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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: The lore thread
Thread: The lore thread This thread is 44 pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 30 40 44 · «PREV / NEXT»
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted March 06, 2015 03:57 PM

Sandro400 said:

Lore-book said:
Living Creatures: When a living creature dies their spirit solidifies in the Spirit World and gains consciousness. This is a crucial moment for the spirit who might either decide to fly on to the Moon and embrace reincarnation, or linger in the Spirit World to resolve problems or troubles that keep it from leaving peacefully. The more persistent eventually learn how to appear in the real world as ghosts.

Crossing of the Veil does not automatically reincarnate a soul. The Veil is a gate of sorts - it's called an "invisible barrier between the material and spirit world" in the Compendium (p. 52) and explicitly in HO, where crossing the veil just enables you to enter the spirit world.
Now, I don't say that every single ghost goes through the process as I described it. Fiona just awoke as a Ghost already. But a being may become a ghost even after passing into the Spirit World, that's what I'm saying.


Compendium page 133 said:
Upon their death, the children of the Dragon Gods rise as spirits to the moon, to await reincarnation under the guiding hand of Asha. However, traumatic events can cause the creation of a Ghost, a spirit bound to the material world by a powerful, negative emotion. By performing a specific ritual, Necromancers can convert Ghosts into loyal servants, under their absolute control.

This is what it says in the Compendium. This makes me assume that Ghosts, as a rule, do not solidify in the Spirit World but in the Physical World. What your text implies is that Souls can choose to become Ghosts instead of reincarnating.
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 06, 2015 04:20 PM

War-overlord said:
What your text implies is that Souls can choose to become Ghosts instead of reincarnating.


That was exactly what I was saying
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2015 04:44 PM

Quote:
the Archangels weren't able to revive her (not oficially) husband, but a random old man who just comes to you surely can!


change archangel with doctors, revive with cure and husband with son and who do you have?




and to be fair with Isabel, he did revive Nicolai

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted March 06, 2015 05:43 PM

Sandro400 said:
That was exactly what I was saying

Then you might want to be more clear the next time. I understood that you were saying that was the norm. Which would contradict the Compendium.
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 06, 2015 06:16 PM

War-overlord said:
Then you might want to be more clear the next time. I understood that you were saying that was the norm. Which would contradict the Compendium.


Ok, I'll try so later.
Btw,
Ghost's ability said:
Ghosts are present both in the Spirit World and Ashan simultaneously, but never completely on either. This allows them to move through walls and trees without hindrance and when attacked physically, a part of the damage is lost to thin air. "My sword went right through him... and then it... went right through me!"

So, regardless if the soul returned to Ashan on it's own will or because of the traumatic event, they "solidify" in both worlds.
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted March 07, 2015 09:10 AM
Edited by Avonu at 09:11, 07 Mar 2015.

Sandro400 said:
Now, I don't say that every single ghost goes through the process as I described it. Fiona just awoke as a Ghost already. But a being may become a ghost even after passing into the Spirit World, that's what I'm saying.

I wouldn't call Fiona a ghost - she was still alive, althrough her spirit was outside her body. She was more a astral projection then real ghost.



Sandro400 said:
Avonu, how do Nicolai's words contradict mine? His soul crossed the Veil, but he chose to be at Elrath's side (or the Dragon asked his mom to let him stay). Markal ripped him from the Spirit World after he decided to stay/was allowed to stay there.

I wanted just to clarify the situation. No many people remember what has really happened in game, which was released 10 years ago.


Sandro400 said:
P.S.: Isabel accepted Markal's help because of her stupidity. Oh yeah, the Archangels weren't able to revive her (not oficially) husband, but a random old man who just comes to you surely can!

I can understand Isabel, really. She lost her love (which she knows from... I don't know, few months before wedding? Not to mention it was more a political marriage then true love marriage ) and was willing to do anything to bring him back.
However no matter this, she was really stupid... as all people in Holy Empire - first of all, she even wasn't their queen (wedding was interupted), second royal court should know about Markal and his plots but only Godric has some objections and only because he was presented as classic paladin (honour, duty, righteousness, lack of common sense ). Third, attacking your allies (even if their are jerks like Cyrus) to ressurect your king is something which should bring all alarms, that maybe Markal is not so honest about his actions.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 07, 2015 11:08 AM
Edited by Sligneris at 00:47, 08 Mar 2015.

I can't say that I like the fact that you ridiculed relationship between Nicolai and Isabel based only on your own assumptions...

But back to your point, there aren't exactly all that many people of older Empire at the time of Isabel's reign - many of them were massacred during the War of the Gray Alliance.

Like I said, it was Emperor's bloodline vs Emperor's will. Some people decided that Isabel had no rights, some decided that they should honor their ruler's last wish. The fact that Godric, respected veteran of the Griffin Empire decided to follow the latter, only helped with that.

But people were alarmed. Contrarily to popular belief and - worst of all - official H6 timeline, Duncan rebelled against Isabel from the very beginning, not after Biara took her place. Even the people who followed her were deserting when Godric, one of the reasons some stayed under her orders, rebelled against her and Markal's undead.

At this point people under Isabel were most likely soldiers like Laszlo, who - let's admit it - was most likely a brute even before Biara corrupted him, even if not as bloodthirsty. They just received orders from this person who was supposed to rule them. People like this aren't all that uncommon...

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 07, 2015 12:10 PM

Avonu said:
I wouldn't call Fiona a ghost - she was still alive, althrough her spirit was outside her body. She was more a astral projection then real ghost.


I wouldn't say so. She was recognised as a Ghost by everyone she met - from low-ranking Undead to Markal, Ludmilla and other powerful guys.
I won't say that your idea is wrong, but if she was an astral projection, it rises many questions: why she wasn't able to return to her body, why she needed Necromancy to gain life back, why she just gained a new body etc
Last but not least, if she was a projection, then, theoretically, she wouldn't be able to physically interact with the world. A projection of Isabel/Biara in H5 was only able to talk.

Avonu said:
I wanted just to clarify the situation. No many people remember what has really happened in game, which was released 10 years ago.


My bad, sorry ^_^

Avonu said:
I can understand Isabel, really. She lost her love (which she knows from... I don't know, few months before wedding? Not to mention it was more a political marriage then true love marriage ) and was willing to do anything to bring him back.


Well, I can understand her as well, she really loved him and was broken by his death. But still, I don't think that ressurecting Nicolai as an Undead is really a sign of true love. Not mentioning she ends up with his murderer...
P.S.: people in the Empire had objections. Many people. Duncan, as was already said, rebelled even before Markal came. After Markal's return she qiute possibly lost the approval of the Church (though the Priests voted for Andrei from the very beginning). And many soldiers fled her army as well. Even Godric rebels later, but she still continues to trust Markal...

Sligneris said:
At this point people under Isabel were most likely soldiers like Laszlo, who - let's admit it - was most likely a brute before Biara corrupted him


Nope.
Laszlo's bio said:
Once a loyal captain of the Griffin Empire, Laszlo's desire for glory was twisted by Biara over a period of a few years. Warping his love for battle into a lust for blood and his search for adulation into a need to be recognised by her and her alone, Biara now has total control over Laszlo's motivations. He is no longer a tough but respected leader of soldiers, but a cruel and demanding officer who views even his own troops as fodder.

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 08, 2015 12:44 AM

Quote:
Fighting his way up from a lowly birth with a certain grim resolve, the ordeals that Laszlo has endured have hardened his heart. Covered with scars, stern and ruthless, he hews his way into the enemy ranks like a force of nature. The "kings of battlefield", as he proudly names his infantry, have little choice but to follow their commander, causing - often involuntarily - extraordinary feats of bravery.

He wasn't as bad back then, of course, but still kinda brutish.

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 08, 2015 10:12 AM

Sligneris said:
He wasn't as bad back then, of course, but still kinda brutish.


I think we understand the word "brute" differently. Brute is somebody who's cruel. Laszlo ofc had an iron heart, but he was more kinda like stern, strict officer. After Biara he became a monster who enjoyed butchering people.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 08, 2015 10:44 AM

Ah, I see your distinction here. Then, I suppose, that's where we agree.

Well, I could have worded this differently - since my point from the very start was simply that he'd not be very likely to question orders given to him.

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 10, 2015 11:59 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 00:00, 11 Mar 2015.

I'd like to clarify something I wondered about. Current ghost lore explains Fiona becoming a ghost without Necromancer's interference, but I can't help but wonder about another creature from CoH - how are intelligent skeletons created?

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 11, 2015 02:13 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 14:14, 11 Mar 2015.

Sligneris said:
how are intelligent skeletons created?


In the case of Moander, by mixing poisons.
In the case of Sandro, through the Void.
Theoretically, Necromancer can bind a soul to the bones (not just reanimate the body).
There's also one small lore text from Heroes Online, but I don't know whether it's still considered a canon:
Quote:
The Nether Skull
This skull belonged to Ashatari, a student of Belketh. She surpassed her fellow Necromancers, delving deeply into obscure lore and executing countless gruesome experiments, many of them on herself. One went particularly wrong, as Ashatari exposed her body to potent Death energy. As a result, her flesh rotted away to the bones, while her mind stayed intact. She thus became the first Skeleton in the history of Necromancy, but lost all sorcerous power and was quickly subdued by other Necromancers. They shattered her corpus and inlayed the skull with onyx glyphs to chain her vengeful soul eternally to a bone prison.



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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 11, 2015 02:42 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 14:48, 11 Mar 2015.

Poor Ashatari, I feel bad for her. Why did Belketh not intervene...

Still, what about CoH skeletons? Skelton, for example. Griffin Empire knight, who was killed and trapped in his own skeleton by a necromancer, but remained optimistic and dedicated to his Dragon God...? That's actually... quite deep for such a joke character.

Chimo and Talon however both died centuries before Necromancers moved to Heresh, so I'm not sure how to think of these...

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 11, 2015 03:30 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 15:31, 11 Mar 2015.

Sligneris said:
Still, what about CoH skeletons? Skelton, for example. Griffin Empire knight, who was killed and trapped in his own skeleton by a necromancer, but remained optimistic and dedicated to his Dragon God...? That's actually... quite deep for such a joke character.

Chimo and Talon however both died centuries before Necromancers moved to Heresh, so I'm not sure how to think of these...


He is one of my favorites from CoH ^_^

Talon was the bone dragon, right? Maybe he's a rare example of Bone Dragon which retained his spirit and didn't become mad. Or maybe he was risen later by some Necromancer to guard this part of Heresh.
As for Chimo, he was eaten by Talon iirc. Dragons exist in both material and spirit world, so maybe those poor mortals swallowed by them remain "trapped" within dragon's belly, body and spirit.
P.S.: I'm just making up some theories, because I too am a bit confused with the origin of those characters.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 11, 2015 04:32 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 16:37, 11 Mar 2015.

Talon isn't exactly a regular Bone Dragon, as these are generally soulless fossils animated by necromantic energy. He not only has his soul, he's not even exactly "animated", given the fact that he cannot move...

It could be that some other energy, other than necromancy, prevented him and Chimo from leaving their dead bodies - their remains are possibly ordinary bones, not even animated, but their souls, trapped in their skeletons can communicate with the outside world.

You know, it's kinda refreshing to see how there's both a ghost (Fiona) and dragon skeleton (Talon) that were not enslaved by Necromancers, usually quite opportunistic in that regard.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 11, 2015 08:38 PM

I wouldn't take clash of heroes all too seriously. For one, demons have hellfire rocket launchers ^^ And then there's the fact that its characters are the exact opposites of their older selves in H5. People change of course but you could change their names and nobody would guess that they are the same person.

All the same I like reading about your observations, keep them coming
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 11, 2015 08:54 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 00:43, 12 Mar 2015.

Exact opposites? Strange, as I thought the characters weren't different in terms of personality at all. They are portrayed pretty well, and Godric's lines in the Diplomat scenario are particularly the ones I could imagine coming from CoH Godric.

Findan simply hasn't yet adopted his poet shtick, but he is just as determined in fighting any abominations and just as unwilling to trust others easily (the way he refused to believe Anwen about demon involvement and was quick to accuse Lord Edric of stealing the artifact reminds me of his treatment of Isabel, or the dark elves).

Markal was intrigued by a ghost who claimed to be a Griffin noble and out of his curiosity, he decided to help her, as having a noble indebted to you is hardly a bad thing. Truth be told, when Ludmilla stole the Death Cult energies, it seemed he couldn't be less concerned about the ghost's life - but it was just a great opportunity to incite her into attacking Ludmilla, his long-time rival and a major obstacle on his rise to power among the necromancers of Heresh.

Cyrus in CoH was in his prime - even his H5 biography stated that formerly he was a genius, young and dynamic First of the Cycle. He changed, when Nadia died in childbirth having Zehir - as Jeff Spock put it, it was "the reason that Cyrus grew increasingly cold and bitter over the years". Once an ally to the Griffin Empire, he didn't think much of them afterwards and probably focused in his pursuit of power exclusively - hence Godric and his opinion on Cyrus and mages.

Not to mention that hellfire launchers aren't exactly as far a step ahead from Inferno's H6 catapults. Their ammunition were also simple fiery rocks, too...


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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 12, 2015 07:44 AM

Sligneris said:
Markal was intrigued by a ghost who claimed to be a Griffin noble and out of his curiosity, he decided to help her, as having a noble indebted to you is hardly a bad thing. Truth be told, when Ludmilla stole the Death Cult energies, it seemed he couldn't be less concerned about the ghost's life - but it was just a great opportunity to incite her into attacking Ludmilla, his long-time rival and a major obstacle on his rise to power among the necromancers of Heresh.


Not mentioning it was Sandro's plan from the beginning ^_^
Oh, ok, I exaggerate. Maybe Sandro planned all this from the start (he took over Ludmilla and ruled Heresh, btw) or he just used the opprtunity that presented itself.
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted March 12, 2015 10:52 AM

Sandro400 said:
Not mentioning it was Sandro's plan from the beginning ^_^

It wasn't.
I really don't like retcon of Markal's story in CoH - he was a lot better charackter in Clash then in Heroes 5 - he had very good motivations to remove Ludmilla (she after all was working with mages, chaos corrupted mages) and he wasn't yet another shaming necromancer, who wants to conquer all world as he was in Heroes 5 (with addition of revange on Cyrus).

As fo Sandro and Markal - I think Markal actions in CoH is when Sandro first heard about him and took as his apprentice:
Quote:
You proved your potential in Heresh, when you manipulated that Unicorn girl. It is now time for you to infiltrate the court of the Holy Emperor. My plan is now entering its final phase, and you, my young apprentice, will be an essential part of it. So, Markal, are you ready to embrace your destiny?

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