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| Thread: Malaysia Airlines Flight shot down over Ukraine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted July 18, 2014 03:31 AM |
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Malaysia Airlines Flight shot down over Ukraine
Hello Everyone.
A double blow for Malaysia Airlines as one of their B777 planes got shot down over Ukranian airspace, killing all 298 on board. Apparently a SAM missile was used to shoot down the aircraft, and I believe it's most likely from Russian separatists in Ukraine.
What's even worse is that it's carrying a lot of scientists and academics who are travelling to Melbourne for an International conference on AIDS, an epidemic disease mostly affecting people from Africa.
Already the finger-pointing is starting, with Russia taking a lot of blame.
MH17 Flight shot down over Ukraine Airspace
This is another tragedy for the world. Hope we don't see another one this year. My condolences go to all of those families who suffered because of this atrocious act. It's official, there are now terrorists in Ukraine.
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No one knows my true nature here...
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted July 18, 2014 10:10 AM |
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If Ukraine cannot control what happens within her borders then it should be dissolved and taken over by someone who can.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 10:33 AM |
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Edited by Orzie at 10:46, 18 Jul 2014.
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The whole story has a snow smell, and soon all the details will be revealed. How could a civilian aircraft enter the battle zone without the help of Ukrainian dispatchers? The original route for the plane was laying in another way.
15, 16, 17 Èþëÿ = 15, 16, 17 July
All I can guess is that is an obvious provocation to change the turn of events in the battle zone, at least for a while. As if nothing had happened, a hour before the message about the aircraft catastrophe, the Ukrainian mass media "casually" remembered that separatists could have captured a very powerful anti-aircraft weapon.
Not even mentioning the Spanish dispatcher who worked in Ukraine and provided some info which causes even more questions. Especially the info that the Boeing was escorted by a couple of Ukrainian interceptors right before it disappeared from radars.
Poor, poor people. If only we could help their relatives somehow. One more dirty politics trick, but this time performed even more clumsy.
Quote:
MH17 Flight shot down over Ukraine Airspace
It was not shot down near the Russian territory. It was shot in the center of the battle zone in Ukraine (which is far from Russian territory) and fell off the ground in the back areas of separatist regions.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 11:05 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:08, 18 Jul 2014.
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It's bait. And it's obvious. The eagerness with which all the world accused Russia just confirms it to me.
A lot of irregularities with the flight as Orzie said. Our news reported that the plane lost contact with the tower immediately after taking off from Amsterdam. Dunno if it's true, but if it is it should tell you something.
My theory - The flight was purposely led through that territory to instigate. If the separatists blew it up or if whoever was controlling it blew it themselves, it doesn't matter. The US already proposed another set of sanctions on Russia. Quite a fast decision regarding such an unstable international situation, which makes me believe they already knew about it and planned ahead.
Finally, as I always say, rarely things are as they appear. The media is the worst manipulation tool ever. I've learned to distrust it on principle.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 11:47 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 11:50, 18 Jul 2014.
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Oh my God.
I stopped posting in Ukraine thread because I was tired of that pointless discussion, but this is something unbelievable. Orzie, check your sources please.
1) Where did you get your fake picture about 15-17 July? Luckily there some services like flightradar that could simply prove that is a lie. http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh17/#3d1c512
Russian propaganda is such propaganda.
2) Spanish dispatcher working in Kyiv, huh? That looks like lie from the beginning, no? You can try and find his tweets in twitter, but you wouldn't be able to do this. You know why? Because he has removed his twitter account @spainbuca
We have google cache: SmHTIbJ9qkJ:https://twitter.com/spainbuca+&cd=1&hl=kk&ct=clnk&gl=kz" target=_blank>http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache SmHTIbJ9qkJ:https://twitter.com/spainbuca+&cd=1&hl=kk&ct=clnk&gl=kz
And here is a yesterday video(in Russian) of guy describing that twitter account: https://vk.com/video199583639_169496889?hash=4dc17a2f427e022f Funny thing that "spanish dispatcher" was reposting Russia Today's propaganda multiple times. Conclusion: he is not a dispatcher, but a russian bot.
3) Ukraine's air space was closed for civilian flights under 8000 meters high. That is why planes were still flying over that zone (MH17 was shot down at 10000m)
4) DNR's so called PM Alexander Boroday stated that they don't have weapons to take down planes at that height. And that is a lie again. Just a day before this accident, the terrorists shot down ukrainian transport army plane AN-26 at 6km height, two of the crew dead, 6 catapulted from which 2 were taken by terrorists as captives:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=703817639671525&set=a.500550319998259.1073741825.100001298866627&type=1
5) Half an hour right after the MH17 crash one of the terrorists commander Strelkov bragged they took down another ukrainian AN-26 (you can guess what that plane actually was)
http://www.5.ua/images/%D0%93%D1%96%D1%80%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BD_%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%B3_%D0%92%D0%9A2.jpg
Such a stupidity. (Quote: we did warn - don't fly in "our sky")
6) Russian media claims the plane could be taken down by Ukrainian army. That does not make sense because terrorists do not have aircraft. Firing at civilian planes by purpose is just non-sense.
7) Even the same russian media websites present controversial information about BUK weapons in hands of terrorists. They claimed terrorists had it and now they claim they don't.
https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/q71/s720x720/10348654_10152248057506560_5752202746686660424_o.jpg
Definitely lies again.
8) Calls intercepted by Secret Services of Ukraine (SBU):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnuHxAR01Jo&feature=youtu.be
It's not the first time SBU publishes intercepted calls and since the voices are similar it has high chance not to be fake.
I think that is enough to make a conclusion, I don't want to hear more of your propaganda.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 12:28 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 12:28, 18 Jul 2014.
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This is very bad for Putin. Now there will be more pressure on him to stop supplying the separatists with weapons.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 12:36 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 12:53, 18 Jul 2014.
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Quote:
You can try and find his tweets in twitter, but you wouldn't be able to do this.
His tweets were available several hours ago, and you know no less than me that Twitter and Livejournal are systematically blocking the separatist and pro-russian resources, and only the massive petitions to the administration restore the pages to be deleted again later. We will see how it will turn out - as I said, this Twitter account brings more questions than answers.
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Russia Today's propaganda
You call live videos from fights in Ukraine a propaganda? Huh? Or, probably, you believe more that separatists are bombing their own cities where they were born to accuse Ukrainian army of it?
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Ukraine's air space was closed for civilian flights under 8000 meters high. That is why planes were still flying over that zone (MH17 was shot down at 10000m)
Yeah? And surprisingly, a hour before the crash Ukrainian mass media post an article about separatists having the needed equipment to strike down aircrafts on a big height? This is what sounds like a lie. These people did nothing to save the aircraft, while they obviously knew it is flying over a battle zone.
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Firing at civilian planes by purpose is just non-sense.
Do you really think so or you are just naive as before? Firing at civilian planes is the only way left to accuse the separatists of terrorism. And this is what we can see now. Everyone blames Russia now, posting tons of fakes throughout all the Internet. So do you, because you are totally biased. 23 years of anti-Russian propaganda in the West Ukraine have made their deal. Ukrainians were even happy when the metro incident in Moscow happened, where a lot of innocent people died. This was easily distinguished in the comments on all those news repots.
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Even the same russian media
Don't quote russian media. I thought I already explained to you that it is bullsnow. Nullify everything they say.
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Calls intercepted by Secret Services of Ukraine (SBU). It's not the first time SBU publishes intercepted calls and since the voices are similar it has high chance not to be fake.
Come on. Ukrainian Security Service could be fabricating those calls from the very start, and these records prove nothing. Portraits of those people put in the video don't make this video truth. You don't know how the Security Service works. These people specialize on tricks like that.
As for the fake "Strelkov's quote" - here is a quote from Ukrainian site with the same factor of "reliability" saying that the MH17 had 280 russian troopers on board and was taken down. Enjoy.
Also, a quote from the same VK page you tried to show me. The text says that it was not Strelkov saying about the aircraft, but rumors from the local forum.
So, again, your argument is no less invalid.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 12:47 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 12:50, 18 Jul 2014.
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Quote:
This is very bad for Putin. Now there will be more pressure on him to stop supplying the separatists with weapons.
That was obviously the plan of people who decided to make this trick. It reminds me of 1983, when the South Korean Boeing was shot down by almost the same scenario.
Also, a month or 1,5 months ago (Yes, I remember that by myself) anti-maidan resources were posting a funny (as they thought at that time) picture about Ukraine possibly taking down an aircraft full of European tourists to make NATO to send troops. Now this has become a reality. The provocation factor of this aircraft event rolls. What a convenient time to shoot an aircraft, when the Ukrainian army started losing the war on the East, and many countries started thinking about postponing the "sanctions", isn't it?
I even found it.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 01:36 PM |
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I don't understand what makes Russians support Putin's schemes.
Don't you see that the world is starting to hate Russia?
Russia could become a free and prosperous liberal democracy, an ally of the EU and the NATO, but instead you rejected that to become a gang of authoritarian villains.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
Just stop it, don't spread additional portions of lies. With all the responsibility I can tell you that this is not in Ukrainian - it is google translate from Russian to Ukrainian, 20% of words are just incorrect. That's a very low level.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 01:59 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 14:37, 18 Jul 2014.
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Quote:
I don't understand what makes Russians support Putin's schemes.
Don't you see that the world is starting to hate Russia?
Russia could become a free and prosperous liberal democracy, an ally of the EU and the NATO, but instead you rejected that to become a gang of authoritarian villains.
It sounds a bit naive, don't you think? Russia can prosper only in one way - when it's not dependent on the EU and NATO. Otherwise keeping Russia strong is not beneficial to both the EU and NATO. It's obvious that anti-Putin propaganda has reached the highest mark ever been, and the convenient time for it has come with the Ukrainian civil war. The Crimea crisis only worsened the situation. The example of Bulgaria shows us that when the new country enters the EU, it does not benefit from this much. If Russia was like that, there wouldn't be the same Russia as it is now.
When Putin first came to the presidential post in 2000, Russia was in a terrible state, thanks to the previous president, Eltsin. He was a total snow, to be short. The national currency fell 30-fold in comparison to US Dollar, and many people were drawn into real poverty, not even talking about the general situation with the army and manufacturers. No country feared Russia, and thus everyone was satisfied with Russia. But now Russia has come to power, and it's obvious that not many peopló on the West are glad about it.
Putin has a lot of his own disadvantages. He's an oligarch and his politics affect a lot of things, like with Caucasus or the general principle of merging the power of law with the large business. He's also not fair in terms of presidential elections - I don't think there will be anyone able to contest him - he will make everything possible to prevent that. Our mass media are ought to praise Putin's politics, and if they do otherwise, they can be visited by the people from the Secret Service. There is also an 'official' opposition to United Russia party which is supported still by the government, but not so openly.
As for the support and schemes - well, speaking about Crimea, Russians have always considered Crimea as Russia, regardless of Putin. There were also a lot of people who identified themselves as ethnical Russians in Crimea. The similar situation we can see with Poland and Western Ukrainian cities: Lvov, Ternopol, several others. These territories were annexed from Poland by the USSR in the WWII.
Donetsk and Lugansk are inhabited by the ultimate majority of people who speak native Russian and who have relatives in Russia, who work in Russia (by the means of watch). There are also a number of people who identify themselves as native Russians. That is why the sympathies towards the inhabitants of these regions have always been strong for Russians.
Well, to be honest, a year ago most of Russians liked all Ukrainians regardless of the place they lived in. Similar languages (we can understand each other without a dictionary in most cases), similar culture, folklore. But since the death of USSR there was mostly pro-Western presidents and administration, who systematically and thoroughly held an anti-Russian politics, starting with the book names "Why Ukraine is Not Russia" by president Kuchma, which in general says like "Russians love alcohol, they are lazy and stupid, but Ukrainians are hard-working and conscious", then, with the coming of president Yuschenko, the propaganda about Holodomor in Ukrainian schools (USSR KGB - Committee of State Security officers took off the crops from peasants and they starved to death) - and no one remembers that in Russia the situation was just the same in regions like Povolzh'e (Volga region). After that was Yanukovitch, the first pro-russian president. And surpisingly, he was driven out from his post by the means of bloody revolution. Guess the impressions of Russians, and multiply it on a massive propaganda.
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Just stop it, don't spread additional portions of lies. With all the responsibility I can tell you that this is not in Ukrainian - it is google translate from Russian to Ukrainian, 20% of words are just incorrect. That's a very low level.
Half of all Ukraine speaks the flawed version of Ukrainian. You are from Lvov, right? This explains something.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 02:52 PM |
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Edited by ihor at 14:54, 18 Jul 2014.
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Facepalm. That is not flawed Ukrainian, that is GOOGLE TRANSLATE! Nobody speaks google translate version of Ukrainian.
I will try translate that to pseudo English what is written there for everybody else:
Quote:
Ukraine - Svodki from Petro Poroshenko
Today 17.07.2014 ukrainian army shot down a plane over Shakhtarskom. 280 terrorists killed, which came from Russia. Putin thought he can simply send his trerroristov, no, we will kill all planes with voskaymi of Russia.
Funny, huh? Anybody sensible can believe in such absurdity? You can post where you got that image, so called "official ukrainian website".
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 03:31 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 15:32, 18 Jul 2014.
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It's another VK page, just like the one you sent me. And yeah, the reliability of information is just the same.
Many Ukrainians are able to believe in every snow Ukrainian mass media like ÒÑÍ or the 5th Channel fills them in. It is enough to say word Putin and to blame him in every Ukrainian trouble - and the people will gladly believe. Somehow people forget that Ukraine has a huge debt, an oligarch president, no gas and large casualties on the southeast in the war that no one really wanted.
As for the airplane - we will see how it turns out. The info sources from both sides change their posts almost every minute.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 04:07 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 16:08, 18 Jul 2014.
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i think i'll just focus on the tragedy and stupidity of many people being killed, just to get other people to rally against one another, so that further killing can be done; and all in the name of nationalism. VERY civilized. 
btw, i don't side with anybody. so don't think for a second that i'm talking about ukraine, russia, or seperatist movements, at all.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 18, 2014 04:20 PM |
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From a motivational standpoint, I can't see how it would be beneficial to Russia or pro-Russian separatist Ukrainians to shoot down a 3rd party passenger plane loaded with civilians from NATO. It just serves as a pretext for greater intervention, and the world is either opposed to Russia or being quiet as a mouse about it (China).
The equipment you need to sink a high altitude jetliner isn't something you pick up on the street. Whoever shot it down must have been somebody semi-important. My guess is, somebody, somewhere, made a very stupid decision, and the side they're on is now very nervous because of it.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 04:29 PM |
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Moreover, you will have to be really skilled and have an experienced team to operate such kind of weaponry. And you have to have this weaponry first of all, along with all the needed equipment.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 04:33 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
From a motivational standpoint, I can't see how it would be beneficial to Russia or pro-Russian separatist Ukrainians to shoot down a 3rd party passenger plane loaded with civilians from NATO. It just serves as a pretext for greater intervention, and the world is either opposed to Russia or being quiet as a mouse about it (China).
That might be true, but similar arguments (involvement of the USA) didn't withhold Germany from unrestricted submarine warfare in WW1.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 04:48 PM |
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Those conspiration theories...
Nobody wanted to take down that jet. Nobody. Terrorists thought that is ukrainian transport army plane AN-26. Mistake. That simple. That is why Strelkov reported about taking down AN-26 half an hour after the crash. Everything what happened afterwards is just trying to mask what actually happened.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 04:52 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 16:59, 18 Jul 2014.
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Strelkov didn't report anything. The community we discussed posts Strelkov's quotes with a special banner - there was no such banner. It was on observation of local people, who obviously thought that it is another Ukrainian battle aircraft taken down by separatists, thus the joy from them - Ukraine has lost a number of jet fighters before, so it was not a phenomenon for them. They saw it burning far in the sky.
As for the conspiracy theories - Ukrainian Truth (Pravda) has posted an article about separatists not having the opportunity to take down the plane.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/07/18/7032278/
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted July 18, 2014 05:04 PM |
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Statement from Pravda: "Terrorists did not capture Ukrainian BUK."
Your conclusion: "...separatists not having the opportunity to take down the plane"
Don't you see a flaw in your thinking?
Hint: we have great neighbor Russia, that has a lot of weapons.
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