|
| Thread: Talk about Neutrals |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
posted February 07, 2015 03:31 PM |
|
Edited by Maurice at 15:34, 07 Feb 2015.
|
How important are neutrals for the game?
I'd say quite important. They actually show that the world is populated by more living (or animated) creatures than just those affiliated with a certain faction. What you can think of is a group of feral creatures as we also know them in our own world: predators like bears, wolves and the likes. Of course, you could also have more sentient beings, who simply have an aversion to being part of a faction; hobos, pirates and highwaymen fall in this category.
What is the role of a neutral creature?
For the most part, they should represent the world of Ashan at large, without adhering to a specific authority. Like I wrote above, wild animals and outcasts from society fall in this category.
As the poster before me suggested, for faction alignment purposes, each faction could have a single neutral creature that actually fits within the faction alignment. The proposed list makes a lot of sense.
How strong should a neutral creature be?
I'd say they can be anything across the spectrum, from average Core strength to Champion level strength. What might set them apart is specific abilities or strengths that cannot be found in similar creatures that are found in any town. For instance, take the Sharpshooters from Heroes 3 (AB expansion); they have no range penalties while doing quite a significant amount of damage. Or Enchanters, which boost your army at the start of every turn.
One thing that is important with respect to balancing is that they should be able to stand on their own somewhat better than faction based creatures. After all, the latter group is designed to work in synergy with other creatures within that same faction. That shouldn't be the case for neutrals (only in specific cases, perhaps).
Should they be recruitable? And what should their price/population be?
Some, most notably the sentient ones. You could think of mercenary camps, where you can recruit them. However, if they have special strengths and abilities, their numbers should be somewhat lower than normal creatures of similar level, so as to not make them a main part of your army. Rather, their number should be interesting enough to add them to your army for the special skill or ability they bring.
Wild animals should never be recruitable.
Since we have no idea yet as to how the income / expense model is going to be set up in Heroes 7, a price / population scheme cannot be determined with any accuracy. We could only speculate on this issue, which I won't do. Related to their faction-based counterparts, they should perhaps cost a little more, because of the specials they bring your army.
How many should/could there be in the game?
I'd say about 20 at least, for variety. Too few leads to too much repetition. Too much costs too much time and money to develop and balance them.
Elementals: Should we leave them out?
In my opinion, Elementals should only have a fleeting existence in the world. In a practical sense, that means you can summon them in battle, but they can't survive for extended periods of time. As such, they should never appear as random neutrals in the standard game world.
Of course, exceptions could (and I'd say, should) be made for maps that are situated in an elemental plane, a phantasmal state or perhaps in a dreamlike scenario (Heroes 6 had a few of those, too), since the standard laws of nature do not apply there. Scenario builders should also be able to add them to their maps, for specific situations, like a map object that sustains them in the standard world or something similar. Just not as "standard" neutrals on a "normal" map.
|
|
Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2015 03:55 PM |
|
|
|
I love you guys for hating the elementals with me! Go on hating!
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2015 05:31 PM |
|
|
|
I hope the mermaids return. One of the better H6 creature designs
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted February 07, 2015 06:06 PM |
|
|
Rakshasa92 said:
I love you guys for hating the elementals with me! Go on hating!
I don't hate them, I only think they've been overused. Slight difference  .
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2015 06:35 PM |
|
|
Elementals are so prevalent in fantasy.because they offer an amazing versatility without having to actually add more creatures to the world bestiary. You can make any element related creature, name it X elemental and then in the next game/book/movie make it completly different and its ok sincd its just an element with will taking shape.
I could see something like the Rusalska being the Griffin duchy name for the water elementals for example. Frankly i prefer it that way.
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2015 08:16 PM |
|
Edited by TD at 20:23, 07 Feb 2015.
|
- How important are neutrals for the game?
Hmm I don't think they are necessity, but they bring a lot of flavor to the game. Main focus should be in making faction-creatures great, after that bring neutrals to show there is life outside factions so I'd say they are of medium importance(it really depends how well other areas of the game are executed).
- What is the role of a neutral creature?
They show that not all life is from the factions and they bring variety to the game. They also allow replacing your own units with them at times so you can try different tactics and help keep game fresh.
- How strong should a neutral creature be?
If there is plenty of neutrals they should ideally range from weakest to strongest. Main focus for me would be that they are at least elite-tier strength so they offer challenge and can be considered decent units in your army. Some mega-champions would also be very welcome for challenge and keep variety between units. For example Prime-elemental, Behemoth, Mega-dragon, Jormungand(giant serpent) and Kraken could be great candidates and their size could be 3x3.
- Should they be recruitable? And what should their price/population be.
Not necessarily. Recruiting via diplomacy should always be option, but I don't think all creatures need dwelling. I think there could be dwelling for "human" units like mercenary camp that would be set at start of map to always have unit "x" there (or alternatively like in h5 random troops every week). For monsters I'd have a cave of some sort for same purpose, but not with the alternative idea from mercenary camp(same cave won't change inhabitants that often...!). With expansions they could bring some specific dwellings if resources aren't (always) so tight. For my proposed mega-champions I wouldn't give dwellings at all, I consider them too overpowered to be continuously recruitable. As for price/population I think it should be more than city produces without walls/boosts of similar strength, but less than with the said boosts. It's hard to say before actually seeing the strengths/population in the game. Neutrals should also be more expensive, but if they have affinity to faction they could even be slightly cheaper.
I would also hope place to recruit elementals from, also determined what type of elementals at start of game. I'd give 2 different elementals recruitable from single dwelling. For price I would use resources rather than gold(single rare or two commons for each elemental). Also I would force player to fight elementals guarding the place before he can recruit and give one time reward of resources(essentially combining elemental stockpile building from h5 to elemental recruitment building).
- How many should/could there be in the game.
I'd say:
2-5 Mega-champions(let's say 2-3 vanilla, 1 for each expansion)
2-3 champions
2-5 elites
2-5 cores
+elementals
Edit: I'd increase the amount of neutrals in expansions by using the alternative upgrade idea from h5. I'd love to see created alternative units added little by little to the game(few here, few there). In the final expansion these units would be introduced as the alternative-upgrades(each unit would get them of course in final expansion), until then they would have been just considered to have affinity to these factions while being neutrals.
- Elementals: Should we leave them out?
No. Some elementals should get major work(since they will/would get copied from h6 most likely).
Firstly light-elemental should be more of creature.
Secondly the fire-elemental looked somehow really stupid to me in h6. I'd use something like the modded h5 earth-elemental(was called magma-elemental)
Third I would change water elemental to be like h4 or h5 water-elemental without humanoid form.
|
|
Stormcaller
Famous Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2015 08:23 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Behemoth, Mega-dragon, Jormungand(giant serpent) and Kraken could be great candidates and their size could be 3x3.
Excellent idea. Especially regarding Kraken and Giant serpent ( provided sanctuary doesnt get something similar as a champion ).
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 08, 2015 09:24 AM |
|
|
How important are neutrals for the game?Not absolutely make-or-break critical, but very important nevertheless.
What is the role of a neutral creature?To add diversity and depth to the game.
How strong should a neutral creature be?Depends on the creature. Could be anywhere from weaker than core creatures to stronger than Champions.
Should they be recruitable? And what should their price/population be.Definitely recruitable, except for maybe a few boss creatures, and elementals. As for price and population, see previous answer.
How many should/could there be in the game.At an absolute minimum, 6 in vanilla, with 2 more in each expansion.
Elementals: Should we leave them out?No, but I do feel they should be more restricted. perhaps limiting them to spell-summoning only.
One thing I did like in H4 was the faction-tied neutrals, and I the idea would be reintroduced, not to the exclusion of having truly neutral creatures, but as an addition.
I'm also interested in the idea of terrain-specific creatures, which would get some sort of bonus from fighting on their native terrain. Maybe even a mini-faction for each terrain, sort of like elementals, which in H3 had individual dwellings, but also the conflux.
Upgradeable neutrals would be interesting too.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted February 08, 2015 11:41 AM |
|
|
GenyaArikado said:
I hope the mermaids return. One of the better H6 creature designs
I'd like them to return too. Also, they really had the Homeric touch with their abilities, one of the rare things I enjoyed in H6.
____________
|
|
Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 08, 2015 01:36 PM |
|
|
GenyaArikado said:
I hope the mermaids return. One of the better H6 creature designs
+ you like and protect Elementals...
Woman, your fantasy-level is so basic...
Watch this clip and learn:
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 08, 2015 03:50 PM |
|
|
Rakshasa92 said:
GenyaArikado said:
I hope the mermaids return. One of the better H6 creature designs
+ you like and protect Elementals...
Woman, your fantasy-level is so basic...
Watch this clip and learn:
Actually i didnt give any opinion on them, I only explained why they are used.
Frankly i generally wouldnt even address you but i need to ask: Why do you keep trying to use woman as an insult? You know im not one but i dont think being one is insulting
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted February 08, 2015 04:18 PM |
|
|
No. He's not insulting you. He most likely literaly thinks you're a woman (as did I a while ago). Which isn't strange realy, considering your avatar and your name 
|
|
GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 09, 2015 07:42 AM |
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard said:
No. He's not insulting you. He most likely literaly thinks you're a woman (as did I a while ago). Which isn't strange realy, considering your avatar and your name
No one is asking you. But since you wrote, no, he saw the post.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted February 09, 2015 10:31 AM |
|
|
GenyaArikado said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
No. He's not insulting you. He most likely literaly thinks you're a woman (as did I a while ago). Which isn't strange realy, considering your avatar and your name
No one is asking you.
May I suggest you lose the angry attitude? It's not the first time you've come across somewhat crude towards other people on these forums ... you're posting on a forum here, so other members can reply to your posts just as well. If you didn't want that, why didn't you take it to PM's with Rakshasa?
In any case, I too thought that you were a female, because the name sounds female to me, as well as your Avatar. I've just looked it up, the name is actually from a male character in the Castlevania game (and as a side note, even though he's male, the images I've seen of him when looking up the name really do look feminine, but that's besides the point). So it's something that easy to confuse; I too have to remind myself each time I see your posts that you're really a male.
|
|
The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 09, 2015 09:49 PM |
|
|
How important are neutrals for the game?
-About as import as the factions are. You cannot have a Heroes game without them. They are a core element of the game that add more tactics and strategic advantages in certain situations, so their inclusion is necessary.
What is the role of a neutral creature?
-Well they have many roles. They can be support for your army if you lack resources to build your own unit dwellings, and are in desperate need to creep. Or you could just use them as a meat shield to keep your own units alive. Sometimes your army needs a flier or a shooter and a neutral unit can fill that role. And Lastly if a unit in your army, like a deer for example, looks incredibly dumb on the battlefield, a neutral can replace it. 
How strong should a neutral creature be?
-Their strength should range from the weakest core to the strongest champion. Lots of neutrals makes the game interesting and makes creeping more fun. Therefore, you should see them all across the map guarding all sorts of treasure.
Plus a really strong neutral champion is a nice reward to the player that can afford it.
Should they be recruitable? And what should their price/population be.
-Absolutely, every single one. The prices should be reasonable as far as core and elites go. Champions should be a little higher than the norm.
How many should/could there be in the game.
-As many as possible. The minimum should be 8, and thats not including elementals and campaign units.
Elementals: Should we leave them out?
They deserve a spot. I would even say if they did a sort of Heroes 2 tribute with the elementals (Same look, different color and stats)that it would not be a bad thing. As long as it was simple and not over the top.
____________
SC: SlumbrousShip5
|
|
Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 10, 2015 02:42 PM |
|
|
The_Green_Drag said:
Elementals: Should we leave them out?
They deserve a spot. I would even say if they did a sort of Heroes 2 tribute with the elementals (Same look, different color and stats)that it would not be a bad thing. As long as it was simple and not over the top.
WHY they deserve a spot?
HOMM proved time and time again, in both timelines that Elementals turn out childish, boring, ugly and repeative, and in the new Ashen (BURN IN ASH! BURN!!!) timeline it even gave them rise to clone-units, ugh ugh Water Maiden and Glories.
If one group of creatures deserve to be OUT of a homm game its the elementals.
But whatever, i'm 101% sure they will be there, probably copied from HOMM6 just because they only have 40 people working on the game, no money, and most importantly no talent.
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted February 10, 2015 03:12 PM |
|
|
A point I would like to bring up is the relative strength of neutrals
Many of you stated, that we wish they neutrals to be alternatives to standard lineups.
In my opinion, there 2 facts that make this imposible. One of them I addressed in the OP.
Their population. The population of neutrals is usually made so, that they correspond with factions creatures. There are two ways to address this topic.
- Make their growth slightly higher than that of faction creatures.
- Make their dwellings upgradeable (praise the Sleeping sun for the idea )
Both are acceptable but there might be even more. One thing that is for sure, make their numbers stack in their dwellings
The fact that they do not have upgrades. All faction units have upgrades but the neutras do not. This makes them appear less in the random roster, and also gives them a disadvantage in general strength. Again there are two options I personally see as potential.
- Make them somewhat stronger than un-upgraded units and/or give them interesting unique abilities. And also give them a higher chance to appear on the map.
- Create !!!upgraded versions!!!, with enhanced abilities and bigger population accessible after one upgraded their dwelling
|
|
The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 10, 2015 03:29 PM |
|
|
Rakshasa92 said:
WHY they deserve a spot?
Because they can be well implemented. I wouldnt count all of h6s elementals failures. I thought the fire, wind, and earth ones were not so bad. They also add strength to a magic heroes army which is greatly needed imo. Im not saying we need an elemental for every school of magic but the original four should welcomed.
|
|
Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 10, 2015 03:32 PM |
|
|
The_Green_Drag said:
Rakshasa92 said:
WHY they deserve a spot?
Because they can be well implemented. I wouldnt count all of h6s elementals failures. I thought the fire, wind, and earth ones were not so bad. They also add strength to a magic heroes army which is greatly needed imo. Im not saying we need an elemental for every school of magic but the original four should welcomed.
YOu probably never heard about Gnome, Salamander, Undine and SYlphs, but THOSE are elementals.
They have cool names and not just *fill in any elemental*+ elemental.
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted February 10, 2015 04:00 PM |
|
|
|
Gnomes aren't particularly intimidating tho
|
| |
|
|
