was socialising. All of my friends happened to be working at the same store that I was. It was great. I was working long hours and then going to the pub with my work mates afterwards or even just going home and waking up the next day to do it all over again. I actually looked forward to going to work and even on days off or booked time off I used to ask if I could come in and I would go in. It was amazing.

The actual thought of having money in your account that you worked really hard for is one of the most satisfying feelings in the world. That is YOUR money. You earnt it and you can do as you please with it. It gives you a sense of independence, self worth and I suppose respect for yourself. If you go in, do the hard yards, graft all day, it gives you a sense of self respect.

Personally, I would never sign onto the dole. I would feel too guilty about it. That somebody out there is working hard only for myself to be lazy enough to take their hard earnt money and use it for myself. Obviously, there are people out there who are exempt for this but my point is, don't be lazy. Go out and get a job. You'll find it so rewarding. You'll feel a sense of self worth, respect for yourself and best of all, find new friends. Working is one of the greatest feelings I have ever felt and I feel lost without it. A sure change from just a few years ago.
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make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted September 10, 2013 02:28 AM
Edited by Corribus at 02:29, 10 Sep 2013.

Nice post, William.

Edit: Meh, Screw it. +QP awarded.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted September 10, 2013 06:09 AM

Quote:
Go out and get a job. You'll find it so rewarding.
I've always thought that the whole thing is about people who go out in attempt to find a job but can't.

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William
William


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LummoxLewis
posted September 10, 2013 06:18 AM

Thanks Cor.

Zenofex, that part of the post was more directed at people who go on the dole for the mere purpose that they are too lazy to actually go out and find a job. To them, they don't have to do a single thing and they get handed money to them.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted September 10, 2013 07:51 AM

I don't think anyone will disagree that lazy people deserve no help at all (except to move their asses). The welfare however is supposed to target people who want to work but can not because of external conditions.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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Undefeatable Hero
posted September 10, 2013 08:14 AM

Let's be fair here and simply look at the thread title:

Why work when you can get more money from welfare?

William answered to this, basically saying, because work comes with additional bonuses you don't get when you do NOT work.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted September 21, 2013 05:57 PM

Zenofex said:
I don't think anyone will disagree that lazy people deserve no help at all (except to move their asses). The welfare however is supposed to target people who want to work but can not because of external conditions.


Sorry I missed this. I disagree, there's no such thing as laziness in the sense you do not wish to earn for your own livings through activities you enjoy. This is not a sign of being lazy, it's a sign of a deep rooted problem for the person, said person needs help to come back, not to be condemned.

Sadly, like with so many groups before, now "lazy" people are the targeted of public hatred. We should focus on helping each other more, than putting blame.

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