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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 06:51 PM |
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Clegaw, you bring out a nice point in this case... balance is a point of view. Or methods of safekeeping it.
Necromancers like to think that their service of Asha justifies using the undead, allowing them to bend the rules since they follow the "higher variant of rules." Are they right? Or are they just hypocrites?
Some necromancers (not only Sandro) are more than willing to call out the whole cult thing as death fearing wizards trying to find a purpose thing. I think it was one of the conversations between Vein and Ludmilla?
Lets be clear, i don't have the Ashan compendium or precise lore material here, but the lore never states that Necromancy is the right way of keeping the balance, its the necromancers who are saying that.
About Asha having too many domains... well Asha is based on the concepts of triune/trinity goddesses: The whole Maiden, Mother, Crone; Birth, Life, Death concept. Fate is often seen as an aspect of those deities (lets remember the greek Moirai or Norse norns). So mythology is doing that thing first.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 26, 2015 07:28 PM |
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You people really put too much thought into this, MUCH more than the creator of the concept has ever invested in it. Here is how it worked:
Boss guy X (Erwan, probably): OK people, we need to make stuff original because people are too used to the same old concept with the evil undead. Ideas?
Bad brainstormed employee: But there's nothing wrong with evil undead if they are presented well, with cleverly built characters and background. Sandro...
Indecisive brainstormed employee: Well, it's true that Necropolis needs to be refreshed... Then again undead don't look exactly like good guys... I don't know, maybe mix the ingredients and see what happens.
Heroic brainstormed employee: I know, I know - let's make them neutral and add some philosophy behind that neutrality so it looks natural!
Boss guy X: I like your idea, Hero! One moment, let me write it down... How do you spell philosophy? Never mind. I think I have already figured it all out. We'll associate the undead with one of the Dragons gods but we'll turn everything upside down! Genius, eh?
Bad employee: Didn't we already do that with... ehm... all other factions? Doesn't look very original to be...
Boss guy X: Oh shut up, you have no imagination! What are you doing here anyway, with your evil undead? That's so last century. Undead can be decent guys too you necrophobe! Now, about the dragons...
... and so the politically correct Necropolis was born. Everything else is a by-product.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 07:47 PM |
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i'm trying to focus on perspective of gods since it is what i value, because i see whole ashan concept as a product of their existance.. their doings.. conflicts and such between them creating the meaning of ashan universe. necromencers, are just like many other things, are just results of this. so my method is to going to core elements, so i/we may get this/(or)fix this.
Bending higher or lower rules, is basically means toying with order and it also means interruption, an interruption to existing order.. and in this case this also applies to balance.
so this three-faces turn to each other constantly, and destroying itself like they gone insane under influence of urgash, aka chaos.
why? because, bending balance to maintain balance, is just same as having sex for virginity. if there is allready balance amongst creation then why its getting interfered with? even smallest interfere(or need for an interfere) means that balance was never even there at the beginning. and thinking backwards, if theres a balance, then why beings of creation and even god of fate is interfering to it?
now, about ashan necromancers, they may believe somethings or not and this beliefs may be true or false, but important thing in here is, they gain power through goddess or they are being approved by their goddess. the connection between the sacred spiders and ashas spider aspect proves it.
so again, how come asha breaks life & death cycle, the very essance of balance, her own invention? this doesnt make any sense.
undeads are timeless because they are outside of this cycle. they are downright the acctual reason of no balance. such thing as this, is an unnatural state, it is out of control so it is also fate breaker.
and coming to last thing, directly or indirectly, effecting events in universe means having a side in conflicts which doesnt make sense with being neutral.
isnt balance symbol of perfection? how come an undead, the being outside of cycle, represents balance-perfection?
its too messy, and i still fail to get them together in one logial piece.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 08:25 PM |
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Xenofex, your idea looks realistic enough 
cleglaw, I'll try it again.
First of all, its the Necro themselves who think they are pefection, keepers of balance etc. They have a point - they're outside the cycle, who's better suited for overseeing it? - but no one appointed them to this job. It's just their point of view.
Then, Asha (the real Asha) doesn't even think about Necro. She's carefully neutral, even to Orcs. The Mother Namtaru is Asha's nightmares given flesh. She's not even "true" Asha-Death, but certainly possesses god-like power. They don't get their power from Asha, but from Mother Namtaru.
Actually, Undead are out from Fate's grisp, Sandro, Vein, Belketh said it. Ghouls are out even from the cycle of rebirth. It's Necro who think they're balance-perfection.
And there's no perfect Balance in Asha's work at all. Because Chaos exists. And Order + Chaos form cosmic Balance.
I hope I made it all clear.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 08:46 PM |
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the difference between asha, real asha, namtaru madde some sense. thank you. i ll think about this.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 08:46 PM |
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About this whole undead and balance thing:
I think it is actually fitting for them.I mean the undeads were always special for their lack of morale,because of their lack of feelings.
Feelings lead to irrational actions,which creates disorder.
Then there is the fact that death is the only thing that every living being experiences,thus it is the only constant among all living beings.
Not to mention that death is basically the only thing that is eternal and inescapable.
The undead being the one who worship asha,the creator of the dragon gods is actually rather fitting,I mean sure most of the undead are humans,but there is technically nothing that prevents from the existence of undead dwarves,elves,etc.
Thus they are the only "race" that can consist of all the other races.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 08:52 PM |
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cleglaw said:
the difference between asha, real asha, namtaru madde some sense. thank you. i ll think about this.
You're welcome
Greenlore said:
The undead being the one who worship asha,the creator of the dragon gods is actually rather fitting,I mean sure most of the undead are humans,but there is technically nothing that prevents from the existence of undead dwarves,elves,etc.
Thus they are the only "race" that can consist of all the other races.
There're Undead Elves (Luna) and even an Angel (Belketh) already 
Not the only one. Academy too. Belketh was a Wizard before becoming the first Necromancer.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Lawmaker
Hired Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 08:56 PM |
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In the end of it, Ashan is still a young concept that can be really interesting if done correctly.
I love the fact that there is a reason for almost everything in that world unlike the old heroes games where everything was almost random. The thing about a new fictional world, is that anything can happen and we have seen it already.
Necros are not always bad and the haven are not always good. Even the Inferno(kiril) can be good sometimes. This is what i love about this world...less cliche than other game worlds
I still have hope for Ashan
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 26, 2015 08:57 PM |
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Lawmaker said:
In the end of it, Ashan is still a young concept
Dude H5 is from 2006
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 26, 2015 09:01 PM |
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Galaad said:
Dude H5 is from 2006
Not even counting (Pre)production.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 26, 2015 09:05 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Xenofex, your idea looks realistic enough
cleglaw, I'll try it again.
First of all, its the Necro themselves who think they are pefection, keepers of balance etc. They have a point - they're outside the cycle, who's better suited for overseeing it? - but no one appointed them to this job. It's just their point of view.
Then, Asha (the real Asha) doesn't even think about Necro. She's carefully neutral, even to Orcs. The Mother Namtaru is Asha's nightmares given flesh. She's not even "true" Asha-Death, but certainly possesses god-like power. They don't get their power from Asha, but from Mother Namtaru.
Actually, Undead are out from Fate's grisp, Sandro, Vein, Belketh said it. Ghouls are out even from the cycle of rebirth. It's Necro who think they're balance-perfection.
And there's no perfect Balance in Asha's work at all. Because Chaos exists. And Order + Chaos form cosmic Balance.
I hope I made it all clear.
But if they are about balance (order+chaos) they would tolerate demons and they would not oppose them that much. But that is not case - H5 Arantir. Now when I mention Arantir, was he not Asha's chosen in battling demons? How can you say that Asha doesn't think about necro? 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 09:09 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
But if they are about balance (order+chaos) they would tolerate demons and they would not oppose them that much. But that is not case - H5 Arantir. Now when I mention Arantir, was he not Asha's chosen in battling demons? How can you say that Asha doesn't think about necro?
They're about Balance, but they're not counting Chaos in. Chaos is the enemy of Order and they think Order is the Balance. Dragon Knights, on the other hand, count Chaos in. They have much broader vision of Balance. Btw, Malassa too knows that Chaos is needed as explained in 50 Shades of Purple.
Remind me, did Asha descend from the sky and told everyone "He is My Chosen" or was it Arantir who was blabbering about it every moment?
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Lawmaker
Hired Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 09:11 PM |
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When i mean young i meant the ingame timeline. From the events of heroes 6(earliest period we have witnessed) to heroes 5(latest) only about 3.5 centuries have passed, and between these years we dont really have a lot of info.
We don't know what happened before or after the games. And if creation started in 0 and h6 in 563, we have about 300-400 years worth of exploring and who knows what will happen after h5 and Dark messiah events. So the World of Ashan is still fairly young(info wise) and have a lot more that can be added
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 26, 2015 09:13 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Remind me, did Asha descend from the sky and told everyone "He is My Chosen" or was it Arantir who was blabbering about it every moment?
I guess only Elrath and Arkath are irresponsible enough to go all deus ex machina on the poor planet lol
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 26, 2015 09:14 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
They're about Balance, but they're not counting Chaos in. Chaos is the enemy of Order and they think Order is the Balance. Dragon Knights, on the other hand, count Chaos in. They have much broader vision of Balance. Btw, Malassa too knows that Chaos is needed as explained in 50 Shades of Purple.
Remind me, did Asha descend from the sky and told everyone "He is My Chosen" or was it Arantir who was blabbering about it every moment?
Was it necessary for Asha to came upon Ashan to say that, or was Qujin's (the woman shaman in H5 TOTE) vision of a spider enough? Now it is no longer just Arantir's blabering.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 26, 2015 09:20 PM |
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If Asha is order and everything good on Ashan and her nightmares were inflicted by Urgash (chaos, evil, whatever) and the namtaru is Ashas nightmare, wouldn't the namtaru be more in line with urgash, indirectly making the necromancers evil urgash-worshippers? And if Sandro tried to remove/kill the namtaru, wouldn't that make him a good guy since he pretty much tried spoiling the plans of this worlds "satan"?
...i'm confused.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 26, 2015 09:27 PM |
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Lawmaker said:
When i mean young i meant the ingame timeline. From the events of heroes 6(earliest period we have witnessed) to heroes 5(latest) only about 3.5 centuries have passed, and between these years we dont really have a lot of info.
No it is not, we have all the necesary info. Ubisoft has published a book about that. Even when they announced Heroes 5, they gave a brief timeline explaining all important happenings in history, even the important history before the year 0.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 26, 2015 09:28 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
If Asha is order and everything good on Ashan and her nightmares were inflicted by Urgash (chaos, evil, whatever) and the namtaru is Ashas nightmare, wouldn't the namtaru be more in line with urgash, indirectly making the necromancers evil urgash-worshippers? And if Sandro tried to remove/kill the namtaru, wouldn't that make him a good guy since he pretty much tried spoiling the plans of this worlds "satan"?
...i'm confused.
Same here...
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 09:31 PM |
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verriker said:
I guess only Elrath and Arkath are irresponsible enough to go all deus ex machina on the poor planet lol
Other Elemental Dragons too. It's Asha who's neutral.
Sleeping_Sun said:
Was it necessary for Asha to came upon Ashan to say that, or was Qujin's (the woman shaman in H5 TOTE) vision of a spider enough? Now it is no longer just Arantir's blabering.
Citating:
Last symbol was a spider, dead but not dead. She cut the web of demon lies spinning over our world. Batu said, "Orcs will meet a Spider wearing the face of a man. This Spinner will help us save Mother Earth… as Orcs have done before! She didn't say he's Asha's Chosen.
And, in the end, it's her vision. Nothing more, nothing less.
And if Mother Namtaru is alive at the time of H5, then Qujin maybe was reffering to her.
kiryu133 said:
If Asha is order and everything good on Ashan and her nightmares were inflicted by Urgash (chaos, evil, whatever) and the namtaru is Ashas nightmare, wouldn't the namtaru be more in line with urgash, indirectly making the necromancers evil urgash-worshippers? And if Sandro tried to remove/kill the namtaru, wouldn't that make him a good guy since he pretty much tried spoiling the plans of this worlds "satan"?
...i'm confused.
Those nightmares, imo, aren't "chaotic". He just cursed her with nightmares of that grand war, not that he induced them. Malassa drained them and they became MN. Now, as I said, MN isn't even "true" Asha-Death. but she is quite sentient and allies herself with Asha.
And somehow it makes sense that her venom can help one escape from Fate.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 26, 2015 09:33 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
If Asha is order and everything good on Ashan and her nightmares were inflicted by Urgash (chaos, evil, whatever) and the namtaru is Ashas nightmare, wouldn't the namtaru be more in line with urgash, indirectly making the necromancers evil urgash-worshippers? And if Sandro tried to remove/kill the namtaru, wouldn't that make him a good guy since he pretty much tried spoiling the plans of this worlds "satan"?
...i'm confused.
That the nightmares were inflicted by Urgash does not mean that the embodiment nightmares itself are a being of Chaos. That part was either never there, or it was purged from it when Shalassa and Malassa removed it from Asha.
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