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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The bottom of everything
Thread: The bottom of everything This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
Saurya
Saurya

Tavern Dweller
posted February 28, 2015 11:09 AM

The bottom of everything

I KNOW THIS IS AN ENORMOUS WALL OF TEXT. PLEASE READ ALL OF IT OR IGNORE THIS THREAD COMPLETELY.

I don't know where should I post this, so I just posted it where most people will take a look. I don't care if I get banned for writing this, it's time someone knew this.

Does anyone even know why H3 is said to be the best in the series? A more accurate question will be, Does anyone know why H5 was not better than H3?

The answer is, because it was not allowed to be.

There is a thread somewhere on the forum where people were actually deciding how to condemn H5 to failure by discussing only the bad features. Everyone said that H5 was bad, worse than H4, but they did not give one satisfactory reason for their hatred.

One guy said that he simply deleted the demo because the line-of-sight shooting system was abolished. Really? If I am not wrong, didn't the same system receive negative comments during the release of H4?

Another said that H5 simply combined the features of H3 and H4. So what? Does that make the game useless? Think of this. Day 1, you eat rice and curry. Day 2 you eat bread and pulses. Day three you eat rice and pulses. Is Day 3 not different enough from the others?

Why not simply look at the game itself and not at it's new features? Because,this community is simply addicted to H3. This may not be a bad thing, but they are getting sick over this addiction and vomiting on the newer games.

In the H7 polls, they are voting to get back their Medusas and Troglodytes of H3 and to forget the faceless of H6. They are wanting a total remake of H3 with an expanded story and better graphics. That will please them most.

I am saying "they" because I earnestly hope that you, the reader will be forgetting your personal preferences while reading this.

I have seen people being addicted to an older game and not playing the newer one. The most common is Age of Empires 2. That is because AoE 3 was not that good enough.

So? you may ask. H5 was also not better than H3. and I am asking you, Why is it so? What feature makes H3 better than H5? Most people will not be able to give a satisfactory answer.

Look at the Blizzard community. Starcraft was a hit, they accepted it. Warcraft 3 was an even greater hit, but it borrowed some ideas from Starcraft. So what? the game itself is good so it was acclaimed. Starcraft 2 had much to live up to, which it did. and was acclaimed too.

H5 also was good enough, at least to me. But to them, everything a bit more different is a "disappointment". I have seen a guy trying to call SC2 a disappointment who was politely told to shut up. This did not happen in this community.

My purpose of this post is not to popularize H5, but to inspire you, the reader, to do your best to amend this community. It can be that you like H3 very much, but please do not let this liking ruin the later games. H5 has been a victim, I do not want H7 to be another.

I will thank this forum for letting me post this publicly. I request one favour from the moderators. If I am banned, please do not delete this thread.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 28, 2015 11:31 AM

There are many players who prefer H5, so you won't be banned: nobody is perfect.

Personally I prefer H3, because I was H2 hardcore player then the transition was fluent, all my online friends followed so we were again together and kicking each other a$$. Then H4 broke the thing, then wog expansion came out so it multiplied the H3 modding possibilities endlessly. So far, everything that is in H5 we can mod it for H3 but not vice-versa. So, at least for me, when H5 came out I already had all what I wanted from a game. Yet, I bought it then downloaded the biggest maps I could find on maps4heroes and I remember each one crashed either on reload or early game. I wasn't playing online anymore thus my only interest was solo. How play if it crashes?
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Nitramar
Nitramar


Adventuring Hero
posted February 28, 2015 12:26 PM
Edited by Nitramar at 12:28, 28 Feb 2015.

Heroes 5 is very similar to heroes 3 and even has some nice improvements (skill system is much better, spells are more interesting etc.). Still, I find H3 somehow more approachable. It's just easier to fire up a game of H3 than H5, because H5 just seems so much... slower. The loadig times are just terrible compared to H3 (even with Quantomas's AI patch, which is obligatory for H5 imo) and every little thing (entering a city, constructing a building, starting a fight, scrolling the adventure map etc. etc.) just takes a little bit more time, to the point where playing H5 feels more like waiting than playing to me (because I'm used to H3 speeds). I also prefer the 2D graphics (visually) and the UI of H3, as well as the music. So it's really little things that prevent me from liking H5 more than H3. I certainly don't hate it, and I think very few people over here actually do, they just like H3 a bit more.

H5 is still a great game and a lot of people like it, even more than H3. Of course some people still don't like it. Remember that the people who complain tend to be more vocal than those who are happy .

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 28, 2015 12:54 PM

@Saurya

H5 {final version} is a very good game...now. <imo> The problem you are talking about is not really a fan attitude issue. UBI crafted a monster of a format at a time when most folks owned PCs that could not run the resource-hog. i.e. When the game came out I was thrilled for a new release and bought the vanilla and that was a huge let-down. I didn't come back to H5 till like late 2010 when the H5 community here was on life-support. I contributed to the wider H5 community but it proved to be much too little, much too late by that time.

So to me the thing is, companies should experiment but NOT experiment with their fans time and money. Get the new-release right & rocking before taking it to the world. You know "Once bitten, twice shy" is true for gaming too.

I like both games but prefer H5 for environments and classes.

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Adventuring Hero
Master of the Sword
posted February 28, 2015 01:40 PM

I simply don't like the graphics design in H5. I find some of the creatures exceptionally ugly. Also I prefer playing a Heroes game in 2D. I don't like the camera angles in H5.
These are two aspects that keep me from enjoying this game.

H2 and 3 get me into a very special Heroes feeling, which I never got whilst playing H5 or 6. To be honest, I'm even enjoying H1 more than 5 or 6, although I spent nearly 50 hours playing H6.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 28, 2015 01:45 PM
Edited by artu at 14:48, 28 Feb 2015.

First of all, I would suggest to cut out the pointless drama, nobody will ban you for preferring H5, that's absurd.

There are many reasons why most people prefer H3 to H5, gameplay, graphics, efficiency of random maps/large maps, modding capabilities. Heroes 3 was one of those games that satisfied people on all levels, where as H5 disappointed some with its graphic style, some with it's bugs and some with its mechanics.  

I think basically, the 3D adventure map simply injured this atmosphere, Sandro400 describes quite efficiently, in the name of allegedly better, next generation graphics. Everything got smaller after that.
Quote:
Because for me this atmosphere wasn't in graphics. Even not so much in lore. It was in the game itself. It was in this wonderful magical, fairytale world - the adventure map - filled with shiny thingies waiting to be taken, fantastic creatures guarding treasures. It was in this sound horse makes when you click your mouse. In the feeling that you're a Hero who commands an army of legendary creatures. In the fact that you should use your brains to win. It was in the music. In the townscreens, the way you build your own fortress step by step. Believe me or not, I actually miss the sound when you build a structure in H3 (there was even a mod to H5 bringing this sound back). I always played with Necro and Fortress (for the Undead and lots of reptiles respectively), not because of their creature visuals but because of the concept itself. And many more, I find it very hard to put this feeling into words.



The real bottom line is this: People loved H2, too and when H3 came out with many changes, especially in art style, almost nobody had a problem. It managed to hold up to the legacy and even took that legacy further. H5 failed to do that. The majority dont get paid to love H3 but only think of H5 as an overall okay game, they just do. We are not indoctrinated to do so, it's spontaneous. So, really, you are not "fighting the man" here or anything, you happen to like a game more than some people that's all.

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i challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong. you CANNOT. -fred

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted February 28, 2015 03:03 PM

The transition to 3D was the biggest divider, in addition to changing the Universe. Was a bit too much change for some.

I actually haven't heard many complaints about gameplay in H5, what were those artu?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 28, 2015 03:14 PM
Edited by artu at 15:15, 28 Feb 2015.

Things were hard to detect in the map while traveling, some didnt like the skill system, some didnt like alternative upgrades, there were some more but I'm not a H5 guy, so I dont remember them all.
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i challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong. you CANNOT. -fred

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 28, 2015 03:39 PM

H5 wasn't bad when it was all said and done (tho the voice acting and cut scenes were pretty dreadful). That said, the 3D nature of it destroyed the game board like feel for me.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 28, 2015 06:51 PM

Nitramar said:
H5 just seems so much... slower. The loadig times are just terrible compared to H3 (even with Quantomas's AI patch, which is obligatory for H5 imo) and every little thing (entering a city, constructing a building, starting a fight, scrolling the adventure map etc. etc.) just takes a little bit more time, to the point where playing H5 feels more like waiting than playing to me (because I'm used to H3 speeds).
This is a big part of it for me. I have a fast computer, but H5 is still noticeably slower - the animations take longer, the menus are less convenient, loading is slower, etc. I can get a lot more done in 5-10 minutes of playing H3 than H5. Contributing to that is H5's clunky interface (which, to its credit, is one of the few things H6 fixed) that made it a challenge to click on the right thing.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 28, 2015 08:58 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 20:59, 28 Feb 2015.

I can only speak for myself here, but the reason I feel my interest only lies in Homm 2, 3 and 4 is because of the focus (at least from my PoV) that was placed on graphics. 3D became a increasing importance (as with most games ofc) but what I feel was that the focus turned to it too much instead of the story, music and epic feeling while playing the game.

Now I am aware of that HoMM IV was in 3D. I also admit I was sceptical to it at first, but after trying it out I fell in love with the new kind of tactics, combat system, map system etc that were presented.
I also loved the somewhat more philosophical aspect in the campaigns, it was different but it was not bad. I also think the music by Paul Anthony Romero was absolutely exquisite.

Then came HoMM V. I recall buying the CD cower and the holy knight on the frame looked awesome. I turned the CD and saw the cities and went "wtf?". Why change the city concept into some "celestial building merry-go-round"?
Nevertheless I attempted it but I felt the Heroes concept I had hold in such high esteem was gone. The battles were not the same, the plot was a disaster and the overall gameplay made me shiver. I honestly felt too much effort had been placed on graphics and the thinking outside of the box had gone too far.

But this is not the only game that has been ruined by "focus on graphics and other aspects". The Halo series on Xbox just gets worse everytime in my opinion, there is so much focus on graphic that all that made me by Halo 3 was due to wanting to see the plot unfold and finnish. Same can be said for World of Warcraft which started to wane with Wotlk (although I did enjoy a lot of Wotlk) and Cataclysm nailed my coffin shut. It was a complete focus once again on graphics and giving away items on a silverplate, rendering all "work for it" feelings useless.

But once again, this is just my aspect of this issue and I respect that everyone has their own opinions.

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Saurya
Saurya

Tavern Dweller
posted March 02, 2015 08:17 AM

H5 seems slower...? I admit that it is slow what with the loading. But I should think TBS players should be comfortable with a bit of slowness...
Personally I don't care at all about graphics. I don't care about how the units look either. H5's music was really good If you ask me. But that is all down to what you prefer.
"H5 failed to take the legacy further..." What exactly does this mean? I should think that it means that the atmosphere was ruined.
Ebonheart point outs that the focus on graphics ruined the game and that the battles were "not the same". I'd say that it is a dangerous thing to say something is "not the same" in front of me... H4 was not the same as H3. H5 tried to restore H3's style and since you liked H4 very much, you may not have liked H5. I say that H5 was not ruined by the focus on graphics, but that the developers tried to restore H3's style with the better elements of H4. In doing so, they thought the game's good enough already and just tried to improve the graphics.

I am now feeling that this thread is turning into a "H3 vs H5" which was not my aim. I started this thread to say, Don't let your liking of H3 ruin other games. An example from Artu's post who quoted Sandro400 saying "I actually miss the sound when you build a structure in H3". This shouldn't actually be a big deal in ruining the atmosphere. In the H7 Dungeon line-up vote, people voted MTF to get Troglodytes and Medusas back. This should be stopped, I'd like to say.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 02, 2015 09:27 AM
Edited by Maurice at 09:28, 02 Mar 2015.

I'm with Corribus on this one.

Somehow, the adventure map changes don't work for me. I understand the desire that many game developers have to go 3D, but the original 3 games all had symbolic adventure maps. Proportions were way off, but that was ok. From Heroes 5 and onward, it became more lifelike and the adventure map became extremely hard to navigate, compared to previous titles. Redeeming aspects of Heroes 5 were the powerful scripting language behind it, the music and the battle atmosphere (though the turn one strikers crossing the battlefield, deciding the battle were perhaps a bit too much).

Oh, and the Faceless? I disliked them as a unit, which was reason for me to vote against them .

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 02, 2015 10:14 AM

Saurya said:
I am now feeling that this thread is turning into a "H3 vs H5" which was not my aim. I started this thread to say, Don't let your liking of H3 ruin other games. An example from Artu's post who quoted Sandro400 saying "I actually miss the sound when you build a structure in H3". This shouldn't actually be a big deal in ruining the atmosphere. In the H7 Dungeon line-up vote, people voted MTF to get Troglodytes and Medusas back. This should be stopped, I'd like to say.

But that all depends on how well-recieved a sequel is and that's what I was pointing at when I said H3 managed to do that with H2 while H5 failed.

If the new things work and they are embraced, people usually dont miss the way of the older games and even if they do sometimes (like people missing the hand drawn art style of H2), they dont trash-talk the replacement because of it. If someone is thinking about the sound effects of H3 while playing H5, it does not only mean that H3 was impressive, it also means that H5 wasnt impressive enough. Although one can always say that H3 was a pretty tough act to follow.
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i challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong. you CANNOT. -fred

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 02, 2015 10:48 AM

H3 is all about accessability. Lots of people had played and enjoyed H2, and H3 was, when it comes down to it, simply a lot bigger a game, with usable secondary skills, lots of towns and creatures, ease to play - and then the editor was neat, the RMG was quite usable, and basically it was all THERE, and when the modding started in earnest... well.

H5 is good - but I wouldn't make a map for it, that's certainly one thing that sucks.
The second turn-off is, that while H4 wasn't to everyone's liking, there were at least two things it excelled in, and that's MAP OBJECTS and mixed neutralö stacks. On the H4 maps there is no shortage of interesting stuff on the map - that is guarded by mixed neutral stacks.
Both of these H5 didn't deliver, and H5 maps feel empty and somehow "not right", when it comes to hero pace, map size and object density.

Lastly, there is combat. Battlefield of HoMM 5 is cramped and there isn't a lot of maneuvering space, especially for big walkers. I also happen to dislike squares a lot - for some here, it seems 3d destroyed the adventure map feel - for me it's the battle maps (squares are a consequence of 3d and the production goal to have different-sized creatures - H4 has basically the same battlefield geometry, but in 2d, and if I'm not wrong they work with FOUR different sizes there, the reason of which is, that the BF is much bigger (and the squares are much smaller).

The bottom line is that when H3 was published there wasn't much you could say in terms of "I miss this or that" or "a predecessor did this or that better", and even if there were a couple of things, you could follow up with a big BUT, there is so much more here.
Not so with H5, though.
So while H5 is a good game, there is more of a chance to "miss" something important.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted March 02, 2015 10:53 AM

The worst possible (and annoyingly overused) argument that is supposed to be in favour of any of the Ubisoft Heroes games is "nostalgia blinds you, they are better than you see them". Heroes V objectively failed on many levels even if you take it as a stand-alone game that exists in vacuum with no predecessors, let alone great ones. Yes, it had some good idea, yes, it even had some good ideas that were implemented well. No, the story doesn't end here. Is that so hard to grasp? Before Tribes of the East, Heroes V was not even average from technical perspective (not to mention that the original release didn't even have a map editor and the game never really got an adequate one) and even though TotE arrived in a fairly playable state, some of the core issues could not be rooted out and are still not (Ashan...).

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Nitramar
Nitramar


Adventuring Hero
posted March 02, 2015 03:10 PM
Edited by Nitramar at 15:13, 02 Mar 2015.

Saurya said:
But I should think TBS players should be comfortable with a bit of slowness...


That is like saying "poor people should be comfortable with a bit of starvation" . No, really, it is frustrating to spend time waiting for things to happen or for getting a task done. Naturally, when I have the option to play a very similar and at least equally good game but with less waiting (H3), I more frequently choose that one.


I also agree that both the adventure map and the battle map suffer from the 3D (for the same reasons that other posters have presented above). I really liked the H4 battle map with the very small squares (well, I didn't like how it looked but rather how it played), it was like an approximation of a real map with just sizes and distances (which I think is what you should do if you use 3D). I probably prefer hexagons (H1-H3) to big squares (H5-), but in the end the difference between these two is not so big, imo.

So it's not so much about refusing to like H5 because I liked H3. It is simply that, to me, H5 is less perfect (H3 is not perfect either but it is more perfect than H5) in terms of how all the different gameplay, atmosphere and usability aspects work together.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 02, 2015 03:27 PM

Umm, there are no grades of perfection, same as in pregnant. You are or you are not. Just saying.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 02, 2015 03:32 PM

I appreciated Heroes 5 for its gameplay which I consider superior to Heroes 3. However I didn't like it for its atmosphere. The Ashan universe is off-putting to say the least.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 02, 2015 03:32 PM
Edited by artu at 15:35, 02 Mar 2015.

JollyJoker said:
Umm, there are no grades of perfection, same as in pregnant. You are or you are not. Just saying.

Yes. I wouldnt use the word like him. But I always thought if there were two things that are perfect, one could be more perfect than the other, since usually, perfection is just a feeling you get about something that has a very vague and immeasurable definition.
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i challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong. you CANNOT. -fred

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