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| Thread: Skillwheels: an overview |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV |
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 25, 2015 02:22 PM |
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Edited by Natalka at 14:26, 25 Sep 2015.
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I understand the foundation of my thoughts is based on multiplayer experience but I stand for my words. I am not forcing you to think the same just sharing that I really think this system works for multi.
The game forcing me to explore each class in a multiplayer game is giving me a blast. To find interesting possibilities with those limited skills to find unused perks that`s marvelous to me. I am sure if there were no restrictions then some perks would never be used while now they will be viable.
Me and my partner have a deal already first game is full random - choosing heroes ended in beta. No more training wheels it`s time to engage in full creativity game with whatever crap hero the game chooses for us.
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 08:07 PM |
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Edited by keldaur at 20:07, 25 Sep 2015.
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I have a question for the crowd that thinks that restrictions kills variety.
How did you feel about HH6 skill system ? Was it good for variety ? Was it too restrictive?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 25, 2015 09:03 PM |
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keldaur said:
How did you feel about HH6 skill system ? Was it good for variety ? Was it too restrictive?
What variety? The only ones in place were between Might and Magic. Faction-wise, only a few Magic skills were rotated among them (Earth was present for all, though, if I am not mistaken).
Might-skill wise, my Heroes had no variation at all, since it would be stupid to go for "lesser" skills.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 25, 2015 10:13 PM |
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I think same will happen here with might classes if there were no restrictions.
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 26, 2015 04:41 AM |
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Edited by keldaur at 04:42, 26 Sep 2015.
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Might had 5 schools.
Magic had 5-6 schools.
Each school between 5 and 8 abilities. Except prime, which had 15. We are talking about 100 abilities per class. If you remove passives, there were plenty flavorful spells/abilities.
Variety did exist. The problem weren't the skills. It was the total freedom to choose whatever you wanted which in the end, it means you will follow the same path over and over.
Freedom = Less variety as to compete you need to follow the shortest path.
The moment you are playing Heroes 5 and you level up, the random skill generator is restricting you to X number of skills/abilities which you can choose at a given level. It is a restriction. Yet you (and by you i don't mean you Maurice, i am speaking generally) understand that it means "more variety" because it also allows you to take explore different paths depending on what you are getting.
The variety is in the restrictions and the random elements. If you can follow always a path withouth alterations you will choose the shortest path avaible, and you can have all variety in the world but that won't mean anything if you are completely free to choose what to pick.
Many builds on H5 follow the same logic, ie Haven heroes you always try to pick up the same abilities anyways with some notable exceptions, you do not really go on with the flow that much.
The HH7 class system, if played with random Heroes is basically adding another layer of randomness. Not only the hero (might/magic), the spec (which are crappy tho) and starting skills, but also avaible skills trees.
Is it a restriction ? Yeah, so what?
TLDR - Restrictions aren't neccessarily bad, and it doesn't mean less variety. It needs to be done well.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 26, 2015 10:22 AM |
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I did play h6 system with restrictions... On hotseat anyway. If you win, others can ban 1 skill&dynasty for each victory, loss reduces 1 penalty point. It still didn't create any variety to the system, it was just to balance out the games between players for us(player skill gap). It didn't help the flat out boring system, I don't see how it helps this version either. To me this is just same thing, only my "penalty"-points are pre-set in different ways to create classes being less harmful.
And even in general what variety does it really bring if 80-90% of heroes are rubbish I never wanna play with having seen their skills + specializations? It's the same thing as having banned some of the good skills in h6 and for rest you still go for the other optimal skills. I mean I could just lose to play picking bad hero knowing enemy will have good one, but I just don't find any enjoyment out of that. I don't see all heroes/classes equal, some have big edge over the others. That's the big difference from h5 where I consider most heroes good/viable and few bad ones. In h7 it's few good/viable ones and lots of bad ones. I'm sorry, but to me it's crazy that somebody considers this (or h6) as good skill-systems. They feel the most boring systems in the entire series focusing on pre-made optimization models where you know since before the match starts as to how you will build your hero.
The skill-system itself doesn't have much to celebrate as it lacks unique abilities, has ton of overlapping skills/abilities, no pre-requisites, doesn't require any real thinking for pros/cons since you can take as many abilities you want per skill. In the end it's just h6 system cut apart and put in the shape of a wheel(or to be precise I liked h6 system more and it sucked ).
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 26, 2015 11:14 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 11:17, 26 Sep 2015.
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@TD , please elaborate which heroes you consider are crap based on their skills.
In heroes 5 we had tons of good heroes with crap starting skills:
Galib, Havez(ye why the hell warmachines)
Eruina, Kythra
Irina
Grawl, Jezebeth (why sorcery...)
Raven (such a wasted potential for his special)
Talanar
Erling
Kilghan
They have good specialties but either their starting skill is useless(sorcery) or is good but there are more viable options so at the end of the game you have a good hero with screwed skilling.
Those heroes I have never seen as main hero which is sad because they had potential. Except for Havez which was too good despite the crappy skill but for the others when you do the math it is better to have worse specialization and better headroom for skilling.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 26, 2015 01:22 PM |
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Edited by TD at 13:23, 26 Sep 2015.
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@Natalka, but that's a trade-off you get for some of those specialization in h5. For example Galib I consider one the best heroes in the entire game despite his starting skill makes it impossible to get ulti + retribution for example. The specialization is just that good.
As for h7 for example academy sub-par
alchemists
blademages
Sheriff/enchanter is borderline depending if diplomacy is still so powerful at release(and depending on map-size).
Basically what I'm left with is
Wizard
Battlemages
And then there is specializations on top of that to cross some heroes out. In the beta I played hotseat by myself with 4 academy factions. Minasli wiped them all out alone, pure magic. Essentially I had magic + luck vs magic + diplomacy + defence vs magic + warfare vs warfare + offense + leadership + warcry. Leads me to question why would I play with heroes other than Minasli when she was so much better than the rest. Despite diplomacy gave some armies huge boosts the stacks just never got high enough to survive the insane magic(I don't even understand why they made it so strong, it freaking kills at least 40-70 elites per stack with tsunami for example!). Of course if I had waited few more months she would get beaten as there is limit how much her power can grow(though she could go back and get more troops on the other hand), but not like I would wait around just other players in certain spot on normal game. In fact for normal game she would advanced faster than others, but just for testing purposes I brought all 4 heroes to meet in the middle despite some being slower.
And speaking of crappy specializations, notice how that's the norm in h7? Most heroes who specialize in something like water magic for Minasli are the heroes who can't even reach the ultimate of their specialty. Many are actually even stuck on expert level which is idiotic at best. And as for diversity how is that present when might heroes have to go diplomacy or warfare to creep on harder difficulties? And magic of course spams 2-4 spells for the entire game. Basically I don't even know why heroes have armies, they are such a side-show in h7 compared to heroes themselves. Battles are all about building your hero right rather than winning with tactics.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2015 01:40 PM |
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TD said:
@Natalka, but that's a trade-off you get for some of those specialization in h5. For example Galib I consider one the best heroes in the entire game despite his starting skill makes it impossible to get ulti + retribution for example. The specialization is just that good.
Only when playing vs AI or newbies 
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 26, 2015 02:08 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 14:37, 26 Sep 2015.
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Galib is only useful vs puppet master/frenzy. Smart opponent will never use implosion on you, summoning and light magic have no effect also.
Out of all those classes I find only Alchemist to be bad. Just because Minasli is too strong (like Havez in H5) it doesn`t mean all other heroes will be crap. If you play with choosing hero go ahead and play her every day if you have fun. They said they will nerf spells yesterday.
Enchanter GM prime and GM water also can have up to M Defense. Very strong class imo and the only class to combo prime and water. If they gave this to Minasli you will never ever try other heroes in Academy.
Blademage GM prime and up to M offense. Bear in mind that all academy might heroes are somewhat gimped because Academy is magic faction by nature. I picture it this way you have a might hero who gets 2 buffs per turn for his army - not bad. Ye you don`t get GM offense but this is Academy. Mass Time Control+ Mass Fortune or Teleport or Elementals. All those spells have usage with low magic. Elementals are useful for blocking. Tell me which might hero can cast two buffs per turn. Also just tested it you can use warcry on the second turn. So this class is very viable imo.
Sheriff GM light magic up to M defense. I don`t see why this is bad. Also if they change creature spec. this hero is mater of Cabirs but for now let`s ignore this. I think GM light is good and Sheriff is the only might class that can have it. It sounds very good to buff a might class` creatures, definitely worth to experiment.
this only leaves Alchemist out. For now it sounds like secondary hero material. I wrote elsewhere that neutral might class is strange to me and only viable is Yeshtar (dungeon with GM warfare + GM explorer). Give me other faction so I can tinker more 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 02, 2015 09:04 PM |
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I've been going over the various Hero classes ingame to see how they match up with the images in the opening post. Below are the changes:
Academy:
Wizard, Expert Tier: Fire Magic -> Air Magic
Necropolis:
Kaspar: Embalmer (Magic) -> Death Knight (Might)
Luna: Archon (Magic) -> Embalmer (Magic)
Lyla: Necromancer (Magic) -> Archon (Magic)
Moander: Death Knight (Might) -> Necromancer (Magic)
Zakera: Embalmer (Magic) -> Bone Guard (Might)
Note that two Heroes shifted from Magic to Might, while only one shifted from Might to Magic. Hence, Necropolis has 6 Might Heroes now, 2 for each of the 3 Might Classes, and only 4 Magic Heroes, with 2 in the Necromancer class.
Sylvan:
Lasir: Ranger (Might) -> Starsinger (Magic)
Note that this is the opposite of Necropolis, in Might vs. Magic balance. Sylvan has 4 Might Heroes and 6 Magic Heroes, with Starsinger being populated by 3 Heroes.
All of the above information was obtained from the pre-game Hero selection screens in the Single Player maps.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted October 02, 2015 09:12 PM |
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Sylvan relic is +to earth spells. 'Sylvan' means its theme it is not faction specific. Maybe sylvan is more magic faction here.
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