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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: The lore thread
Thread: The lore thread This thread is 43 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 39 40 41 42 43 · «PREV / NEXT»
Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 05, 2015 09:43 PM

kiryu133 said:
she wasn't supposed to be though :/


I don't care, really. Believing Markal was the epitome of stupidity. Don't tell me she never knew in what form Nicolai will be resurrected.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted March 05, 2015 09:48 PM

Sandro400 said:
kiryu133 said:
she wasn't supposed to be though :/


I don't care, really. Believing Markal was the epitome of stupidity. Don't tell me she never knew in what form Nicolai will be resurrected.



i won't. she was very, very stupid. doesn't change that she wasn't supposed to be stupid. they just couldn't write her non-stupid. But yeah, she was a god damn idiot because they couldn't write an inexperienced and naive character right.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted March 05, 2015 09:56 PM

That's the thing, the plot downplayed the characters whereas the characters should affect the plot. The only reason Biara and Markal were so successful was because the plot required them to be. It makes no sense that the rest of the characters would be THAT dense to fall for it.

Agrael: Who spied on me..?

Biara totally changes the subject
Ding! We have a suspect! No? Come on.

Markal raises a vampire Nicolai that attempts to feed on Isabel.

Markal: Is there a problem my queen?

Poor Isabel is in no position to rule, let us leave the vagrant necromancer who came from nowhere in charge! Okay he was kicked out of the kingdom for being a charlatan in the past and he raises the dead in a land of Elrath worshippers but how bad could things go? He has an honest face, he is not even undead!

The whole gang travels to Sheogh to take down the sovereign and save Isabel. Godric returns with a fake Isabel and Raelag with the real one. Wait what?

The H5 storyline requires that you just roll with it. Nothing to see here, moving on
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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted March 05, 2015 10:21 PM
Edited by GenyaArikado at 22:24, 05 Mar 2015.

Sandro400 said:
GenyaArikado said:
yet she isnt evil or bad, just unexperienced and naive.


You meant plain stupid, don't you?


Quote:
more in concept than execution




and to be fair, H6 showed there are plenty of decent vampires who retain their previous personality more or less.

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 05, 2015 11:21 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 23:50, 05 Mar 2015.

Sandro400 said:
I don't care, really. Believing Markal was the epitome of stupidity. Don't tell me she never knew in what form Nicolai will be resurrected.
Clash of Heroes presented a possibility of necromancy actually restoring a person to life, not only as an undead. And even if it was obvious he would be reborn as a vampire, there are many vampires who retain the personality they had while they were alive.

It could be that Markal simply chose to raise Nicolai as his servant, it could be that Nicolai just took his emotional emptiness worse than others, it could be the demonic poison still preventing the return of some part of him, ripping his soul in half, it could be all of these. None of these were as obvious as people could claim.
Elvin said:
Poor Isabel is in no position to rule, let us leave the vagrant necromancer who came from nowhere in charge! Okay he was kicked out of the kingdom for being a charlatan in the past and he raises the dead in a land of Elrath worshippers but how bad could things go? He has an honest face, he is not even undead!

The only reason why Isabel had people under her at all from any other lands than just Greyhound Duchy was because the people of the Empire had problem with deciding what is more sacred - Emperor's will, or Emperor's bloodline.

Then, after their queen couldn't rule, they see their Emperor, back from the dead - I believe the terror of the reality of those who saw him struck them so hard that they just passively followed orders. The rest just heard the news that their Emperor has returned to life and just received and executed "his" orders.

I can't see how it couldn't happen, regardless of how questionable it all was.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2015 01:02 AM

The Compendium and/or the website introduced an alternative method to become a vampire, Ritual of the Night or something like that. If i recall correctly the soul had to be willing to undergo it or otherwise the vampire would be a monster. I assume the emperor of holylightland wouldnt be so keen on returning as a vampire. Cue Vampire!Nicolai

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 06, 2015 10:06 AM

Sligneris said:
Clash of Heroes presented a possibility of necromancy actually restoring a person to life, not only as an undead. And even if it was obvious he would be reborn as a vampire, there are many vampires who retain the personality they had while they were alive.

It could be that Markal simply chose to raise Nicolai as his servant, it could be that Nicolai just took his emotional emptiness worse than others, it could be the demonic poison still preventing the return of some part of him, ripping his soul in half, it could be all of these. None of these were as obvious as people could claim.


Oh yeah, the possibility which eas never done before, reqiures a ghost itself to collect powers, and a very specific Moon phase. Yeah, nice possibility.
You don't understand. Isabel herself says that Necromancy is forbidden and cosidered a heresy. Minute after, without any real thought, she agrees to ressurect Nicolai as an Undead. Yeah, and don't tell me she didn't know that Markal would have complete control over his own Vampire.

Not "simply chose", that was his goal all along ^^
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2015 11:18 AM

Well, of course it was his plan all along.

GenyaArikado said:
The Compendium and/or the website introduced an alternative method to become a vampire, Ritual of the Night or something like that. If i recall correctly the soul had to be willing to undergo it or otherwise the vampire would be a monster. I assume the emperor of holylightland wouldnt be so keen on returning as a vampire. Cue Vampire!Nicolai

Oh, that's a pretty good explanation, thank you~!

Can the soul be willing to return, even when it's in the afterlife? I'm thinking, most specifically, about Anastasya.

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Avonu
Avonu


Promising
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted March 06, 2015 11:47 AM
Edited by Avonu at 12:10, 06 Mar 2015.

Soul always return to live. However... when a body dies, its soul goes to the Moon (to Asha) and cross the Veil to enter Spirit Realm. Then its memories are wiped and the soul return to Ashan as "tabula rasa" to experience new life without burdens of previous lifes.
This was "a gift" of Asha to Elder races (amoung passing of time and death) introduced after Wars of Creation - to erase all pain caused by this great conflict.
This is also a reason, why Sandro is so pissed about Dragon Gods - he loved his sister so much, he simple can't accept, that his sister is no more - even if she lives again, she wouldn't remember him and would be a new person, not his loved Alma.

However - some souls can choose to remain with their Dragon Gods with their memories intact.
(They are not bound by the blood of their race by rather by their heart - so a Dwarf can choose to have afterlife in for example Shalassa's domain).

Ghosts are souls which IIRC still didn't cross the Veil and can be brought back by necromacers. However souls who crossed the Veil, are beyond necromancers' grasps.

There is also the Void, which exist beyond the Veil and "ouside" Spirit Realm (but close to Elemetal Plane of Darkness - Malassa's domain). Some mortals chose to cross the Void in order to reach Asha but nearly all of them were erased by Void (Sandro seems to be only one who surived).
Void Wraiths are remnants of nethermancers souls which feed on memories of living creatures to evade being erased by the Void.


On side note - demons after death are reborn as the lowest "tier" amoung demnos - imps - but they remember everything from previous lifes and use this experience to gather power and climb upper in demon hierarchy.

And yes, Nicolai case is very strange - he was in Elrath's domain but was brought back with all his memories. I think Live and Death Cycle was still not created by Ubisoft during HoMM5 vanillia campaign events.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted March 06, 2015 12:31 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 12:31, 06 Mar 2015.

It actually could be the reason why all these powerful artifacts that earlier belonged to Sandro were required - to reach this far for Nicolai's soul.

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 06, 2015 12:44 PM

Avonu said:
And yes, Nicolai case is very strange - he was in Elrath's domain but was brought back with all his memories. I think Live and Death Cycle was still not created by Ubisoft during HoMM5 vanillia campaign events.


Nothing strange. He hadn't gone through the reincarnation process, so it makes sense that he has his memories intact. Veil acts as a gate of sorts. The decision to stay or be reincarnated comes after crossing it.
Ghosts are souls which manage to manifest itself in the material world.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted March 06, 2015 12:58 PM

Actually I remember him mentioning he was in the halls of his fathers or something. Guess Ashan was not high on reincarnation at the time
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted March 06, 2015 01:03 PM

Sandro400 said:
Veil acts as a gate of sorts. The decision to stay or be reincarnated comes after crossing it.
Ghosts are souls which manage to manifest itself in the material world.

As far as Ghosts go, no it does not. Ghosts for whatever reason, trauma mostly, cannot or will not cross. Which makes them subjectable by Necromancers.
And as Avonu said, souls that cross the Veil are beyond the reach of Necromancers. Now there are two explainations as to why Nicolai still had his memories at reļncarnation, assuming it's still cannon.
1. As offered before, Markal needed a lot of Sandro's stuff to reach beyond the Veil to get at Nicolai before he got to reļncarnate.
2. Crossing the Veil to Asha is notoriously difficult during ane Eclipses and New Moons, so perhaps, Nicolai's soul never crossed.
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Avonu
Avonu


Promising
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted March 06, 2015 01:10 PM
Edited by Avonu at 13:28, 06 Mar 2015.

Sandro400 said:
Nothing strange. He hadn't gone through the reincarnation process, so it makes sense that he has his memories intact. Veil acts as a gate of sorts. The decision to stay or be reincarnated comes after crossing it.


Nicolai said:
What have you done! I was at peace. I sat before Elrath, beside my fathers, out of time and place...

Then I was ripped, ripped as an unborn child from a womb. I am cursed now, do you see? I cannot go back! My soul is damned!

(...)

Would that it were so, Findan. But what of my soul? It was stolen from Elrath, and will walk in emptiness.



Sandro400 said:
Ghosts are souls which manage to manifest itself in the material world.


H7 said:
Upon their death, the children of the Dragon Gods rise as spirits to the moon, to await reincarnation under the guiding hand of Asha. However, traumatic events can cause the creation of a Ghost, a spirit bound to the material world by a powerful, negative emotion.


War-overlord said:
And as Avonu said, souls that cross the Veil are beyond the reach of Necromancers. Now there are two explainations as to why Nicolai still had his memories at reļncarnation, assuming it's still cannon.
1. As offered before, Markal needed a lot of Sandro's stuff to reach beyond the Veil to get at Nicolai before he got to reļncarnate.
2. Crossing the Veil to Asha is notoriously difficult during ane Eclipses and New Moons, so perhaps, Nicolai's soul never crossed.

There is one other explanation: Souls beyond the Veil are holy for necromancres - "servants" of Spider Godess would not dare to go for something what belongs to Asha and they would not cross her Cycle of Live and Death. They can use souls which didn't accepted their deaths but that's as far as they can go... of course being nethermancer means you can throw out silly relligion dogmats.
The reason why Isabel accepted Markal "help" was that, Nicolai's soul was beyond archangels reach - in terms of lore from H6 and newer games, he crossed the Veil already.
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted March 06, 2015 01:22 PM

Avonu said:
There is one other explanation: Souls beyond the Veil are holy for necromancres - "servants" of Spider Godess would not dare to go for something what belongs to Asha and they would not cross her Cycle of Live and Death. They can use souls which didn't accepted their deaths but that's as far as they can go... of course being nethermancer means you can throw out silly relligion dogmats.
The reason why Isabel accepted Markal "help" was that, Nicolai's soul was beyond archangels reach - in terms of lore from H6 and newer games, he crossed the Veil already.

Sounds plausible.
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Avonu
Avonu


Promising
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted March 06, 2015 01:41 PM

One more thing:

War-overlord said:
2. Crossing the Veil to Asha is notoriously difficult during ane Eclipses and New Moons, so perhaps, Nicolai's soul never crossed.

Actually NPC Edwin in MMX stated, that Veil during Bloodmoon Eclipse is weaker then normal (as Asha's power is general weaker) and he was able to see beyond the Veil.
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted March 06, 2015 01:44 PM

Only during New Moons then.
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Iron from Ice.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted March 06, 2015 02:25 PM

Question about the cycle of life, Dark Messiah
Now let mi stir this up with a little Dark messiah
In the last chapter Sareth is asked by the tortured soul of Ishtvan, son of Vradek, to free him from his agony. Vradek is one of 4 dead Kings of Stonehelm tha Arantir reanimated as Liche to fight Sareth. But Freeing Ishtvan makes Vradek not attack him.

So, If Vradek was dead, and if he is the same Vradek who founded Vladek's Crossing, he is likely dead for a long time, How could he remember his son?

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted March 06, 2015 02:45 PM

Dave_Jame said:
Question about the cycle of life, Dark Messiah
Now let mi stir this up with a little Dark messiah
In the last chapter Sareth is asked by the tortured soul of Ishtvan, son of Vradek, to free him from his agony. Vradek is one of 4 dead Kings of Stonehelm tha Arantir reanimated as Liche to fight Sareth. But Freeing Ishtvan makes Vradek not attack him.

So, If Vradek was dead, and if he is the same Vradek who founded Vladek's Crossing, he is likely dead for a long time, How could he remember his son?

If Vradek never reļncarnated, his memory would still be intact.
Since he remembers his son, then IMO we may assume he never reļncarnated and his soul lingered on Ashan as a ghost for all that time.
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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted March 06, 2015 03:21 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 15:34, 06 Mar 2015.

War-overlord said:
As far as Ghosts go, no it does not. Ghosts for whatever reason, trauma mostly, cannot or will not cross. Which makes them subjectable by Necromancers.
And as Avonu said, souls that cross the Veil are beyond the reach of Necromancers. Now there are two explainations as to why Nicolai still had his memories at reļncarnation, assuming it's still cannon.
1. As offered before, Markal needed a lot of Sandro's stuff to reach beyond the Veil to get at Nicolai before he got to reļncarnate.
2. Crossing the Veil to Asha is notoriously difficult during ane Eclipses and New Moons, so perhaps, Nicolai's soul never crossed.


Lore-book said:
Living Creatures: When a living creature dies their spirit solidifies in the Spirit World and gains consciousness. This is a crucial moment for the spirit who might either decide to fly on to the Moon and embrace reincarnation, or linger in the Spirit World to resolve problems or troubles that keep it from leaving peacefully. The more persistent eventually learn how to appear in the real world as ghosts.

Crossing of the Veil does not automatically reincarnate a soul. The Veil is a gate of sorts - it's called an "invisible barrier between the material and spirit world" in the Compendium (p. 52) and explicitly in HO, where crossing the veil just enables you to enter the spirit world.
Now, I don't say that every single ghost goes through the process as I described it. Fiona just awoke as a Ghost already. But a being may become a ghost even after passing into the Spirit World, that's what I'm saying.

-------------------

Avonu, how do Nicolai's words contradict mine? His soul crossed the Veil, but he chose to be at Elrath's side (or the Dragon asked his mom to let him stay). Markal ripped him from the Spirit World after he decided to stay/was allowed to stay there.
But I agree with you that maybe the whole reincarnation thingy wasn't implemented back in H5. About Ghosts I already gave an answer to WO.
P.S.: Isabel accepted Markal's help because of her stupidity. Oh yeah, the Archangels weren't able to revive her (not oficially) husband, but a random old man who just comes to you surely can!
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