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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Skillwheels: an overview
Thread: Skillwheels: an overview This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT»
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 07, 2015 03:34 PM bonus applied by alcibiades on 07 Sep 2015.
Edited by Maurice at 10:43, 21 Sep 2015.

Skillwheels: an overview

Now that they've released most of the Skillwheels, it's possible to gloss over them and make comparisons and aggregate data across factions. To that end, I've gone over the various Skillwheels and added up some numbers. Aggregating the data this way may more easily indicate shortcomings or provide otherwise relatively obscured considerations, allowing people to more easily compare the appearance of skills within factions and also factions against other factions.

Much indebted to Stevie for getting me the data on Sylvan and Dungeon, since I don't have access to the game right now and the beta is due to close today. It only cost me my soul ... anyone have a spare one that I can use?

Anyway, I've captured the info in screenshots, as I can't easily format the data tables otherwise. A few disclaimers:
- I've taken the data of 4 factions from the website (to be precise Haven, Academy, Necropolis and Stronghold);
- Data from the other 2 was obtained this morning from the beta;
- Two Hero classes are incomplete: the Archon of Necropolis (skillwheel is "coming soon" according to the website) and the Mystic of Sylvan, as Tieru doesn't appear to be ingame at the moment and he's the only Mystic Hero among the Sylvan Heroes. Because these two Hero Classes are incomplete, the aggregation for the two corresponding factions is also incomplete - keep that in mind when interpreting the data below.

An overview of all skills across all factions and the total number of occurences among Hero Classes within each faction (left is across all Heroes of the faction, the middle and right are across Might Heroes and Magic Heroes respectively):


Looking explicitely at the Grand Master skills, we can omit the Faction skills since they appear for all Heroes of the faction. Notice the distribution in Necropolis (almost all skills appear twice) as well as the triple appearance of some skills among a few of the factions:


Since the faction skill doesn't appear below Grand Master skills, there is more room among the Master skills for variety. Yet, Stronghold has Leadership as Master skill for 5 of its 6 Classes. Slightly less is Leadership for Haven, which appears for 4 of the 6 Classes.


Finally, the skills that top at Expert tier.


Now, it's also interesting to examine the skill distribution across the available classes - and moreover, to see which skills are missing from each of the factions across all the Heroes that belong to it.



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As can be seen, all factions except one are missing at least two Magic Schools that simply don't appear at least once among the Heroes of that faction. The only exception is (logically) Academy, which has access to all Magic Schools.

Now, a while ago there was some discussion about having "forbidden" Magic Schools, whose spells also wouldn't appear in the Mage Guild. It pretty much seems that a foundation for that is already there, as it's quite useless to get a high Tier spell in the Mage Guild of a faction that has no Heroes who can reach that tier with the Magic School skills available for the factions' own Heroes! Especially Stronghold is in a tight spot here, with 4 Magic Schools completely missing from its Heroes and one of the remaining 3 Schools is stuck at Expert level.

This distribution of Magic School skills among Heroes of a given faction actually reduces the value of random spells in the Mage Guild as you can easily get spells of a School for which you have no native Hero - and the only way to make them useful is to hire a foreigner into your kingdom. To me, not incorporating Spell Distribution sounds like a design flaw when designing the Skillwheel system.

Magic skills are also the only skills that are missing, other than specifically Leadership from Necropolis. It seems only logical that they don't have it, though. Economy is missing from Sylvan, but I suspect that the Mystic will have that skill at Master or Expert tier.

Someone named Shukfir from the Russian Heroes community has also made a chart, which was linked to by 3LiON on page 3 of this thread. I've included that chart here for reference:


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Edit 1: As an aside, I will try and update the info as more comes available or gets updated on the H7 site.

Edit 2: Updated the first four tables to also include a total column, totalling the appearance for each skill, as well as a split between Might Heroes and Magic Heroes. To accomodate for the extra tables, I've abbreviated the faction names - they should be self-explanatory.

Edit 3: Updated the Sylvan and Necropolis charts with the Archon and Mystic class. As a result, also updated the overall Skills chart and the chart for the Master and Expert skills. Also added the chart made by Shukfir.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 07, 2015 03:46 PM
Edited by Stevie at 15:46, 07 Sep 2015.

QP warranted for soul sacrifice
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 07, 2015 04:19 PM

Thank you for a very nice and handy overview. If possibly, it would be interesting to have a "totals" column on the right end of the table that shows how many times each skill occurs across all the factions - for instance, the fact that both Prime Magic and Warfare currently has an occurance in 26/36 hero classes is a bit agonizing (albeit not at master level always, obviously).
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 07, 2015 04:24 PM

Thanks, Alci.

I am also pondering just making a split between Might Heroes and Magic Heroes even though I said I didn't. I'll be making a few updates a bit later; the data simply calls for a few more aggregation steps .

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 07, 2015 04:35 PM
Edited by Steyn at 16:38, 07 Sep 2015.

That's a very nice analysis Maurice

I am amazed necropolis does not have any earth magic (yet). Hopefully the archon class will be adept in earth magic, though from their description they will probably get prime, dark and fire.

Also weird is sylvan completely lacking light magic. Maybe the mystic class will have light affinity... One thing is for sure: light magic is severely under-represented, while earth magic has lots and lots of practitioners.


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Hunters11
Hunters11

Tavern Dweller
posted September 08, 2015 02:43 AM

It's wrong.

Sylvan Ranger GM

Nature's revenge
Explorer
Destiny(o)

Warfare(x) change.

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 08, 2015 06:51 AM

good job gathering this data.

Steyn said:

I am amazed necropolis does not have any earth magic (yet). Hopefully the archon class will be adept in earth magic, though from their description they will probably get prime, dark and fire.



can be wrong, but I got a feeling that what we have right now as embalmer is actually the archon, since GM in economy/explorer usually go to the neutral hero.

Steyn said:

Also weird is sylvan completely lacking light magic. Maybe the mystic class will have light affinity... One thing is for sure: light magic is severely under-represented, while earth magic has lots and lots of practitioners.



Also found it a bit weird, I wonder if it is for balance reasons. If not, maybe haven confessor could get some water magic and a sylvan hero could get some light, that would follow the rule of 2 missing magic schools for non-stronghold.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 08, 2015 09:29 AM

Hunters11 said:
Sylvan Ranger GM

Nature's revenge
Explorer
Destiny(o)

Warfare(x) change.


Well, the screenshot on which I based that table was taken from the beta yesterday morning. It shows Nature's Revenge on top as GM skill, with Warfare and Explorer as additional GM skills on respectively the left side and right side of the skillwheel.

At the bottom of the wheel, from left to right, are the skills Paragon, Destiny and Warcries; those are the Master skills.

Where did you get your info to say that the table shown is wrong?

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2015 09:54 AM

In the main site they clarified that the ranger will have destiny as  grandmaster alongside exploration,but in game indeed we have warfare instead of destiny. Someone there forgot to change in the beta
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 08, 2015 10:08 AM

ChrisD1 said:
In the main site they clarified that the ranger will have destiny as  grandmaster alongside exploration,but in game indeed we have warfare instead of destiny. Someone there forgot to change in the beta


Figures. I assume that there will be more ... inconsistencies between the data on the website and the ingame content .

I've updated the masterpost to show a split between Might Heroes and Magic Heroes, as well as a total column for each of those tables.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2015 10:26 AM

Dont forget that we might get a dlc with a faction in the future,so some abilities that now seem to appear less, might make a come back with that faction. Except if we are talking about light magic
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 08, 2015 10:49 AM

Indeed, Fire Magic seems like a very likely candidate to show up with expansion factions (Inferno, Dwarves). On the other hand, the no-show of Light Magic is rather odd, although I guess we'll see at least one Sylvan hero with Light, as well as potentially some Dwarven heroes? Offense seems a bit underrepresented also, which is curious.
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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted September 08, 2015 12:38 PM

alcibiades said:
Indeed, Fire Magic seems like a very likely candidate to show up with expansion factions (Inferno, Dwarves). On the other hand, the no-show of Light Magic is rather odd, although I guess we'll see at least one Sylvan hero with Light, as well as potentially some Dwarven heroes? Offense seems a bit underrepresented also, which is curious.

In terms of Magic, the best we have is Might & Magic X. Druids in it have Grandmaster Water, Prime and Earth Magic and Master Air and Light magic, while Rune Priests have Grandmaster Earth, Light and Fire Magic and Master Prime and Air Magic. This may provide some intel into how will look Magic schools' distribution in Dwarven heroes.

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articun
articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted September 08, 2015 12:50 PM
Edited by articun at 12:51, 08 Sep 2015.

Honestly, one elf magic hero should be able to grandmaster at Light magic and the other with Water magic...

At least some Sylvan Magic hero should have been able to grandmaster one other school alongside Earth...
And the overall lack of light magic from sylvan is a bit weird

EDIT: And it is as i fear, many heroes are similar to their grandmaster cababilities, making the classes, quite similar..

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 08, 2015 12:58 PM

ChrisD1 said:
Dont forget that we might get a dlc with a faction in the future,so some abilities that now seem to appear less, might make a come back with that faction. Except if we are talking about light magic

Just like Academy in H6, right?

Don't spread lies. There won't be any DLC with a faction in it, Factions will only come with expansions, as they always do.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 08, 2015 12:59 PM

Keep in mind that there is no reason whatsoever, NOT to hire heroes of a different faction, since this comes only with a slight morale penalty, even though there are obvious magic implications to onsider (for example, it doesn't make a lot of sense for a Haven player to hire Dark Elven heroes and Necro heroes are also not too great, while Haven heroes are uncool in Dungeon)...

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articun
articun


Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
posted September 08, 2015 01:03 PM

Storm-Giant said:
ChrisD1 said:
Dont forget that we might get a dlc with a faction in the future,so some abilities that now seem to appear less, might make a come back with that faction. Except if we are talking about light magic

Just like Academy in H6, right?

Don't spread lies. There won't be any DLC with a faction in it, Factions will only come with expansions, as they always do.


Although, if a DLC does come out, it could add some more Inferno units to the neutral pool, thus making it much easier for the Inferno to come back in an Expansion. If developers do indeed go down that path though and introduce more Inferno units this way (right now we have 2 confirmed maybe a third one but it is not certain yet), i would expect two Factions in an expansion and not one.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 08, 2015 01:09 PM

JollyJoker said:
Keep in mind that there is no reason whatsoever, NOT to hire heroes of a different faction...


The biggest hurdle is actually the faction specific skill. You don't have to take it, I know, but it's a skill that's so powerful, you'd be stupid not to take it - yet, it only works with the faction's own creatures.

Besides, why would I hire "foreigners" to make most use of - for instance - the spells provided in the Mage Guilds of my faction?

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2015 01:18 PM

Storm-Giant said:

Just like Academy in H6, right?

Don't spread lies. There won't be any DLC with a faction in it, Factions will only come with expansions, as they always do.

can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not
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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted September 08, 2015 01:42 PM

Maurice said:
JollyJoker said:
Keep in mind that there is no reason whatsoever, NOT to hire heroes of a different faction...


The biggest hurdle is actually the faction specific skill. You don't have to take it, I know, but it's a skill that's so powerful, you'd be stupid not to take it - yet, it only works with the faction's own creatures.

Besides, why would I hire "foreigners" to make most use of - for instance - the spells provided in the Mage Guilds of my faction?

The faction specific skills work with all creatures.  Mixing and matching heroes and factions is encouraged heavily.

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