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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?
Thread: Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted August 13, 2015 02:37 PM

I prefer H4 to H5, mainly because H5 borrowed heavily from popular franchises and plays like a slower version of King's Bounty.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted August 13, 2015 02:43 PM

Well, I agree about those parts. These ideas Ubi is producing; one could call them original, but a lot of them are bad ideas, badly put in. I meant original that they could use new creature models, not changing the gameplay so drastically.

alcibiades said:
naïvely


What's this word about?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2015 02:48 PM

"Are we being reasonable in our expectations of the developers?"

Definitely not. Not because of us, but because of them. This display of incompetence renders any kind of expectation, no matter how small, utterly unreasonable.
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The Young Traveler

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 13, 2015 02:53 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 14:53, 13 Aug 2015.

EnergyZ said:
alcibiades said:
naïvely

What's this word about?

As, being naïve?
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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 13, 2015 02:55 PM

meroe said:
I think the majority of people have been totally unreasonable.  I can barely bring myself to go on the website now because of all the ridiculous and troll-like whinging - "this is c**p" and "why can't they do *this*" (just because they specifically like something).  

<--->

If Ubi had just kept it all under wraps and then released it, all we would be doing is either praising the a** off the developers or moaning about things we can't (and wouldn't have been able) to change anyway.


This, this and exactly this. Somebody QP him/her.
There would've been so much lesser hate and fraction in the "fanbase" if UbiLimbic simply did their job and throw the game on the fans. No OpenDev, no votes, nothing.
This OpenDev proved ineffective and, in my eyes, is a disaster. Maybe it will work with some other "fanbase", I don't know.
As always - good intentions (upfront ofc, the main reason was PR) that led to the epic fail.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 13, 2015 02:58 PM

sandro400 said:
There would've been so much lesser hate and fraction in the "fanbase" if UbiLimbic simply did their job and throw the game on the fans. No OpenDev, no votes, nothing.
This OpenDev proved ineffective and, in my eyes, is a disaster. Maybe it will work with some other "fanbase", I don't know.
As always - good intentions (upfront ofc, the main reason was PR) that led to the epic fail.

Frankly, I disagree. It may not be much we have accomplished, and it might have caused less friction, but we have every reason to believe that the game would have been (even) worse if we hadn't been heard at all.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted August 13, 2015 02:59 PM

My expectations have been perfectly reasonable.  I expected to be disappointed and I was.

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keldaur
keldaur


Adventuring Hero
posted August 13, 2015 03:07 PM

Avirosb said:
keldaur said:
Yes, they are recycling models, have you seen their deadline ?
So, mismanagement then.
That depends on the resources they have had avaibles to manage.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 13, 2015 03:08 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 15:10, 13 Aug 2015.

Me didn't care much. From the point they took the 3D path, Heroes 5 and +, my interest for sequels dropped to minimum and all details around look to me like bees on a rotten fruit. I just can't handle board games going that way, battlefields starving from 95% screen place to 50%, map visibility going from huge areas to a partial wood mine, creatures from fantasy-outfit to Yves Saint-Laurent fashion.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 13, 2015 03:14 PM
Edited by Stevie at 15:15, 13 Aug 2015.

sandro400 said:
This, this and exactly this. Somebody QP him/her.
There would've been so much lesser hate and fraction in the "fanbase" if UbiLimbic simply did their job and throw the game on the fans. No OpenDev, no votes, nothing.
This OpenDev proved ineffective and, in my eyes, is a disaster. Maybe it will work with some other "fanbase", I don't know.
As always - good intentions (upfront ofc, the main reason was PR) that led to the epic fail.


Completely disagree. The "epic fail" you speak of lies with Ubilimbic's inability to deliver, not with the criticism ensuing as a result. Don't try playing any blame game here, it's certainly not the fanbase's fault that the game ended up like this by any stretch of the imagination. It's all on them.
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The Young Traveler

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 13, 2015 03:26 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 14 Aug 2015.
Edited by sandro400 at 15:32, 13 Aug 2015.

alcibiades said:

Frankly, I disagree. It may not be much we have accomplished, and it might have caused less friction, but we have every reason to believe that the game would have been (even) worse if we hadn't been heard at all.


It's perfectly fine, I just stated my opinion.
What did "we" really accomplish? Get random skills? Ok, I have every reason to think that random system was actually going to be from the very start, they simply let us feel that "fans can do a lot". The sad part is that the current skill syste is not optiized for random, but hey, we have random system back!!! Ofc I don't have any proofs, just my opinion.
Redesign of Vampire and Lich? And for what cost? They stated many times that this redesign will come at some cost to the development. I now think that this cost is the Black Dragon...
What else did we accomplish? Bring Sylvan and Dungeon? Honestly, I prefer Dwarves and Demons to them (even if I like current Dungeon, yes, you heard right).

I even made a little social experiment. For a long time now I was doing translations of the SC's posts to my native language and received some praise/upvotes. But I was simply posting them on the blog, no discussion/anything. Recently I've decided to "open up" and asked people to discuss the translations (. What do you think, after this "opendev" experiment the number of upvotes started to decline and people started to complain, sometimes even becoming nit-picky. =) I've had such a strong moment of deja vu. ^^

I'll admit that I was in favor of the SC and thought it's a great idea. For the first part (Haven and Academy, faction votes) everything was smooth even. But later devs have "loosened the leash", maybe they simply don't have enough crowd control techniques or their PR department as a whole said "vacation time!" and Ubi lost the favor. They did mistakes, and, well, on our side we as well have fans who claim "we know what to do better than developers" (which I don't think is true). Tensions were rising, eventually this fairytalish (oh the irony) atmosphere of the SC crumbled on itself. Do we have any dev attention now? Not at all. I no longer see Marzhin aroung, Arnaud had this one moment of sunshine with modding article and he's gone now as well. Even their moderator (if I may call her so), Moshi, is mostly ignoring "councillors". Thank you, Shadow Council! A note for Stevie: Shadow Council does not equal to fans. I hope you see this.

A lesson to the devs, in my opinion: do not let fans do your business. I understand you may have had better intentions, but one mistake (and this is Ubi, they're sure to make mistakes) and you lose all that fan support. It's psychology, people forget all good deeds whenever you make even one bad deed.
If you think it's a good PR, then look to the companies (even to yourself, Ubi) - I don't even remember anything resembling SC and for a good reason.

I think I made it clear already, but one last time: IMHO.

Stevie said:
Completely disagree. The "epic fail" you speak of lies with Ubilimbic's inability to deliver, not with the criticism ensuing as a result. Don't try playing any blame game here, it's certainly not the fanbase's fault that the game ended up like this by any stretch of the imagination. It's all on them.


Take your time, please, and re-read the post to which I agreed and stated my opinion, then, maybe, you'll see there're no "blame games" as you said.
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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted August 13, 2015 03:41 PM

I truly think this is solely Ubi's fault and not limbic. They have provided stunning 3d models of new and old creatures when they're given the chance. If they would have been given the opportunity to make a new black dragon I'm sure they would have impressed me. If the amount of effort that went into stronghold was put into the rest of the game there wouldn't be anything to complain about.

theres just not a whole lot to be excited about with the game. The return of classic creatures is nice but mostly because everything new is typically unimaginative and boring (imo). We got puppet constructs, noun + forest critter, spiders, more elves....what is there to be excited about? I have to lower my standards to basically nothing to like anything new.

Instead of scrapping together a half ass faction like dungeon, they should have just planned on 5 factions with a 4/4/2 creature pool to pick from, thus bringing something new to the game and not being so damn cheap and also letting players keep more of their favorite creatures.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted August 13, 2015 03:43 PM
Edited by verriker at 15:45, 13 Aug 2015.

sandro400 said:
There would've been so much lesser hate and fraction in the "fanbase" if UbiLimbic simply did their job and throw the game on the fans. No OpenDev, no votes, nothing.


you forget though that Team Erwin cannot do that, don't forget the article of Julian Benson, Erwin's vision for the game as a creator is widely considered bad and incompetent, he and the team did precisely what you suggest with Heroes 6 already and there was massive hate and fraction then too because it sucked lol

Julian Benson said:
One of the people responsible for building this new Might & Magic is brand director Erwan Le Breton. He’s a veteran: having worked as a producer on the last four Might & Magic games. HIs work on Heroes VI began with a team brainstorm: what would the perfect Might and Magic game include? Their conclusions: more levels of strategy, an RPG reputation system like the one in Bioware’s games, they wanted to have some of the persistent elements they were seeing in MMOs, like an always connected community of adventurers.

Players hated it.

“The community was saying Heroes 6 was the worst game in the series ever,” Le Breton tells me. “All the changes that I mentioned […] they said it wasn’t heroes.”


Erwin said:
“We want to do a good game but don’t have a vision for how Heroes should be.”


they have literally suggested that if we hadn't made ourselves heard, they would keep defaulting back to the horrible vision of Heroes 6 because they lack the talent to think of another one lol
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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 13, 2015 03:57 PM

If anyone missed the article here it is: (clicky)

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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
Official spokesbirb
posted August 13, 2015 03:57 PM
Edited by Dies_Irae at 16:00, 13 Aug 2015.

I wouldn't be surprised if 'they' are never going to do such an Open Dev ever again. They wanted the fans, and were at the front of a whole load of hate mixed with love ever since. I try to imagine just how they must feel...all their work being hated upon over and over again. And yet they keep the blog open and running, which imo is praiseworthy.

They could just close the whole thing and leave us to ourselves, and release the game when they want to. If the entire development had been done this way, Necropolis would have no reworked units, there would be no Random Skill system, to name a few things. So fan demands have sometimes been heard and expectations fulfilled, but only to some extent. There has been a demand for reworking the Skillwheel etc, and I wonder: if they had cut out all the funny animations (which serve little purpose other than being...funny, and if you don't go afk you won't see them anyway), what else could they have done in their place? They said that reworking a unit from scratch (like the Vamp) goes at the cost of something else. Well, creating a funny animation for each unit is also a process (what if they came up with 4 different ideas per unit, for instance). A process that could have been stopped to benefit other parts.

Maybe they should have put that to the vote as well: do you want funny animations, and if not: what can we do instead?

Sleeping_Sun said:
If anyone missed the article here it is:


I remember Marzin saying that this article is full of wrong statements and such, and not to be taken seriously.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted August 13, 2015 04:03 PM
Edited by verriker at 16:06, 13 Aug 2015.

Dies_Irae said:
I remember Marzin saying that this article is full of wrong statements and such, and not to be taken seriously.


can you cite the source of that, because it is full of Erwin quotes and clearly approved for publication, they can avoid approving it if they disagree with it lol

don't really care about Marzhin's opinion on how to take it anyway because Erwin is the one speaking to the journalist, not him lol
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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted August 13, 2015 04:04 PM

Didn't we get new models of the harpy and crusher- which were both in h6 and looked fine (besides the Christmas colors) yet we don't get a new black dragon. It's decisions like these that make me question UBI every step of the way...

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Dies_Irae
Dies_Irae


Supreme Hero
Official spokesbirb
posted August 13, 2015 04:06 PM

verriker said:
Dies_Irae said:
I remember Marzin saying that this article is full of wrong statements and such, and not to be taken seriously.


can you cite the source of that, because it is full of Erwin quotes and clearly approved for publication, don't approve it if they disagree with it lol

don't really care about Marzhin's opinion anyway because Erwin is the one speaking to the journalist, not him lol


Either him or Nox, and in an article that appeared some time ago...that is going to require a lot of digging, because I do not know where exactly he wrote his opinion on it.
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted August 13, 2015 04:07 PM

Dies_Irae said:
I wouldn't be surprised if 'they' are never going to do such an Open Dev ever again. They wanted the fans, and were at the front of a whole load of hate mixed with love ever since. I try to imagine just how they must feel...all their work being hated upon over and over again. And yet they keep the blog open and running, which imo is praiseworthy.

They could just close the whole thing and leave us to ourselves, and release the game when they want to. If the entire development had been done this way, Necropolis would have no reworked units, there would be no Random Skill system, to name a few things. So fan demands have sometimes been heard and expectations fulfilled, but only to some extent. There has been a demand for reworking the Skillwheel etc, and I wonder: if they had cut out all the funny animations (which serve little purpose other than being...funny, and if you don't go afk you won't see them anyway), what else could they have done in their place? They said that reworking a unit from scratch (like the Vamp) goes at the cost of something else. Well, creating a funny animation for each unit is also a process (what if they came up with 4 different ideas per unit, for instance). A process that could have been stopped to benefit other parts.

Maybe they should have put that to the vote as well: do you want funny animations, and if not: what can we do instead?

Sleeping_Sun said:
If anyone missed the article here it is:


I remember Marzin saying that this article is full of wrong statements and such, and not to be taken seriously.


Those funny animations could only exist if the rest of the game is polished, rather than throwing away at money for that "candy". It was never necessary to have them in the first place. What am I supposed to do if a cabir starts dancing?

About the open dev, it is likely what you speak. Even if they did well for the majority, it will still contain bickering, since people have their own vision of how some things could work. And to think that NWC scrapped an entire faction due to negativity and death threats. What would Ubi do then, hm?

As for the article, if they did claim so, why didn't they do anything to delete the article? Even contacting the Steam admins would work.

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sandro400
sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted August 13, 2015 04:07 PM
Edited by sandro400 at 16:11, 13 Aug 2015.

verriker said:
you forget though that Team Erwin cannot do that, don't forget the article of Julian Benson, Erwin's vision for the game as a creator is widely considered bad and incompetent, he and the team did precisely what you suggest with Heroes 6 already and there was massive hate and fraction then too because it sucked lol


Cannot do what? Do a game and throw it on market? Oh no, they can and already did as you said (H6). Still better than what is happening now IMO.
Thank you for mentioning Erwan. I'm still clueless as to why he became the "core" of all this hatred. Yes, he's the most public face, but... do you really think it was he who designed the skillsystem, who made all of those bugs in H6 (and upcoming H7) and who decided to recycle models?.. Yes, he's in charge for Ashan (which some dislike), but aside from 7 schools of magic and some logical restrictions (Undead cannot be healed, Demons can't shine at Light magic etc) I don't see how his lore influences gameplay. The fact that everything has lore explanation is another matter.
And who is this Julian Benson, is he the infamous BH worker?..
---------------------
P.S.: agree about funny animations btw. Why do we need them? Or no, do we need them at all?
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