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| Thread: Skillwheel Theorycrafting |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 20, 2015 01:34 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:11, 20 Mar 2015.
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That's a fairly good system, Maurice. I have the same thoughts for the most part, with some exceptions. It keeps the core of the Heroes 5 Skillwheel while it comes with some improvements and twists, and that's what I would like too.
Now, I think I should answer my own questions.
Stevie said:
1. How many skillwheels do we have and according to what (class? faction? universal skillwheel?);
2. How many skills there are in total and what do they do;
3. How many skills a skillwheel should have from the total;
4. How are skills distributed on the skillwheel (Might - Magic - Neutral? another way? or no specific distribution);
5. How many abilities a skill should have (maximum - minimum);
6. How are abilities distributed (according to mastery levels?);
7. Any internal prerequisites and any rules for them;
8. Any external prerequisites and any rules for them;
9. Ultimates, yes or no;
10. What would make good ultimates prerequisites (streamlining? more free pick?)
11. How would the interface look and what are the advantages of your display;
12. Miscellaneous, notes, etc.
1. There would be Faction Skillwheels and they would differ from one another by their abilities and prerequisite paths. On a lower level, inside a faction skillwheel, classes would benefit differently depending on which skills are available, but the abilities are the same for all the other classes under that faction skillwheel. Maybe their prerequisites could be different (would be better that way I think, otherwise there's too much to think about).
2. I consider that a number close to ~20 skills would be a good number. I already explained some ideas of skills.
3. This is important for the player. I believe that giving him as much information as possible is crucial. Therefore, all skills in existence should be represented in each skillwheel. It's easier when you see the big picture to make comparisons and to find skills. Also, in a partial representation, the skills would lose their original place, making the player have to look for them - and that's just a waste of time and nerves.
4. I like the distribution into 3 categories. So I'm thinking Might, Magic and another one, Neutral, Adventure, whichever name that would describe it best.
5. For consistency reasons and being closer to Heroes 5 as much as possible, I consider that a good maximum of abilities per skill would be a 5-4-3 so 12, and a good minimum a 3-2-1 so 6 (without counting eventual restrictions, for the level 3 mastery for example).
6. Yes, according to mastery levels.
7. Yes, internal prerequisites (abilities conditioning others inside the same skill) would be present. Heroes 5 Skillwheel had some rules for it, for example:
- mastery level (1, 2, 3) = number of abilities you could learn;
- mastery level (1, 2, 3) = availability of abilities of the same mastery level;
- at least 1 Basic ability as a prerequisite for an Advanced one;
- at least 2 Basic abilities OR 1 Basic and 1 Advanced as prerequisites for an Expert ability.
The way I imagine my system would keep the first 2 rules, but bypass the last 2. However, that won't give way to free pick, which is something I don't agree with at all, to level 2 and 3 abilities, there would be this rule instead:
- Advanced and Expert abilities will have at least 1 and 2 abilities as prerequisites (only not necessarily internal).
This would give a bit of a twist compared to the Heroes 5 Skillwheel, hopefully for the better. For example, take a look on the skillwheel I designed, in the Sorcery skill. There's one Advanced ability that doesn't have any internal prerequisites. In Heroes 5 we don't have anything like that.
8. Yes, external prerequisites (abilities conditioning others outside their own skill) would be present. I explained them above in tandem with the internal ones, no rules beyond that at this point.
9. No ultimate(s), as I consider them to shift the focus of the player from getting the build that he wants to getting the ultimates that he wants.
10. But, would there be ultimate(s), I thought of a system where the prerequisites of such an ability would be tied with the Might/Magic/Neutral categorization instead of a number of specific Skills. For example, one would read:
Requirements
- 2 Advanced abilities from Might;
- 1 Expert ability from Magic;
- 1 Advanced from Neutral.
Then the ultimate would unlock & learn itself without spending any extra level-up point on it. In this manner, you can manage the prerequisites more freely, rather than coercing the player to a certain pathway of skills.
11. Already illustrated my system in the first post of this thread. Only thing left to do would be assigning abilities and prerequisite pathways that would make sense.
The main advantages would be: very easy to get design a la Heroes 5, plethora of information and easy to compare one Skillwheel with another, intuitive skills and abilities and an immersive experience of progress and advancement when building up a Hero.
12. My vision of Skillwheel includes these important elements: Heroes 5 skillwheel design (for the most part), classes, might/magic/neutral categorization, 21 skills + 1 racial, 3 mastery levels and 3 abilities per mastery, internal/external prerequisites and no ultimates. That's basically it.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 20, 2015 07:02 PM |
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I understand now what you mean with internal and external requirements, something I agree with. What is your take on skill acquisition, though? Free pick or random?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 20, 2015 07:06 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:22, 20 Mar 2015.
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Random all the way. Heroes has always been about random development, and even though it might not be the best in term of potential, it's the best in terms of fun and game feel. Heroes 6 changed that and see how well it went - terrible. But that was like a single drop in all the mess Heroes 6 skill system delivered. I wouldn't want to see a system like that ever again.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted March 21, 2015 04:37 AM |
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Random for new skills, but free pick for existing ones.
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Micutz
Hired Hero
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posted March 23, 2015 01:50 PM |
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Stevie said:
[url=/PpKuDWq.jpg] [/url]
This is the way the skill system should have evolved, from the Heroes 5 skill wheel to better skill wheels. More depth and more interesting ways of building a hero.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 02:16 PM |
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This is a leaked screenshot of the Heroes 7 Skillwheel for the Chieftain class.
I think all related talk should go here, on this thread. Unfortunately I can't disclose any info for at least 2 days from now, but I'll be sure to write in absolute detail after the NDA expires, as I consider this to be a crucial topic which people don't appreciate enough.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 02:24 PM |
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Edited by foxxxer at 14:35, 28 Mar 2015.
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Ok, I'll copy paste my post from Discussion thread
foxxxer said:
Unfortunately my fears about the skill mechanics seem to come true. Considering that system was designed to be non-random at first place and this screenshot I can safely assume that the hero has 10 skills set on stone. It looks more restricting even than H6. I think the main skills for the Chieftain class are Bloodrage, Warfare and Defense considering the symmetry (for Ultimate abilities) and the red flames that bounder these skills. I’ll wait for the beta (if it’s open) to play and say if this system is gamebreaker for me but at first glimpse seems so. This would force many people to play only specific class of heroes (or even factions) which leads to no replayablity.
I would prefer for instance if the hero is Might type, 3 main skills set on stone (specific for each class) and everything else random with some restrictions of course. After the hero is Might you’ll be able to pick 3 Might skills, 2 Magic skills and 2 Neutral (or whatever they call them). For Magic hero – 3 Magic, 2 Might and 2 Neutral Skills. For the hybrid hero 3 Neutral, 2 Might and 2 Magic. As we can see there are Ultimate abilities (4th level) for the main skills so the classes would still be unique.
EDIT
Stevie, were you able to play different classes so you can "feel" the difference? I guess this doesn't break the NDA
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 28, 2015 02:32 PM |
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I will also (re)post my opinion:
Quote:
I am dissapointed by this "skill wheel" - we don't get any random at them - a class have always the same skills choosen by developers. Where is H2-5 random skill pick up? Why a hero can't learn a skill from all available?
For me this "skill wheel" is the same boring system as in Heores 6 but only looks better. Instead to unlock new skills/abilities at level 5, 15 and 25 as Heroes 6, you now must buy them by your skill points - that's the only difference I see. The rest is nearly the same - you always have the same skills/abilities available for a hero (so Imami - the Chieftan - will always has the same skills as you can see on skills UI screenshot) and you can't learn for example water magic. I don't even can image how you can learn new skills or abilities by adventue map buildings - Witch huts or University - I can guess if these buildings are on maps, they could offer +1 skill point for your hero.
So far I am really, really disapointed by Skill system - it's just a slighty better H6 one - which was very bad. Even skill/abilities icons are taken from H6 (Vitality = H6's Resilence).
On the plus site - we have 10 skills with 6 abilities each - so we have much to choose but if max hero level is 30, then we can max only half of them. Not good.
However - two thing can change that: Skill system seems to be still "work in progress" and I only saw one class screenshot, so maybe I am wrong about this system.
Quote:
My presumtions:
Basic skill has 3 abilities to choose
Advance skill has 2 abilities to choose
Expert skill has 1 ability to choose
Each class has 3 main skills: Chieftan has Bloodrage (Orc racial skill), Diplomacy and one more. Each of main skills has also Ultimate ability (the larger one at the center) - it's Father Sky's Fury for Bloodrage
You not only pick up abilities, you probably need also upgrade skills (level 2 and 3) to unlock new abilities and have to buy new skills (level 1 to unlock new skill tree and its basic abilities).
However this is only my theory based on this screenshot and some Q&A about how skill system will work in Heroes 7.
alcibiades said:
On a similar note: In the screenshot, we see that this class has access to 10 skills: 3 at expert level, 3 at advanced level, 4 at basic level. Are these the only skills this class has access to? If that's the case, we have a total of 3x6 + 3x4 + 4x2 = 38 skills and abilities, plus possibly some ultimate ability - still, we are in the vicinity of 40 skill options, which means your hero build will always be 75 % identical within the same class, once (if) you reach level 30. Can this really be true? If this is so, it's extremely lame, and a critical issue that needs to be addressed!
Yes, my main problem is what you pointed - this is the same boring system as in H6, when you nearly always choose the same skills and ablities per hero class. This will kill replayablity and make horo progress boring.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 02:34 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:36, 28 Mar 2015.
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foxxxer said:
EDIT
Stevie, were able to play different classes so you can "feel" the difference? I guess this doesn't break the NDA
Everything breaks the NDA, hinting, appreciating, opinions, any type of info. That's why I got warned when I said this on the Shadow Council:
Quote:
To be a bit more precise, the issues I saw are more on the gameplay side. The artwork for Stronghold (which is the faction we played with) is very good, probably the best of the 4 factions we've seen so far.
The Skillwheel is my nr.1 issue. It is very much Heroes 6 in the form of a Skillwheel. It has some novel features too but I don't think they necessarily help.
The UI is very intrusive, it follows you everywhere, Townscreen, Heroes, Adventure map, etc.
And other problems, can't detail tho.
I cannot say anything more unfortunately. Even just reiterating this and stirring things up might get me into trouble.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 03:03 PM |
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Stevie, I hope you've already prepared text wall analysis based on your experience for Monday  . The skill system is like the biggest element of the whole mechanics (any other element is connected to some extent to the skills). If there’s an issue regarding skills should be addressed and fixed even though would cost delaying of the game for 6-7 months more.
So I'll wait until Monday... 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 28, 2015 03:27 PM |
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foxxxer said:
Stevie, I hope you've already prepared text wall analysis based on your experience for Monday
No less than a fifteen pages pdf, pics not included
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
foxxxer said:
Stevie, I hope you've already prepared text wall analysis based on your experience for Monday
No less than a fifteen pages pdf, pics not included
God damn right, at least 15 pages A4  (And don't play with margins  )
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted March 28, 2015 04:03 PM |
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foxxxer said:
The skill system is like the biggest element of the whole mechanics (any other element is connected to some extent to the skills). If there’s an issue regarding skills should be addressed and fixed even though would cost delaying of the game for 6-7 months more.
Agreed. The skillwheel is currently my number one worry regarding this game. It is one of the most important features of the game, and they need to take their time in order to make it great.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 28, 2015 07:40 PM |
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That wheel, this one showing in H7, is even worst than my worst expectation, which was already low. If we could sue a Company for disappointment, this would be the perfect time, before the next wave of disappointment coming next week.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted March 28, 2015 08:08 PM |
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We don't even know which it is, cause you will be able to turn randomness on/off.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 28, 2015 10:04 PM |
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PandaTar said:
That wheel, this one showing in H7, is even worst than my worst expectation, which was already low. If we could sue a Company for disappointment, this would be the perfect time, before the next wave of disappointment coming next week.
After a crappy system like the one in H6 and having expectations of H5 standards, the above screen is a major disappointment
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted March 28, 2015 10:21 PM |
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Elvin said:
After a crappy system like the one in H6 and having expectations of H5 standards, the above screen is a major disappointment
True. They could have taken it directly from Heroes V and most wouldn't complain at all. Although it doesn't look bad it misses something, like interconnections between different abilities. At least racials are once more normal skills and this was something very much needed in VI.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2015 11:11 PM |
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Perhaps I am not seeing the same things you are, but, this actually looks really similar to the original H5 skill wheel. H5 "skill wheel" allowed for essentially 13 major skills, with one needing to be the class major skill (necromancy, avenger, so forth) and only being able to max out 5 others, if I am not mistaken, being about half of the total. That sounds... A LOT like our situation here, since having level 30 means you'd get about 6 out of these 10. Where did the other 3 major skills go? To the other major classes within a faction, which all have some differences. Though one thing this particular system doesn't have is the prerequisites for certain skills, which is disappointing. One reason I can see why this was removed was because there are now 6 classes per faction rather than one, so many of those chaining skills would have been harder to implement for each class. We lost one form of differentiation (the prereq skills) but instead got another (three different classes per archetype per faction), so to me, they semi-sorta average out. Like, before, a Knight could get Guardian Angel as a special subskill in Light Magic if they had certain prereqs. Now, they most likely will need to be Confessors or Priests to access a Guardian Angel-like Expert Light Magic skill. It's a different kind of prereq.
Even further, there was only 12 major skills and 1 extra skill for each race, for a total of 20. Now, there seem to be many more skills depending on which class you are. The total could be staggering.
Further more, the skill point problem... doesn't really matter. There seems to be skill points, but these are spent, seemingly, on either a major skill, or a sub skill in each level. And you likely get one skill point per level. Which sounds... almost exactly like the model of H5, where every level you get either a major skill upgrade or a sub skill. All this has is one extra step (the skill point) which would otherwise be automatically spent on level-up. But supposedly, the randomize function exists, so... what would be the difference?
Yes, it does seem simpler, but as far as I can tell it's very much like H5. Just different. And still much better than the H6 system.
Of course, I could be wrong every which way.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 29, 2015 01:22 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 01:23, 29 Mar 2015.
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Protolisk said:
Perhaps I am not seeing the same things you are, but, this actually looks really similar to the original H5 skill wheel. H5 "skill wheel" allowed for essentially 13 major skills, with one needing to be the class major skill (necromancy, avenger, so forth) and only being able to max out 5 others, if I am not mistaken, being about half of the total. That sounds... A LOT like our situation here, since having level 30 means you'd get about 6 out of these 10.
The point is that each class has been assigned 10 skills already, seemingly. So when you pick a class, you immediately and automatically pick the 10 skills that are available for development. You won't get access to any of the other skills whatsoever.
In Heroes5, every Hero could potentially get every skill out there - Heroes were just limited to 6 skills total. Here, the total appears to be 10, but you can't get anything else besides the 10 already pre-defined for the Hero Class in question. At least, that's the way it looks like, right now.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 01:26 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 04:30, 29 Mar 2015.
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That's the trade off you get with classes. Which begs the question if classes are even necessary to begin with. I won't go around throwing a definite answer, but so far it really seems rather underwhelming, if not worse.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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