|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
posted August 21, 2014 06:29 PM |
|
|
verriker said:
PROJ said:
The people on this forum are a SMALL, SMALL minority of actual people that play these games, and they've shown time and time again that they are not capable of intelligent criticism when it comes to art or game design.
Thanks for this enlightening remark, PROJ! I'm sure you'll go far here at HC! 
I don't need to go far, but people need to face reality.
Most gamers do not browse a game's forums. This is a consistent theme across the industry. The idea that a majority of people obviously care deeply about town screens has almost no evidence to support it.
If you want to point out some actual intelligent discussion on game design (or art, although game design is my forte) here, I'd be more than willing to read it, but it's very few and far between. I know english isn't a first language for a lot of people, but that doesn't excuse extremely poor logic.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 06:30 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 18:54, 21 Aug 2014.
|
Even though solid gameplay is indispensable to any HoMM's game replayability, townscreens still are an important part of the game.
Here are just for posterity all "Humans" townscreens so far.
Although I second the point about "gorgeous" towncreens being implemented in some, boring, when not unplayable game, I strongly agree that they are crucial to immersion. When you look at the townscreen, you instantly know in which kind of universe you are and the kind of line-up you will get, from pure medieval H1-H2 to complete holy H6 in the Castle/Haven town example.
Now about H7's current townscreen, I wouldn't get a grail, and I would have preferred more on the medieval theme, but if the game is good, it will do just fine
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 06:31 PM |
|
|
Galaad, could you space each pic so they don't resize the forum?
Edit: yeah, more like this, thank you
Edit2: you inserted H5 wrongly though.
____________
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 06:31 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 18:49, 21 Aug 2014.
|
Storm-Giant said:
Galaad, could you space each pic so they don't resize the forum?
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 06:48 PM |
|
|
Now is ok
blob2 said:
I have a the best piece of advice for Limbic:
If they are using the voting model why not do this:
Take two or three artist, make them draw their vision of townscreens, and let people vote. I think implementing a trigger-able piece of artwork is not that hard, while UI is probably already completed...
Of course some people will complain about the voting, but hey, that's how democracy works, the majority rule 
Too much work too little money.
____________
|
|
Danny
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 07:04 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
Danny said:
Storm-Giant said:
Danny said:
Are there more than 4 towns in that Heroes Online thing? Info on that game is quite limited...
Only 2 towns (Haven & Necropolis)
But there are 4 pictures posted and I'm certain I saw a swamp-Fortress lineup in the other thread.
WAIT.
Are we talking about Heroes of Might & Magic Online or Might & Magic: Heroes Online?
They aren't the same thing!
I think the former, Chinese thing, from where those 4 pictures are posted in the original thread, including the swamp.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 07:12 PM |
|
|
Ah, then I hardly know about it. You should ask Avonu, he knows better.
In the meantime, try googling, like this
____________
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 07:42 PM |
|
Edited by Avirosb at 19:45, 21 Aug 2014.
|
PROJ said:
I know english isn't a first language for a lot of people, but that doesn't excuse extremely poor logic.
Poor logic like "you have to be a chef in order to be able to criticize food"?
Quote:
"I'm nostalgic about this kind of style even though I have no experience as an actual artist"
You need not be an artist to be able to deduce when something seems off.
|
|
dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 07:50 PM |
|
|
First, of course, I have to say something non constructive but I just cant read some of the previous posts and say nothing.
I am one of the people that were loudest to express my dissatisfaction with townscreens in H6. I am sure that if many of us didn't rise our voices we would loose townscreens in every next iteration of Heroes. I get that some people just don't care, but those people are in extreme minority.
I don't see how bugs, faulty gameplay and many poor game mechanic decisions are connected to townscreens and how time spent on those could be better spent on fixing something faulty at its core. Crucial part in all of post release mess was because Black Hole went bankrupt.
H6 introduced many changes and those prevented game from being true "heroes" as Erwan said. One change that obviously deeply disturbed many of older players are townscreens. Others such as skill system, reduced resources or creature pooling just couldn't be changed anymore. They gave us only thing they could - townscreens.
But back on topic. New screens look too washed out. Pale colors and too painting like. Too zoomed out for its size, too small (as looking more like village with few monuments or fort with decorations) and in fully built state not epic enough. Heroes V screens were the best imho.
I would suggest massive key buildings that look impressive and radiate power and architectural beauty (and are easily discerned from one another) and lots of small buildings, roads etc that make key buildings look massive and create impression of large town.
|
|
PROJ
Known Hero
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 07:55 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
PROJ said:
I know english isn't a first language for a lot of people, but that doesn't excuse extremely poor logic.
Poor logic like "you have to be a chef in order to be able to criticize food"?
you don't have to be, but it certainly helps. A chef would presumably know a lot more and be able to criticize much more effectively.
Quote:
Quote:
"I'm nostalgic about this kind of style even though I have no experience as an actual artist"
You need not be an artist to be able to deduce when something seems off.
Like I said, you don't have to be, but the people here have provided little criticism beyond the fact that it's bad because it's not like the thing from 15 years ago. They mention the perspectives are bad without good evidence, they claim that the towns don't feel "lived in" without evidence, they say the town is too distant while praising other screenshots where the town is equally distant.
The whole topic has become an echo chamber of people complaining about things they don't have a rational reason to complain about. They are being emotional and irrational.
|
|
yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 08:03 PM |
|
Edited by yogi at 21:04, 21 Aug 2014.
|
PROJ said:
Don't be so condescending.
I'm sorry if you feel I'm being condescending, but it's only because you are being childish and insulting, contributing absolutely nothing to the topic at hand. Seriously, just try and be constructive, or go make better use of your time elsewhere, and stop wasting this community's. This is an extremely valid and well versed thread, that will hopefully help the devs improve the game that we all obviously love. If you have nothing to contribute then please stop diluting the thread.
PROJ said:
Most of your post is just quote mining from a bunch of people that have no substance to any of their criticisms other than "it's not like how it was before!" and posting pictures. Your post has no substance, no discussion of actual art, just subjective, overly nit-picky, and contradictory nonsense. I'll let you find out how many inconsistencies you have in your original post.
I don't need to re-read a post I wrote, but I did anyway, and it still seems like you haven't read it yet. The ONLY subjective bit in the OP is a quote by red_flag; the rest is quite detailed and constructive. I'll summarize a little for you: folks discussed the sporadic placement, varied angles and perspectives, and contradictory sizes of buildings, the lack of organization and cohesion expected in a town layout, the inconsistent shadowing, the distant and impersonal view in which the towns are displayed, the lack of support dwellings typical of cities and towns, the uniqueness afforded by just swapping out the landscape backgrounds, the usefulness of a functional UI overriding the need for static images, the lack of liveliness or sense that the towns are inhabited, the non-uniform and fragmented feeling that permeates the images overall, and so on. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but unless it's constructive, keep it to yourself. If you want to point out any inconsistencies in the OP, feel free to, it would probably be the biggest contribution you've made to the thread yet.
PROJ said:
It's not apparent that a majority of people really care that much about townscreens. The people on this forum are a SMALL, SMALL minority of actual people that play these games, and they've shown time and time again that they are not capable of intelligent criticism when it comes to art or game design.
How judgmental of you. This community, the very existence of these forums, has done nothing but great services for this franchise. If anybody is demonstrating an incapability for an intelligent discussion regarding art and game design it's you. Why are you here if this community is so useless? Your posts are not only 100% non-constructive, they are insulting, and derailing the thread. If you have nothing to contribute that might help the devs improve the game then stop posting.
Regardless, I'll repeat myself, how much importance the player base places on the town screens is quite apparent FROM THE FACT THAT UBI AND LIMBIC SPENT GOOD RESOURCES REINTRODUCING THEM IN H6. Do the caps help?
Quote:
My posts are constructive in the sense that I'm telling you this post is pointless (no sane devs are going to listen to this weak and vague criticism, and with good reason).
If anything is weakening the thread it's your posts, they aren't constructive in the least. I'm beginning to think that you are a troll with way too much time on their hands, and again ask that you please keep your arrogant opinions to yourself.
Honestly, I've wasted enough valuable time replying to your posts, I wouldn't bother responding if I were you.
____________
yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 08:05 PM |
|
|
PROJ said:
you don't have to be, but it certainly helps. A chef would presumably know a lot more and be able to criticize much more effectively.
And I'm sure the "chef" in charge could have done a much better job were it not for pesky deadlines.
Quote:
They mention the perspectives are bad without good evidence
The pictures themselves are good evidence.
If you don't care about the finer details then more power to you.
|
|
yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 08:19 PM |
|
Edited by yogi at 21:02, 21 Aug 2014.
|
PROJ said:
They mention the perspectives are bad without good evidence, they claim that the towns don't feel "lived in" without evidence,
the evidence is rather apparent in the images themselves: as much as you claim that people are being emotional and irrational, they are not making their criticisms up out of thin air.
PROJ said:
they say the town is too distant while praising other screenshots where the town is equally distant.
it is quite possible to criticize an aspect of one picture, and praise another for completely different reasons.
i pointed this out right below the images.
____________
yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
|
|
unicornblood
Hired Hero
Learning Human Soul
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 08:44 PM |
|
|
Does anyone notice how the Haven town screen is flushed with "light" which basically means you can't actually tell what's in the thing people here call "painting"?
Other than that, the structure is lacking. Big time. Think dwellings for each and every one of the creatures - I'm talking freakin' 8 DIFFERENT types of buildings that need to be distinguishable from one another AND have some sort of tie with the creatures they produce. Add the tavern, marketplace, blacksmith, capitol and everything below it, castle and everything below it, mage/magic guild (basically towers that get an extra spire with each level, plus reinterpretation for each style a particular faction is designed into); some extra buildings that provide abilities and creature growth would also be nice and, for Heaven's sake, position the bloody feathered dragon in the f*cking middle of town so that it stands out, but, at the same time, it doesn't take the eyes off the rest - maybe a bit smaller?!
Heroes V townscreens in 3D were splendid to behold, had no functionality whatsoever, but they were deeply immersive and that just about did the job for me, for every faction. At the same time, they were designed on a circular basis - every faction had a "centerpiece" around which the rest would unfold and develop nicely, the town growing evenly in every direction.
I can't say much about Heroes VI. The town windows would have done the trick were you actually able to see every building in there, but all you got was one same shot of a building that basically remained the same. I played the game through with the town windows, so when I went back for the screens the only one that stuck to my memory was Sanctuary's (I'm simple - I loved the faction because it was the closest to my beloved Sylvan and, after running through the campaigns, I only played for fun i.e. multiplayer). It's irrelevant, I prefer using buttons to recruit creatures and heroes rather than having to click a specific building to do so.
The bonus in Heroes VI was the fact that you could see your town develop from the outside and that pretty much erased anything I thought about the town screens. They need to be well-balanced and realistic (or, maybe, in 3D) and, other than that, it's the 21st century - use the buttons!
|
|
verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 08:56 PM |
|
|
aside from the obvious explanation of being measly cheapskates, I don't understand why Ubisoft couldn't have just asked the guys who made their announcement trailer to produce some nice, high quality renders for each town in the style of Heroes 3
NWC managed this effortlessly like 15 years ago in 1999, is it really so much to ask lol
town screens are considered important by the fanbase, and whoever tries to insist on denying or downplaying that was clearly living under a rock for the massive community ****storm of H6
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 09:14 PM |
|
|
I think this thread has sparked a good, if somewhat heated, discussion. I personally think that PROJ is right in so far that while it's relevant to criticize what we are not satisfied with, we also need to give constructive ideas as to how they can be improved.
Personally, I have seen the following specific comments which I find relevant:
- Colours are too dull and not enough contrast. Might be caused by the mist which is reported to be a bug.
- Buildings are too uniform in size and important buildings like creature dwellings don't stand out
- Town lacks houses and non-militaristic buildings that actually make them feel lived-in and not just like a collection of military buildings
- Town lacks interesting architectural elements that catch the eye
- There are some perspective issues like the draw-bridge being completely out of scale compared to the stairs leading to the upper city
- The fact that town is seen from outside the walls and walls featuring so prominently in the image makes it feel like one is outside of town instead of inside of it (H6 towns all had this same issue)
|
|
dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 09:32 PM |
|
|
|
Alcibiades post hit nail on the head!
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 09:42 PM |
|
|
dark-whisperer said:
Alcibiades post hit nail on the head!
Hear, Hear!
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
Kivo
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 09:48 PM |
|
|
alcibiades said:
I think this thread has sparked a good, if somewhat heated, discussion. I personally think that PROJ is right in so far that while it's relevant to criticize what we are not satisfied with, we also need to give constructive ideas as to how they can be improved.
Personally, I have seen the following specific comments which I find relevant:
- Colours are too dull and not enough contrast. Might be caused by the mist which is reported to be a bug.
- Buildings are too uniform in size and important buildings like creature dwellings don't stand out
- Town lacks houses and non-militaristic buildings that actually make them feel lived-in and not just like a collection of military buildings
- Town lacks interesting architectural elements that catch the eye
- There are some perspective issues like the draw-bridge being completely out of scale compared to the stairs leading to the upper city
- The fact that town is seen from outside the walls and walls featuring so prominently in the image makes it feel like one is outside of town instead of inside of it (H6 towns all had this same issue)
I would also add a point on shadow issues and buildings being "copied & pasted" onto the backgroud. The H7 townscreens have the same problem as the h6 ones, but seriously I don't know whether I should laugh or cry at the H6 Haven Townsceen wrong shadows. Some aren't even present.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted August 21, 2014 09:59 PM |
|
|
dark-whisperer said:
Alcibiades post hit nail on the head!
Indeed
____________
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
