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| Thread: Skillwheel Theorycrafting |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 11:39 PM |
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That's an interesting take on the Skillwheel, although I must admit I didn't fully understood it.
I'm interested in what you think about the Heroes 7 Skillwheel tho. What can you say about it?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 11:53 PM |
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my thoughts how to improve existing skillwheel (I do not like it and prefer homm 3, homm 4 and homm 5 systems)
- make each weheel and ray more visible cause each time player has to find proper ray, especially when all potential skills are visible
- possibility to achieve ultimate skills in all rays, not only in primary cause it limits freedom and sharply definies the hero and its future. Secondary skills seem to be less atractive. Besides, there culd be some limit of skills that can be maximized
- some combo skills and (dream)- making class combos
- some limits preventing to rush certain skills- some level restictions. I have rushed those blood rages
- the higher the skill is, the stronger and more attractive it should be. The strongest could give some % perks instead some minor numbers- sth like armourer in HoMM 3. Here almost all skills seem unattractive 
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 11:53 PM |
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my thoughts how to improve existing skillwheel (I do not like it and prefer homm 3, homm 4 and homm 5 systems)
- make each weheel and ray more visible cause each time player has to find proper ray, especially when all potential skills are visible
- possibility to achieve ultimate skills in all rays, not only in primary cause it limits freedom and sharply definies the hero and its future. Secondary skills seem to be less atractive. Besides, there culd be some limit of skills that can be maximized
- some combo skills and (dream)- making class combos
- some limits preventing to rush certain skills- some level restictions. I have rushed those blood rages
- the higher the skill is, the stronger and more attractive it should be. The strongest could give some % perks instead some minor numbers- sth like armourer in HoMM 3. Here almost all skills seem unattractive
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celiton
Hired Hero
Thinking before doing
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posted April 02, 2015 11:55 PM |
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Stevie said:
That's an interesting take on the Skillwheel, although I must admit I didn't fully understood it.
I'm interested in what you think about the Heroes 7 Skillwheel tho. What can you say about it?
Yes, it is really just a sample how things would work and there are many references to H4, which is the main inspiration of creating this. If you have any questions that caught your interest I will gladly try to answer :-)
And regarding H7 skillwheel, all I can say is that I saw it. :-) I have no clue how it would (I guess it might me explained somewhere in this thread :-) ) work.
But one thing I really want to know (and never read about it anywhere) is, At the event, did you play with H6 skill system or random skills system?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 11:58 PM |
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The build we played did not include randomness, not to my knowledge. I suspect it was probably too early for the random system to be implemented. We just picked our skills by hand, same as in the gameplay video.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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celiton
Hired Hero
Thinking before doing
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posted April 03, 2015 12:03 AM |
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Stevie said:
The build we played did not include randomness, not to my knowledge. I suspect it was probably too early for the random system to be implemented. We just picked our skills by hand, same as in the gameplay video.
Thank you for clarifying, so the random skills system still remains a mystery. For it means it is too soon to judge. There is still a chance, that RSS might improve the general gameplay. :-)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 04, 2015 01:56 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 19:34, 06 Apr 2015.
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As Stevie said, the random system is not implemented yet. We played pre-alpha.
IIRC they did promote back in August they would "gather the best ideas from the series, including h6."
So what do I think when I see the h6 tree forced into a wheel, what is the question I ask myself? Are they actually considering the best skill system was in h6??
Please someone reassure me.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 04, 2015 10:43 AM |
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H6 was way too streamlined, maybe if H7 is just very streamlined people won't complain? Like Crag Hack said, thinking hurts too much 
Simple just doesn't cut it, not when the game does not have something outstanding that makes it stand out from the rest. It should appeal to casual gamers but you don't want to disappoint the fanbase you already have either. H7 skill system does not offer any skill variety whatsoever, an attack skill is the same no matter which hero class picks it, whether they are from the same faction or not. There is no actual specialization within its tree because there are no prerequisites. There are no paths to choose from. The only relevant decision to make is what skills you want but things have evolved since H3 and I expect more. Why could they not make attack with a melee, a ranged and a heroic strike specialization with advanced abilities allowing further specialization in each field? Why could there not be more than 2 advanced abilities and 1 expert ability in each skill? There is not much to decide on, you just pick the more advanced abilities you can, from the skills that suit you.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 11:20 AM |
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I am not sure about there being more perks per skill. We already have like 30 skills, while Heroes 5 had 12 with a nice variety of perks + 6 (8 with expansions) racial ones with only 3 and a 1 ultimate. So I think that 6 perks per skill is alright.
Though it would be nice to have a few prerequisties here and there and some perks being replaced by faction specific ones.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 05, 2015 08:10 PM |
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30 skills is part of the problem, I don't see why we need that many. I'm sure 15 could fit that purpose just as well.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 08:53 PM |
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Elvin said:
30 skills is part of the problem, I don't see why we need that many. I'm sure 15 could fit that purpose just as well.
Probably because if there was fifteen, the perks in each would be tied together into the same skills, and then the heroes (if we are still saying each'd get 10) would become more similar, as there'd be very little differences between similar heroes. Which would need to be solve by likely reducing the number of heroes per faction down to the 1 might and 1 magic. But still, 10 out of 15 provides for little differences, and considering each faction has a racial, and it seems racials are a skill: OOPS, there you go, the 5 left out are the 5 the other races get because they are their racial instead. And with the system being chosen (not random, right now) then you'd have the exact same problem people are angry about H6: Heroes would look almost identical. With randomness, you'd have some differences due to random chance, but, still, the problem is there. Though I suppose you'd combine each of the other skills to have 12 perks now, which would be nice, but you also want some to be allowed for prerequisites, which mean that although you'd have some differences between one faction to another, within the faction you'd be locked out of other factions unique perks, so you'd only have the general , non-faction affiliated perks and maybe a perk for your faction.
In the end, you'd still have little skill diversity within a faction, but you'd add more choice.
Wait, wasn't the fact that you could choose nearly everything in H6 a problem, as well as it's dumb spells-as-skills system? Hmm.
H7 seems to have more choice than H5 due to actually picking things, but less choice due to the 10 out of 30, where H5 had only 13 ish out of 20 (if Barbarian skills are equal to respective other factions light, dark, and so on) In H5, without the skill levels them selves, it seems there are about 90 perks that are universal, with roughly 15 skills per faction that may or may not be unique (I'm not going through each factions perks individually, but using the total number of levels needed according to the Skill Wheel program for level differentiation. Though it may seem to be 15, it might be less, and that the Barbarians simply just can't get as much skills as other, which seems likely, with a max 120 level, but Demon Lord is at 146) so that may add up to about 213 perks, including ultimate skills (as those are included) However, I should likely remove 8 of those, as the program adds "ultimate" level mastery as a level instead of the pendant of mastery, so really that's around 205. Now, for H7, we have at least 6 times 30, we have about 180 skills, plus perhaps 15-30 (do all skills have an ultimate perk?) which is anywhere from 195 to 210 perks, including ultimates. Now, that looks really close to the 213 number, which was shared between 8 factions. With every faction added into H7, you could count on a whole new racial skill, so an extra likely 7 perks per faction (3 novice, 2 expert, 1 master, 1 ultimate), at the very least. If you brought that up to 8 factions, you could have roughly 209-224 perks, surpassing H5. The difference is that H5 required the percent chance of getting some skills, and H7 excludes many skills. Yes, the end result is that H5 can theoretically get any perk available to them if they get lucky, where H7 can't due to lock outs of 20 skills and the master rank on select skills. Still, there are 36 classes in 6 factions compared to the 8 of H5. Some choices will have to be made, but I suppose people don't want choice due to H6, yet they also want choice since H7 is not all inclusive. The reasoning is boggling to me.
Yes, I didn't count each and every one of the skills on that program to see which were overlapping, so my total count for H5 might be off. If you'd like to prove me wrong/right by literally adding them all together, be my guest.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 05, 2015 10:33 PM |
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There's no reason to assume a hero would need to learn a total of 10 skills. Heroes 3 allowed only 8 skills, and H5 only 6 skills including the racial one (which admittedly was too few). But I think you can come a long way by letting a hero learn 6 or 7 skills besides the racial one. That would still be plenty of variation if you had a pool of 15 skills to pick from.
I definitely agree that 30 skills are way too many. If we retain the idea that skills are divided into three groups - might, magic and transitional - a good target to aim for would be 18 skills excluding the racials. That would be 6 in each group, which sits comfortably with four magic schools + two additional magic skills.
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What will happen now?
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 01:44 AM |
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I don't think H5 and H7 can be compared on sheer skill ratio. Let's not forget based from what I got from Stevie and interview that in h5 you get 1 skill = 3 perk cap. In h7 there is no cap so you could take 5/6 perk from one skill. Also skill wheel may be customized has there is one for each class of the different faction. Although there is now way off knowing for sure;
- This could mean that some class does not have access to certain skill out of the 30 (likely)
- This could also mean that the perk between faction or orientation are different (not sure off the likelihood of this one well at least not entirely)
too streamlined ----> less streamlined : I quote this has I'd hate to pass for a granny blabbering the same gibberish.
While its true it require also some tweaking to make the correlation I like these course has it create a more dynamic skill wheel. Provided that these said skill are a little bit more powerful it create more choice. If you need two skill/perk to unlock them it encourage change in the decision making.
Will I take 5 perk in warfare or 2 in warfare, 2 in defense and 1 in magic to get this perk that looks promising. For example the opposing hero has strong anti magic why would I take aggressive magical perk unless combined with something else it unlock some anti magic or piercing magic perk. Some skill that would not be considered might be partially if their some incentive behind it.
The difference for me is it help the developer create logical path when they get the hang off the game and they can encourage skill variety if well tough out especially in the long run and if the heroes specialty are taken in the mix.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 06, 2015 04:46 AM |
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This number 30 is still unfathomable to me. I really wanted to know what they are individually speaking. I can't see why they are too many or too few with all info divulged so far which is, afaik, none whatsoever.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2015 05:19 AM |
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Edited by artu at 05:20, 06 Apr 2015.
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What's wrong with "too many" skills, really? As long as they are not useless or too similar, I say the more the merrier. It means more variation and possibilites. You dont like a skill, dont pick it.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 05:32 AM |
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 08:10 AM |
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Let's look at it this way
8 out off 28 for H3 29% ; 5 out of 9 H4 for 55% ; 5 (excluding racial) out of 12 in H5 give you 41% (correct me for the number as there coming from the top of my head) I have not taken into consideration secondary due to lack of information in H7 and divergence between game but they would normally soak up some of those skill.
H7 would be between 16% to 33% (30% if racial is inevitable Mr. Anderson) maybe a little more if out off the 30 some are off limit. Even in that case you do not have them. It can have a certain impact on the game if for most of the map you're walking with 50% off the possible skill instead of 30%. Maybe some are very good fortune teller but think off it in the situation it would matter the most a map with 6 to 8 player and each carrying 30% off the skill and add the unknown factor.
On the other hand we do not have the essence off the skill and what ratio of them is useful all the time,etc. Some perk may even compensate/replace skills well not figuratively but think off trading two damage booster. Or the 3 additional perk in one skill could compensate/same impact for a skill and 3 perk not taken. I also agree that we don't know much about the system yet.
However everything come at an expanse and it's not a bad thing to analyze it a little bit witch is why I quoted a phrase with make much sense to me right know.
I stand also for lower number but if they can demonstrate a system that work and get me addicted I would not spit on it neither. I just hope that for the sake off balance we do not compromise diversity that much witch I find nowadays quite common.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 08:20 AM |
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castiel_789 said:
Let's look at it this way
8 out off 28 for H3 29% ; 5 out of 9 H4 for 55% ; 5 (excluding racial) out of 12 in H5 give you 41% (correct me for the number as there coming from the top of my head)
H7 would be at 30% to 33% depending if racial is avoidable maybe a little more if out off the 30 some are off limit. Even in that case you do not have them. It can have a certain impact on the game if for most of the map you're walking with 50% off the possible skill instead of 30%. Maybe some are very good fortune teller but think off it in the situation it would matter the most a map with 6 to 8 player and each carrying 30% off the skill and add the unknown factor.
On the other hand we do not have the essence off the skill and what ratio of them is useful all the time,etc. Some perk may even compensate/replace skills well not figuratively but think off trading two damage booster. Or the 3 additional perk in one skill could compensate/same impact for a skill and 3 perk not taken. I also agree that we don't know much about the system yet.
However everything come at an expanse and it's not a bad thing to analyze it a little bit witch is why I quoted a phrase with make much sense to me right know.
I stand also for lower number but if they can demonstrate a system that work and get me addicted I would not spit on hit neither. I just hope that for the sake off balance we do not compromise diversity that much witch I find nowadays quite common.
The problem, I think, is that even with 30-33%, as you say, you really can't get all of them either. Since there is only 30 levels, you could attempt to get all the levels of all 10 skills, minus 4 because of the mastery skill lock-outs... and then only get 4 perks in total after that. For every perk you try to gain, you lose a level of mastery from that from another skill. If you try to get an ultimate, you go from having nearly all the skills at maximum mastery (with no perks) besides 2, one without any points, the other with one, to allow for enough points (7) to get an ultimate. If you attempt to go for a second ultimate, you go from not having 2 skills at max to at least 3 skills losing all their mastery, after that last one, perhaps more, depending on which skills you sap from. So, in reality, you'd probably have around all 10 skills with very minimal perks, but if you want perks and ultimates, you are likely going to have about 6 or even 5 skills. Which, instead of being 30-33%, is more like 20% down to maybe 16%. Pretty small, so they don't like it.
I can see why, but at the same time, I don't mind it.
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 06, 2015 09:22 AM |
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Protolisk said:
The problem, I think, is that even with 30-33%, as you say, you really can't get all of them either. Since there is only 30 levels, you could attempt to get all the levels of all 10 skills, minus 4 because of the mastery skill lock-outs... and then only get 4 perks in total after that. For every perk you try to gain, you lose a level of mastery from that from another skill. If you try to get an ultimate, you go from having nearly all the skills at maximum mastery (with no perks) besides 2, one without any points, the other with one, to allow for enough points (7) to get an ultimate. If you attempt to go for a second ultimate, you go from not having 2 skills at max to at least 3 skills losing all their mastery, after that last one, perhaps more, depending on which skills you sap from. So, in reality, you'd probably have around all 10 skills with very minimal perks, but if you want perks and ultimates, you are likely going to have about 6 or even 5 skills. Which, instead of being 30-33%, is more like 20% down to maybe 16%. Pretty small, so they don't like it.
I can see why, but at the same time, I don't mind it.
Your absolutely right I have not taken that into account and passed right trough it. There is also the fact that secondary hero carry a load off the skill set but let leave it at that since we do not know how much of the like of economy and explorer there is in this one.
I will edit for a range of number taking into considering the smallest amount of skill possible if maxed out to the highest possible skill of 10.
I think I can see why. Some friend of mine like to figure it along the road it might not be that but some people like it that way. I myself like to have the number on my side but that personal preference and none is better than any witch is also fine.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 06, 2015 09:45 AM |
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I dont see that as a problem, preferring one thing is always abandoning another, I dont want every hero to have most of the skills, I want every hero to have good skills. Actually, I prefer heroes with different skills and variety, instead of all of them having the approximately same 50 percent. The only problem would be if some skills are suberb such as Earth Magic and some totally useless like Learnlng, so that's something to watch out.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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