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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Sexism and the like and how to avoid it
Thread: Sexism and the like and how to avoid it This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted July 26, 2015 03:18 PM
Edited by kiryu133 at 12:04, 08 Aug 2015.

Sexism and the like and how to avoid it

(If this belongs somewhere else, i apologize. just thought this would fit here as a "guideline" to the forum of sorts)

Sexism is pretty prevalent in the world. It happens all the time everywhere and is often invisible to most people as it's the kind of sexism that is socially acceptable. I'm talking stuff like commenting on a woman's looks without knowing here. pursuing a romantic relationship with someone even if she's made clear to not be interested. Only stopping pursuing it once it's found out she's already "taken". Using femininity as an insult and all these kinds of things. They're everywhere and usually something most people don't think about because it's everywhere and is considered socially acceptable behaviour. This is something that needs to stop and be weeded out wherever it happens If we are to ever get a fair and equal society. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject but it is important to me so I'd made a couple of points that should be easy to follow and shouldn't take too much effort to make use off.

Part One: How do i react to accusations.

If someone says I'm a sexist or something i said is, how do i react?

1/ Don't lash out
usually if someone tells you you or something you said is sexist they most likely don't mean it in a "beats women" kind of way. Sexism is more than that and it's likely you don't necessarily is aware of how deep it can go. Lashing out or attacking is no way to defend yourself.

2/ Try to figure out what it was that was or could be interpreted as sexist.
Look back at what you said and find what it was made the person react. Understand what it was you said that was sexist.

      2b/ If you can't find it, ask.
      No decent person is going to find you unintelligent or stupid when you ask what the problem is. If you can't find it, ask. The person pointing it out should help you understand how and why that was sexist. Sometimes you might've been accused without grounds. It happens, people make mistakes. tell them why you think that might've happened.

3/ Do something about it.
This is probably the hardest point but also the most important. When you understand what it is you did is sexist, try and avoid it. Don't say that again and learn to recognise it when it happens so you don't make that mistake again.


Part two: Why you should care.

This is probably going to be the hardest to explain since i'm rather terrible with words, but whatever, let's roll! Casual sexism, the act of being sexist in a socially acceptable way, is very common and the primary contributor to sexism in society. Things like seeing women as possessions to be enjoyed by men as things rather than a fellow human being takes its start there. Things like continually expecting women to dress or look a certain way because they should. Things like finding it acceptable to comment a woman's look or outfit simply because she's a woman. Seeing sex with a woman as an accomplishment and worth celebrating but finding female suxuality to be dirty or undesirable. These things among other happen all the time everywhere and are a huge contributor to Women being forced to do or say things they might not agree with and being forced out of occupations or fandoms.

We can stop this by pointing it out and condemning it whenever and wherever it happens. Making people aware of what they're saying is not only unacceptable but can have terrible consequences in the long run will help stop it and contribute to a more pleasant experience for everyone: you're not losing anything by not not saying sexist remarks but everyone loses if you do, you included. All it takes is a bit of knowledge and precautions.

Part three: What should we look out for?

Gendered insults
These trivialises an entire gender. Calling someone any of these in an insulting way compromises an entire gender and implies it is inferior. Don't do it.

Joking with sexism.
When your "joke" is indistinguishable from actual sexism it's not a joke. It's sexism.

Trivialising sexism
A bit harder to really see, but whenever someone tries to argue that the genders are already equal and it's wrong to point it out, they're being sexist. this can not only be hard to but also hard to change as it comes from the belief that everything is fine as it is. It's not and is similar to denying the holocaust.


There are much more than this but it should do for a first attempt. If anyone feel like adding something, let me know and I'll look into it.


Closing thoughts: Most, if not all of this applies to racism, homophobia and transphobia as well. I just decided to use Sexism since that's what i find the easiest to discuss.

Links: (will update when i find good links)
Angry jack (Primarily about gamergate)
Arkham knight (Not completely relevant but a worthy read)
An example
Hollywood inequality
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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Wog refugee
posted July 26, 2015 03:34 PM

Oh gosh, how boring are those "look at me how righteous I am" attitudes.


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Neraus
Neraus


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Pizza Nazi
posted July 26, 2015 03:37 PM

If I did the same every time Atheists told me I'm an idiot for being a Catholic I would probably have filled the internet and have lost a hand and two legs in a fight...

Point of advice, next time post this in the OSM, the Tavern is for... what? Chilling out in a non spammy way?
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted July 26, 2015 03:38 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 15:39, 26 Jul 2015.

An interesting thought here is who's influencing Swedish dudes?

So to follow up, when did you first start to interest yourself with discrimination towards women, e.g. where you introduced by someone or was it something you realized by yourself, in which case during what events? And how did you reach your current stand point?

Edit: Oups I thought this was osm.
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Neraus
Neraus


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posted July 26, 2015 03:41 PM

It's actually an interesting point, when did everyone become so uptight? Usually in my circles we tell sexist jokes to girls in the group and they respond with another sexist joke, and we all get a good heartedly laugh.

By the way, I find it extremely sexist to portray men as clumsy home-makers in commercials or complete retards when choosing clothing...
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Zenofex
Zenofex


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Kreegan-atheist
posted July 26, 2015 03:44 PM

Free political correctness lessons, everyone! Gather 'round!

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kiryu133
kiryu133


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Highly illogical
posted July 26, 2015 03:58 PM

Neraus said:
If I did the same every time Atheists told me I'm an idiot for being a Catholic I would probably have filled the internet and have lost a hand and two legs in a fight...

Point of advice, next time post this in the OSM, the Tavern is for... what? Chilling out in a non spammy way?


A lot of Atheists are... snows. Not going to deny that. Done my fair share of hating on religion and i regret that.

Since this was more for trying to help with this forum in particular i went for the tavern. I think it's the right place for this, but i'm not sure. It's not for discussing Sexism in the real world, but to try and help this place avoiding it. Maybe the tribunal? I don't know. It's welcome to be moved if deemed necessary.

Neraus said:
It's actually an interesting point, when did everyone become so uptight? Usually in my circles we tell sexist jokes to girls in the group and they respond with another sexist joke, and we all get a good heartedly laugh.


Friendly circles and stuff probably have their own sort of rules and understanding and as long as everyone is aware of the joke and find it to be as such I can't really complain. It's your friends, not mine. A tip might be to ask about it next time. It's not unheard off of women pretending to laugh at sexist jokes and such to try and fit in in certain circles.

OhforfSake said:
An interesting thought here is who's influencing Swedish dudes?

So to follow up, when did you first start to interest yourself with discrimination towards women, e.g. where you introduced by someone or was it something you realized by yourself, in which case during what events? And how did you reach your current stand point?


Female friends and good upbringing i guess? I don't really know, i just think everyone should be treated equally no matter race, gender or sexual orientation.


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NoobX
NoobX


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My Pattern Emerges
posted July 26, 2015 04:03 PM

Zenofex said:
Free political correctness lessons, everyone! Gather 'round!

Hear, hear!
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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted July 26, 2015 04:05 PM
Edited by Adrius at 16:58, 26 Jul 2015.

Guides like these are plentisome on the internet and have been repeated hundred times over by knowledgable women and racialized people over the years. Could've linked to one of those. Still, a nice initiative.

Personally I don't have the energy nor feel any responsibility to educate people on these topics. I'll still mark my disapproval but my point is I'd rather link to someone more knowledgable than me (preferably someone who actually experiences racism/sexism)  than talk about it myself.
Mostly, If people are genuinely interested in learning they will look up info and read themselves, if not they won't listen anyway so whatever.

Edit: edited to clarify.
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TDL
TDL


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The weak suffer. I endure.
posted July 26, 2015 04:07 PM

You won't force your views on other people, as much as you try. Some women prefer to think of themselves as something to be treasured, to be fought for, etc., equaling themselves to a prize. No wonder such things are prevalent in male dominated communities (ie, eastern block countries).

Personally, I might be sexist to an extent and I do not care in the slightest. I respect women as they are, for whatever reasons which are my own. And I disrespect them when situation needs be: if you strive for equality, be prepared to receive the same (since physical strength is an issue, a verbal tirade is the proper resolution).

Also, snow those who are sensitive. I have no tolerance of weak people. You have to have enough mettle to make fun of yourself and see things with a hint of salt. Otherwise, don't weep when someone exhibits improper behaviour.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted July 26, 2015 04:09 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 16:10, 26 Jul 2015.

I don't disagree with the overall idea or spirit behind the points of relevant issues such as fight against sexism. I think that no one who so wishes should be discriminated against. My issue is the condescending.
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Neraus
Neraus


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posted July 26, 2015 04:10 PM
Edited by Neraus at 16:12, 26 Jul 2015.

Such is the hour of the greatest strife in this forum, t'was only a matter of time...

I have a question though, are people now as a majority sensitive to harmless behaviours?

I'm honest, I'm sexist, I hold the door for women and treat them better than males, such is the life of following a Chivalric code.
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fred79
fred79


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posted July 26, 2015 04:16 PM
Edited by fred79 at 16:20, 26 Jul 2015.

i read the opening post, and i laughed out loud. i guess this thread was a public service message to all those who can joke about serious human issues. but decency is one thing; telling someone what they should do or how they should act is another(especially when it comes to humor). plus, there are far more important problems at hand, regarding humanity or any of it's inner workings, than sexism or racism.

take a look outside the world of humanity; take your mind off of people and their societal problems, and look at the world around you, and how it is being affected by human society. that's far more important, and will help the human race in the long run.

focusing on equality at this point(while i'm all for it, don't get me wrong), is like when g.w. bush made a big deal about gays getting married, instead of discussing the war in iraq, and it's short or long-lasting effects on various things. the little problems should never be prioritized over the larger issues. we can worry about equality later. better to focus on overpopulation, pollution, and resource management. everyone will benefit from that equally. then we can go back to making sure humans are treating other humans equally.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted July 26, 2015 04:24 PM

Personally I don't mind people choosing any particular issue to fight for, no matter how irrelevant others think they are. E.g. many don't agree with my that finding ways to prevent aging is an interesting issue, because for many, increased amount of elderly people is an issue by itself. Others have other reasons too.

What I think is more relevant is how fighting for ones issue is dealt with. Stuff like the OP already assuming one parts is absolutely correct in the manner only comes off as condescending in my eyes. It takes two to discuss, both sides should reflect on themselves as the discussion develops. It should never be a teacher pupil like ad implied.
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kiryu133
kiryu133


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posted July 26, 2015 04:38 PM

OhforfSake said:
What I think is more relevant is how fighting for one's issue is dealt with. Stuff like the OP already assuming one parts is absolutely correct in the manner only comes off as condescending in my eyes. It takes two to discuss, both sides should reflect on themselves as the discussion develops. It should never be a teacher pupil like ad implied.


Sorry if I sound condescending. I don't think anyone is a worse person just because they don't know of or are aware of an issue. If you are not aware, what harm is there in simply adjusting a tiny part of your life to make sure more people can feel welcome and respected? I'm fighting for people being decent to each other and being against that is saying it's ok to be an snow. There shouldn't be a debate about that.

I don't think anyone wants to be a jerk. I want to help people realize when they are so they can take necessary precautions to not be it and expect the same thing in return: I want people to call me out when I'm a jerk. Because I will be. It's natural. No one is a lesser person until they start defending bad behaviour.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted July 26, 2015 04:49 PM

It's only positive wanting people to be good towards each other.
It's negative not to live up to those standards yourself while trying to reach said goal.

I e.g. don't think I'm a sexist, but it hasn't stopped people telling me I am without wanting to clear it out. Then it's difficult to see the difference when e.g. nightterror or adrius uses the exact same terminology, that one is a the blood god and the other is evil incarnate.

So if you call out on someone being a sexist, or on any other issue, be prepared that.
1) The person may not agree.
2) You may not have been correct.

Also please accept in a discussion like these, people should be on equal terms. I don't think it helps to see one as part as the more educated one, that is something the text itself should show, not a stance already taken and assumed to always be so, because then it may be very difficult to reflect upon oneself.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted July 26, 2015 04:52 PM

Neraus said:
when did everyone become so uptight?


Not everyone but actually VERY few, thats why they need to be so loud. Commonly the people ferociously fighting against "sexism" are of two kind: a) youngsters under 25, part of the new generation who actually never had to put a fight for the freedom of speech thus they are clueless about how overriding should be in ANY circumstances, and b) gays and some middle-age single women confused within their sexuality acceptance who use this quixotic windmills fight to expel their frustration about the stereotypes they suspect others to mischievously plot.  

Oh yes, there ARE actually huge parts in the world where sexism and racism is REAL, admire the middle west in all its brutal and criminal intolerance. Where women are forcefully married before the age of 9 then get their genitals cut away, where they are forcefully covered from toe to head because men decided so, when anyone not believing in white flying horses is risking the death penalty and where homosexuals are hanged without trial.

But no, instead of concentrating your efforts where it actually matters, where people concerned suffer for REAL, you prefer to play again and again this theatrical music here, in an environment where individual rights are at their optimal development, just to give yourself a righteous image while taking absolutely no risk.

Gimme back my sexist jokes. The wise man knows when to laugh and when to worry.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


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posted July 26, 2015 05:02 PM

OhforfSake said:


So if you call out on someone being a sexist, or on any other issue, be prepared that.
1) The person may not agree.
2) You may not have been correct.


Oh yeah, didn't think about that. I'll update

@salamandre
Just because somewhere else has it worse doesn't mean we have it good. I choose to focus on the western world and if you want to do something about the middle east, go do it. I won't stop you. But don't stop me trying to help people here. You're in the way of progress.
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EnergyZ
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posted July 26, 2015 05:27 PM

Aren't racism, nationalism, ethnicism or even religism more dangerous variants of discrimination than just sexism?

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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posted July 26, 2015 05:33 PM

I don't think just because it's worse one place, one shouldn't do something here, but I DON'T SEE any sexism here. I don't think Fred is a sexist culprit. I think the point is about being able to know when to fight ones battles / pick the right battles... I don't know how much of Fred's post you've read, but I don't see him as woman hating in any way.
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