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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 26, 2015 10:49 PM |
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cleglaw said:
Hi Marzhin! Can you enlighten us about asha-MN-urgash we discussed?
I think Sandro400 has the gist of it. Is there something specific you'd like me to clarify?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 10:53 PM |
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verriker said:
well it's very cool that you managed to merge the universes, not so cool that Mister Le Breton is still trying to veto a continuation of JVC's story with the Ancients, but I'm sure he won't be running the franchise forever (unless he really is a lich like the ones he created lol)
I think its not by chance that links started to appear after Marzhin joined M&M team. I think there're 2 reasons of Erwan's veto:
1) At the time of H5 they didn't had anybody who was well-versed in the old universe. So they could have ruined it and earn the hate of old-school fans. Better to start over. Less rage.
2) Ashan is indeed Erwan's world and as an artist I can understand him - maybe he wants to do something that's not cliche and is interesting enough. And you know what? Those who aren't, well... subject to nostalgia enjoy post-H5 Ashan 
Though I personally would like both worlds to develop separately (which was partially done in H6). I give Ancient universe the respect it deserves, but I'm not a fan of sci-fi.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 26, 2015 10:56 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:01, 26 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
maybe he wants to do something that's not cliche and is interesting enough. And you know what?
But most of Ashan is cliche, often unoriginal and uninteresting at least in my opinion.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 10:56 PM |
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Marzhin said:
cleglaw said:
Hi Marzhin! Can you enlighten us about asha-MN-urgash we discussed?
I think Sandro400 has the gist of it. Is there something specific you'd like me to clarify?
i wonder if urgash has an ongoing effect on MN, such as using her as tool or something. 
am i being too curious/paranoid?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 11:03 PM |
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Gryphs said:
Sandro400 said:
maybe he wants to do something that's not cliche and is interesting enough. And you know what?
But most of Ashan is cliche and often unoriginal and uninteresting at least in my opinion.
Well, here we disagree in opinions. Vanilla H5 was terrible indeed though, there I won't argue. And Ashan suffered much from that first impression.
Now, tbh, I have seen many negative comments about Ashan's visual style (mostly "they stole X from Y game"), but not so much about stories (let's forget H5, ok?), the world etc. Surely those who're too conservative dislike everything 
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 26, 2015 11:04 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 23:04, 26 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
2) Ashan is indeed Erwan's world and as an artist I can understand him - maybe he wants to do something that's not cliche and is interesting enough.
could be,
or, as the evidence of H5 suggests, perhaps he just wanted to turn Might and Magic into a Warhammer clone before Games Workshop vetoed him in turn lol
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 11:10 PM |
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verriker said:
could be,
or, as the evidence of H5 suggests, perhaps he just wanted to turn Might and Magic into a Warhammer clone before Games Workshop vetoed him in turn lol
Good joke!
Though back in the day he wasn't so powerful... and following your version, if GW hadn't vetoed him and Heroes became WH clone, he woudn't have risen to power and make H6's art-style 
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 26, 2015 11:12 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:13, 26 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Now, tbh, I have seen many negative comments about Ashan's visual style (mostly "they stole X from Y game"), but not so much about stories (let's forget H5, ok?), the world etc. Surely those who're too conservative dislike everything
If you take away H5 we have Heroes 6 attempt to be Song of Ice and Fire which was also not original. But that is not all that is unispired Dragon Gods, Elemental magic divisions, the races(though that is to be expected) have all been done before, some in more interesting ways. I also am not conservative as I never cared for the old universe to begin with.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 26, 2015 11:17 PM |
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cleglaw said:
i wonder if urgash has an ongoing effect on MN, such as using her as tool or something.
No, the Mother Namtaru is an avatar of the darkest parts of Asha's psyche, but I don't think Chaos has any influence on it.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 11:23 PM |
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Gryphs said:
If you take away H5 we have Heroes 6 attempt to be Song of Ice and Fire which was also not original. But that is not all that is unispired Dragon Gods, Elemental magic divisions, the races(though that is to be expected) have all been done before, some in more interesting ways. I also am not conservative as I never cared for the old universe to begin with.
If writers were inspired by something (and they said themselves somewhere that they took inspiration from SoIaF) it doesn't mean they'll just copy-paste it. I enjoyed H6's storyline a lot and think it was very good. Definitely I don't like some characters (Anastasya, Anton) but I at least feel something for them. One is a whining girl, another - just stupid fancy boy. BUT their stories were good, that's important for me.
I disagree about Dragon Gods (quite good concept), Elemental magic division, actually, adds to 4 classic ones Light and Darkness and Primordial above them all.
The races (or, should I say, the factions) and their portrayal are one of my favourite things in this world. Again, if we're talking about the lore, not the graphics. No pure good/evil, even Demons are portrayed not as evil, but as chaotic.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 11:24 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 23:25, 26 Jan 2015.
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@Marzhin
thanks i think it would have been cool to have a secret chaos influence on MN that hasnt revealed yet.
...like a diseased battle wound to remain... affecting MN to not act like a exact part of asha, and eventually help urgash with its actions unknowingly.
but its just me.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 26, 2015 11:37 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:41, 26 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
If writers were insired by something (and they said themselves somewhere that they took inspiration from SoIaF) it doesn't mean they'll just copy-paste it.
To me the story felt so close at times it seemed like bad paraphrasing, the characters to me were poor imitations of characters from SoIaF in their personalities. If you look at the M&M portal each faction even has its own words not something I would not call that original.
Sandro400 said:
Definitely I don't like some characters (Anastasya, Anton) but I at least feel something for them. One is a whining girl, another - just stupid fancy boy. BUT there're stories were good, that's important for me.
It is hard to make me care for characters and they failed horribly but this is just a personal thing really.
Sandro400 said:
I disagree about Dragon Gods (quite good concept), Elemental magic division, actually, adds to 4 classic ones Light and Darkness and Primordial above them all.
The races (or, should I say, the factions) and their portrayal are one of my favourite things in this world. Again, if we're talking about the lore, not the graphics.
I never said these were bad but had been used before often a lot and in more interesting ways than Ashan currently does.
Sandro400 said:
No pure good/evil, even Demons are portrayed not as evil, but as chaotic.
But they act evil without a sentimental chord in their body it is even said as much in the demon's page on the blog.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 26, 2015 11:52 PM |
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Gryphs said:
To me the story felt so close it seemed like bad paraphrasing, the characters to me were poor mirrors of characters from SoIaF. If you look at the M&M portal each faction even has its own words not something I would call original.
Em, it may be unoriginal, but what's the perfect way to illustrate a faction in few words? Using their motto. I don't think such thing should be judged from originality perspective.
Gryphs said:
It is hard to make me care for characters and they failed horribly but this is just a personal opinion really.
Yeah, let's not start war of opinions
Gryphs said:
I never said these were bad but had been used before often a lot and in more interesting ways than Ashan currently does.
Dragon God system? So many times?
I dare say that Magic system as in Ashan is rather unique. 4 classical schools (let's not confuse classical for original, or else Vampires, Elves, Magic itself are sooo cliche) + L&D + Prime (Order, Chaos, Void).
About Factions... most of them are classical from Heroes (except for Dwarves and Nagas), so they're like a must-have. And all have good background, many sub-factions.
Gryphs said:
But they act evil without a sentimental chord in their body it is even said as much in the demon's page on the blog.
Would you call them evil? Good and evil are such Elrathian consepts (c) Kaspar.
Demons are Chaos. They kill because they can, they want. If they don't want, they don't kill. Sure, for us murder itself is evil, but for Demons it's not. If Demons wants to save somebody, he saves.
Azkaal from H6 was gorgeous demon, even possessing some kind of honor.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 27, 2015 12:07 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Em, it may be unoriginal, but what's the perfect way to illustrate a faction in few words? Using their motto. I don't think such thing should be judged from originality perspective.
Yes, but they said they were inspired by SoIaF in Heroes 6 how convenient they started using them in Heroes 6 it just to me at least shows them attempting to make Heroes there version of SoIaF.
Sandro400 said:
Dragon God system? So many times?
I dare say that Magic system as in Ashan is rather unique. 4 classical schools (let's not confuse classical for original, or else Vampires, Elves, Magic itself are sooo cliche) + L&D + Prime (Order, Chaos, Void).
About Factions... most of them are classical from Heroes (except for Dwarves and Nagas), so they're like a must-have. And all have good background, many sub-factions.
I do not have a problem with the factions as they are staples from the beginning. The Dragon Gods is not the most done thing but I have seen it before, done better. The Elemental magic has been done in many other universes, and to me got rid of a more interesting system.
Sandro400 said:
Would you call them evil? Good and evil are such Elrathian consepts (c) Kaspar.
Demons are Chaos. They kill because they can, they want. If they don't want, they don't kill. Sure, for us murder itself is evil, but for Demons it's not. If Demons wants to save somebody, he saves.
Azkaal from H6 was gorgeous demon, even possessing some kind of honor.
You have me on this as I could never get myself to finish the demon campaign.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 27, 2015 12:07 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
Azkaal from H6 was gorgeous demon, even possessing some kind of honor.
He was more then a gorgeous demon to me. He was one of the most likable and complex characters. Not only in the game, but on Ashan in general. If there is one fond memory of H6 I have, It's him.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 12:15 AM |
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i agree with you guys, azkaal was a remarkable character.
even now i still remember some words from him.
btw his voice acting was really good too.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 27, 2015 12:17 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Yes, but they said they were inspired by SoIaF in Heroes 6 how convenient they started using them in Heroes 6 it just to me at least shows them attempting to make Heroes there version of SoIaF.
Em, to tell you the truth, they used mottos even back in H5 era...
Gryphs said:
I do not have a problem with the factions as they are staples from the beginning. The Dragon Gods is not the most done thing but I have seen it before, done better. The Elemental magic has been done in many other universes, and to me got rid of a more interesting system.
Actually, Dragon God idea comes from Chinese mythology I think. So nothing is original!
4 Elemental magic schools are practically a staple as well.
Dave_Jame said:
He was more then a gorgeous demon to me. He was one of the most likable and complex characters. Not only in the game, but on Ashan in general. If there is one fond memory of H6 I have, It's him.
What can I say.
+100500, I hope we see him in the future.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted January 27, 2015 12:41 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 00:41, 27 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Em, to tell you the truth, they used mottos even back in H5 era...
Yes, but random shouts of "Griffin Eternal" are not the same as what they did in H6 where all factions gain a motto eerily similar in structure and use to the noble house mottos Of SoIaF.
Sandro400 said:
Actually, Dragon God idea comes from Chinese mythology I think. So nothing is original!
True you can say that about most things in every fantasy world ever. What I mean is the difference between using an already used idea in a new and refreshing way or in a bland uninteresting way and that is what I feel in Ashan's Dragon Gods.
Sandro400 said:
4 Elemental magic schools are practically a staple as well.
Of Heroes 3 yes but I prefer the systems of H4 and H5 so going back to the elemental system seems to me a downgrade.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 02:20 AM |
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Two matters I would like to address with regards to a potential reboot:
Solidarity or Stagnation?
Personally, I don't mind Ashan's lore all that much, but there are two particular factors that really hinder the story's potential, and both stem to the singular issue of "unification." Ashan, in my eyes, is TOO united! What do I mean by that?
1) Empires
By all accounts, there is a single human empire in the entire world. Yes, there are a couple free cities, but they never amount to anything. If you are fighting human units, you are fighting against the Holy Falcon/Griffin/Unicorn Empire. Sure, there are a few regional lords governing the individual duchies and sometimes they squabble, but then the emperor puts his foot down and settles matters.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like petty kingdoms... realms with only a small sphere of influence. The smaller and more numerous the kingdoms are, the more perilous it seems when they fall one by one. Alliances seems more and more valuable, assuming we even go that far. Cultures can vary - one realm might have a chill attitude with the undead and defend them against would-be inquisitions; another might be populated entirely by wizards; another might fall into civil war and the rest of the world doesn't blink an eye... there's so much more variance that can exist while still having a set flavour to the individual towns.
Conversely, what do we get in Ashan? Emperor this, Elrath that, the same bloodlines over and over, light light griffin light. Which brings me to my next point:
2) Religion
I have zero problems with fantasy religions existing in fantasy worlds. I have no problem with certain religions holding a lot of sway and influence. What I do have a problem with is when every single facet of their culture seems to revolve around religion. Elrath and his light are more omnipresent than lens flares in the recent Star Trek films! That's not even getting into the heavy spider motif of Necropolis. Still, even the other factions seem to suffer from this. All wizards are apparently atheists. Sanctuary's culture is entirely built around their water-themed religion. Sylvan is as hippy as you get. Even with the orcs, you can barely go fifteen minutes without Mother Earth or Father Sky being mentioned in passing.
I'm not bothered with having particular religious units set to individual factions, but even then, I think the specifics of what that religion entails should be more ambiguous. Haven might have priests wielding light magic, but do they serve the same god with the same teachings? Strongholds might have shamans, but shamans of what? Even necromancer cults can be vague enough in their specific motivations, at least in random map fluff text.
And speaking of necromancers...
The Allure of Evil
I know there's a lot of you that think Necropolis should be on the "evil" side of the fence, and I can totally understand why. Necromancy tends to be very creepy, unsettling, and even defiling. With that said... what's the appeal in-universe? Why would any willing person join such a detestable group? There can't be THAT many macabre folks out there who just think "OMG zombies are so cool! I wanna be a lich to control them!" Even if there was, I highly doubt the rest of the land is going to sit there and let them run amok without consequence.
In my eyes, there needs to be an allure to evil. That little bit of corruption that seems appealing on a mass scale, not just to a niche group. Other factions don't have as much of a problem with this. Dungeon, for example; "power" is the word of the day, and whether you are a mad spellcaster or a warlord who can overwhelm any insubordinate troop, the raw notion of "power", be it physical, magical, or social, can be an appealing prospect to virtual anyone.
So where does that leave Necropolis? Why put up with or join the undead? Perhaps they can serve - or at least, seem - like cheap mercenaries who need little pay, save for maybe a magical artifact, a few pints of blood, or some fresh peasant bodies to replenish their numbers. Immortality is another good idea, but not everyone is so afraid of death as to sacrifice their good looks. How can we work in vampires to satisfy both the "pretty boy" and "Nosferatu" crowds? Alternate forms, perhaps, with "pretty" vampires briefly morphing into more monstrous forms during their attack animation... or maybe their upgrade turns them more monstrous, as the converts either stop caring about their vanity at this point or didn't anticipate such a payoff.
In any case, I get the people who want Necropolis to be more grotesque, but I personally feel that there should be juuuust enough glamour to draw in "outsiders", both in and out of universe.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 06:51 AM |
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Now, it's clear that "Might & Magic" (Ashan) is supposed to be a whole gaming world for Ubisoft, in which all kind of games and stuff are supposed to be taking place, catering to a lot of gamers who like a lot of different games, so some kind of uniformity is necessary and to be expected.
But you know what the problem is?
Ashan is just not COOL. Main problem: the whole franchise is taking itself way too serious.
The inital NWC stuff got its reputation by being exactly that: COOL; it wasn't taking itself serious at all, at first; HoMM 2 is a cartoony thing that draw a lot of girls in, as a result. It had this fairy tale flavor - the same flavor, by the way, that was graphically captured very well by the initial Alpha of HoMM 5; I think, Olivier Ledroit - a well-known comic book artist - was the artist for those ... maybe Marzhin knows what went wrong there, but if you look at his alpha art, from a purely artistical point of view, with a view of where the game came from, initially, you'd have to keelhaul everyone responsible for not following up on that.
Instead, it became Heroes of Warhammer, which was a very, very big mistake - at least in my opinion.
Because now, Ashan is this beast, that desperately wants to be a grwon-up fantasy world, with this "realistic" darkish harshness, in which things are bad and can only get worse...
The problem is, that Ashan is playing in a different league than the 7 Kingdoms of Westeros and the Warhammer universe or even the World of Warcraft, and instead of "we want ourselves a world just as full of shades of grey and play with the grown-ups!", Ubisoft would have been way better of with a "it was cool once, but now it's just mainstream, let's make fun of it, behave a bit childish and be DIFFERENT".
Ashan tries, and tries hard - and the result is, it's just not cool.
NOW, however, things are hopelessly stuck. You can't just scrap it, what with all these games in the franchise, that's been firmly established! The show simply has to go on, even if it's an insipid one.
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This thread is pages long: 
