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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2015 10:42 PM |
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There are two ways to seek acceptance. One is to try to assimilate as much as possible, and the other is to show that you won't be cowed and are strong enough not to conform. These strategies may seem opposed to each other, but they can be complementary - and in fact this is what has happened with homosexuality in the US. Gay people have both shown that they're not going to let themselves be shoved around (whether literally or metaphorically), and simultaneously that they're just like everybody else (except gay). I think this combined strategy is the most likely to be effective, because if you only go with the assertiveness route, people will dismiss you as weird, and if you go only with the assimilation route, people will never really accept all of you.Orzie said:
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In the democratic societies we strive to live in, everyone needs to maintain the prerogative of expressing their identities and opinions, both positive and negative.
You automatically allow anti-gay parades by these words.
Everyone should be free to parade, whether pro- or anti-gay. It's also part of freedom of expression. In the US, even neo-Nazis and the KKK are allowed to have parades, and that's great - it shows a strong dedication to freedom of speech.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 04, 2015 10:46 PM |
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Yet, the KKK now accepts black people in its ranks. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 04, 2015 10:49 PM |
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no artu, actually YOU live on another planet (turkey) but constantly intervene in this topic without having a clue what the gays problems are in the west-at light years from those in your country-. Should we discuss about the PMA (assisted procreation) they now claim from the tax payer? Thing that they swore to never ask, when the referendum concerning marriage took place. PMA, which is legally reserved to only straight families suffering from infertility or similar health annoyances. The government assured us they will never let it drift in that way, but now they back up, as once you legally set gay marriage as "normal" and "family", then you can't dance with further considerations. This is a huge cost. Being gay is not being infertile.
When I say people is reciting the perfect manual, is because in the real world things do NOT work that way. There are lobbies, agendas, power-mungers,political interests, what else: the human nature in its full splendor. Democracy is never one, there is always a dominant vector manipulating all others for its interests and applying firm censure to anything threatening its plot.
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Era II mods and utilities
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 04, 2015 10:55 PM |
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Orzie said:
Yet, the KKK now accepts black people in its ranks.
I recently saw a documentary about a black piano player which made friends in the KKK, a lot of them being high-ranked. They also gave him robes as souvenirs and let him assist to their ceremonies. Ofc he said he was in a lot of dangerous situations
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2015 10:56 PM |
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But two wrongs don't make a right, Sal. No one here has said that subsidizing assisted procreation for gay people is a good policy, and it's perfectly consistent to support equality for gay people while opposing all that subsidy stuff. You're making the perfect (ideal policy) the enemy of the good (improvements).
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2015 11:00 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:01, 04 Jan 2015.
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Salamandre said:
no artu, actually YOU live on another planet (turkey) but constantly intervene in this topic without having a clue what the gays problems are in the west-at light years from those in your country-. Should we discuss about the PMA (assisted procreation) they now claim from the tax payer? Thing that they swore to never ask, when the referendum concerning marriage took place. PMA, which is legally reserved to only straight families suffering from infertility or similar health annoyances. The government assured us they will never let it drift in that way, but now they back up, as once you legally set gay marriage as "normal" and "family", then you can't dance with further considerations. This is a huge cost. Being gay is not being infertile.
When I say people is reciting the perfect manual, is because in the real world things do NOT work that way. There are lobbies, agendas, power-mungers,political interests, what else: the human nature in its full splendor. Democracy is never one, there is always a dominant vector manipulating all others for its interests and applying firm censure to anything threatening its plot.
1. There are no "they" demanding or promising anything. Gay people are individuals, not some conspiring hivemind.
2. If straight people can get tax-paid assisted procreation than why can't gay people? Or are you agaisnt people being equal before the law?
3. brb working on my political gay plot to conquer the world with rainbows and decadence
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 04, 2015 11:05 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:29, 04 Jan 2015.
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Salamandre said:
no artu, actually YOU live on another planet (turkey) but constantly intervene in this topic without having a clue what the gays problems are in the west-at light years from those in your country-. Should we discuss about the PMA (assisted procreation) they now claim from the tax payer? Thing that they swore to never ask, when the referendum concerning marriage took place. PMA, which is legally reserved to only straight families suffering from infertility or similar health annoyances. The government assured us they will never let it drift in that way, but now they back up, as once you legally set gay marriage as "normal" and "family", then you can't dance with further considerations. This is a huge cost. Being gay is not being infertile.
When I say people is reciting the perfect manual, is because in the real world things do NOT work that way. There are lobbies, agendas, power-mungers,political interests, what else: the human nature in its full splendor. Democracy is never one, there is always a dominant vector manipulating all others for its interests and applying firm censure to anything threatening its plot.
I am very well aware that the standards in my country are primitive in this issue, the thing is, I don't consider them sensible, you do. Fertility dysfunctions and how it should be handled by social welfare when it comes to gay couples would be a perfectly reasonable platform of debate, if that was what you had been doing, I wouldn't make such a comment. If I remember correctly, it came up before, I even remember partly agreeing with you. But you didn't bring that up, did you, you brought the argument of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. And I consider that argument from another planet.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 04, 2015 11:07 PM |
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xerox said:
1. There are no "they" demanding or promising anything. Gay people are individuals, not some conspiring hivemind.
It is referred as "Gay Community", there are non-governmental organizations militating for homosexuals
xerox said:
2. If straight people can get tax-paid assisted procreation than why can't gay people? Or are you agaisnt people being equal before the law?
Infertility comes as a bigger burden for straight couples, because ,you know, they are supposed to have children, while gay couples are from start biologically inapt for this and let's say they can "plan" their relationship based on this fact
xerox said:
3. brb working on my political gay plot to conquer the world with rainbows and decadence
If by that you mean catching more STDs, I suggest you to wear a condom 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2015 01:09 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:10, 05 Jan 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
It is referred as "Gay Community", there are non-governmental organizations militating for homosexual
The gays in the so-called "gay community" have nothing in common except that they're gay.
LGBTQ NGOs are not representatives of LGBTQ people. They are representatives of themselves.
Entailing that I as an individual share the views of LGBTQ organizations that I'm not even a member of is nothing less than sheer, stupid and diminishing collectivism. I find it offensive since it's basically the same thing as saying that Germans share the views of Hitler just because he was a German citizen.
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Infertility comes as a bigger burden for straight couples, because ,you know, they are supposed to have children, while gay couples are from start biologically inapt for this and let's say they can "plan" their relationship based on this fact
How is infertility a bigger burden for straight couple than gay couples? You don't think gay couples want children too? And why does it matter if something is natural or not? Like Artu mentioned in this thread, we do tons of things that are not natural. I don't get this ultra conservative obesssion with doing things the "natural way". We humans hardly do anything the natural way these days anyway because we progressed from that.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 05, 2015 01:22 AM |
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Gay couples may want children, gay couples may want immortality. What we want isn't always what we can have, especially if you formulate things based on the premise "to want is to be entitled to." That's childish. Gay couples can adopt, I have no objection to that, but sucking welfare money that is reserved for biologically infertile people is cheating, you are not infertile, if it's so important for you to have a kid, impregnate.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2015 01:36 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:38, 05 Jan 2015.
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I don't want it to be tax-funded (because I want to abolish taxation) but IF government provides a right for people to be assissted in procreation, then that right should be equal. It's discrimination for only straight people to have that right. Either it is in the domain of government to assist people, regardless of sexual orientaiton, in reproduction or it isn't-.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 05, 2015 01:37 AM |
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But it's not a right, it's an ability.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2015 01:40 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:43, 05 Jan 2015.
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It is a tax-funded positive right to reproduction. Giving heterosexual people a tax-funded opportunity to reproduce but not homosexual people because they "have that ability anyway" (which they don't, because a man can't be inpregnated) is latent homophobia.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 05, 2015 01:41 AM |
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If the government wants the population to go up, what's wrong with the government partially paying for artificially inseminating lesbian mothers when they're doing it to straight mothers too?
EDIT: What does it matter which genitals they lick? What if they lick both?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 05, 2015 01:45 AM |
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Everybody has a right to reproduce, disabled people benefit from social welfare to help that right, you are not disabled. It's simple, I wont elaborate any further, you get it or you don't.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2015 01:56 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:58, 05 Jan 2015.
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artu said:
Everybody has a right to reproduce, disabled people benefit from social welfare to help that right, you are not disabled. It's simple, I wont elaborate any further, you get it or you don't.
So then why can't gays get assistance to reproduce?
They are just as impaired as a straight person that's unable to reproduce.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 05, 2015 01:58 AM |
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No, they are not.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 05, 2015 01:59 AM |
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A disabled person can not reproduce with his or her partner because of biological liabilities. A gay person can not reproduce with his or her partner because of biological liabilities. It's the same thing. Discriminating on this is inequal and unjust. Why is it so important that only straight people can have assistance based on their liabilities?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 05, 2015 02:11 AM |
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Like, artu. Think about it. Suppose a government wants to fund the artificial insemination of mothers that otherwise can't conceive of a child outside their family unit. Should their criteria look at their partners? I personally think if we look at the physical reality of the situation it is kind of mean-spirited to fund infertile men but not couples of women. What are you going to tell them?
Why would a straight couple with an infertile partner be somehow more deserving of a child than a gay couple? You don't like gay couples having children? You're gonna tell gay women to go sleep with a man? You would tell this to a woman married to an infertile man?
Like, most likely the gay couple would be less costly anyway. if one woman is infertile, maybe the other woman isn't you know? Like, look at it from a practical perspective. You're a government wanting people to have more kids. If it's because your population was dwindling, then why discriminate against gay people? If it is to make the general population happier, why discriminate against gay people?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 05, 2015 05:10 AM |
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20 yo people without any knowledge of how is working, are sharing their "immaculate conception" irresponsible vision...
Health care is not a utopia system, where money is coming from the sky and destinate to aid the unfortunate. It came clear to me that you never contribute to it, but instead still suck the resources of your family/environment, therefore your arguments are laughable, sorry. Health care is an economic system, perfected on a mathematic model, and it must WORK, thus the variable implying who asks, who receives and who gives are very strict, set up on percentages and probabilities.
You can't calculate the tax on the income on one side, then find that a new category of the population needs additional taxes, then increase the taxes. If they do so, the people will literally revolt and gays will be in the center of an enormous scandal. We are talking here about several billions euros increase, the cost of the PMA is astronomical.
Come back when 1 third of your income will be monthly added to health care machine, then we talk about becoming 2/3 because your good heart toward gays PMA.
Is good that xerox finally shows how insidious this MOVEMENT's agenda can be. You give this, they ask 10 times more. Now we can discuss, that all the details are known.
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This thread is pages long: 
