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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Heroes 7 - Ideas for the future
Thread: Heroes 7 - Ideas for the future This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 24, 2015 12:14 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 04 Oct 2015.
Edited by Stevie at 21:53, 27 Sep 2015.

Heroes 7 - Ideas for the future

(thread dedicated for exploring all kinds of ideas that you think would benefit the Heroes series)


With the current state of the game on our minds, me and Maurice (what a guy) had a conversation on a couple of areas of the game which we believe are lacking, and I think we nailed down some really interesting and fun mechanics that could help improve gameplay. These would be changes at more levels than one, so it's advisable to look at things from a higher perspective rather than separately. Of course I hope the devs have eyes to see and ears to listen, because good ideas are all around on this board lying in wait to be implemented. And who knows, maybe we'll get an expansion as groundbreaking as TotE was for Heroes 5, or at the very least a basis to be considered for Heroes 8.


(*) Introducing attack sources: physical (Might), magical (all 7 elements, Prime being high level) and composite (specific percentage combination of 2 or more sources - physical / magical or magical (fire) / magical (earth), etc.).

(*) Attack improves physical damage. Defense improves physical resistance. Spellpower improves the power of spells and also increase magic penetration  by 1% per point. Knowledge improves mana pool, mana regeneration, and also base magic resistance by 1% per point.

(*) Heroes and creatures have a resistance attribute (similar to luck and morale) which has a starting base value (general resistance for all schools) and a specific value (separately for each school). Spells and magical attacks have a magical penetration value which is practically the opposite of resistance. Prime magic is an exception, being both irresistible and non-penetrating, the high level elemental source.

(*) Resistance and penetration are easy to calculate when it comes to adding / subtracting damage of attacks, destructive spells and maybe heals, but a bit harder for curses. I generally agree with a reduction in duration (ATB, I miss you so much) as well as power whenever possible (we're not talking about binary spells like Blind or Puppet Master where duration is all you can reduce). Blessings and summons should be exempt for obvious reasons. In the end a bit complicated but possible nonetheless.

(*) Each of the magic schools (except Prime for aforementioned reasons) give 10% magic penetration for the spells of that school for each mastery level, that in addition to the increased magic power of spells and elemental damage.

(*) Since it would be absurd to have so many resistance skills as counterparts, one resistance skill giving a 5% base resistance bonus per mastery should suffice. In addition to that, selecting any (and all) of the novice abilities would open a selection panel so you could further increase resistance towards a specific element by 15% (except for Prime, I won't repeat this anymore so just assume it). This is to somewhat circumvent the restrictions of the skillpizza as compacting so many elements in a working way and in such limited space is otherwise impossible.


This is not something entirely novel. Attack sources are around as a mechanic for quite a while, and unlike Heroes 6 and 7, Disciples and AoW series implemented them successfully. Rock - paper - scissors with a lot of replay and tactical depth, but not in a definitive sense as possibilities to overcome unfavorable odds still exist. In this direction, alternative creatures and upgrades becomes something with so much more potential for choice and mind games. And I do believe we're just scratching the surface here. Imagine adding spells, abilities, artifacts and other things into the mix. Spellpower and Knowledge primaries also granting resistance and penetration is for the sake of making magic more intriguing and even leveled compared to might, something I find nicely complementary and even necessary.

Thoughts?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted September 24, 2015 12:36 AM
Edited by Pawek_13 at 00:53, 24 Sep 2015.

Stevie said:
(*) Introducing attack sources: physical (Might), magical (all 7 elements, Prime being high level) and composite (specific percentage combination of 2 or more sources - physical / magical or magical (fire) / magical (earth), etc.).

This is all in game, except for combined damage output.

Stevie said:
Knowledge improves mana pool, mana regeneration, and also base magic resistanceby 1% per point.

Knowledge (or Spirit, that's how it's called in Heroes VII, I guess) already increases mana points by 10 for each Spirit point. Also, one Spirit point increases your mana regeneration by 2 points/day.

I'm not so sure on adding these new mechanics, however. Devs need to fix current issues with game, then think about implementing new mechanics. Speaking of them, I'm not so sure about them. As you've pointed out, similar ones were introduced in Heroes VI and in my opinion they overcomplicated the battle system and made magic Blood heroes way too weak. Maybe your tweaks would make that system more digestible but I'd still remain highly sceptical on that matter.

I have an additional question, as I cannot see this problem adressed in your post. How will the damage caused by spells be calculated? Will it remain a standard way (linear progression) with additional effect of magical penetration, or will spells have a constant value of damage that can only be tweaked by magical penetration?

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 24, 2015 12:58 AM
Edited by Stevie at 01:19, 24 Sep 2015.

The total power of a spell is determined by mastery level and spellpower and the result is then enhanced by the penetration percentage (or resistance, depending on the case). At least that's one way of doing it, I guess. I'm not that great at math but, a fireball would be like,
[base damage 100 + (Mastery X 50) + (Spellpower X 10)] X 150% ? I have no idea if that's a good formula.

And I know that we've seen these things before, but they were a total mess in Heroes 6 and Heroes 7 seems way too shy from the issue to be on my liking. There's a lot of potential here.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted September 24, 2015 01:03 AM

Hm. You could've also mentioned to change the Exploration skill, so instead of giving +X to movement, it could've been stated bonus to scouting radius. However, the movement bonus would be covered by a new primary skill, alongside attack/defense/spell power/knowledge, calling it Speed.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 24, 2015 09:03 AM
Edited by kiryu133 at 09:17, 24 Sep 2015.

I want an official, erotic adventure story as a scenario
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted September 24, 2015 10:21 AM
Edited by Pawek_13 at 10:27, 24 Sep 2015.

kiryu133 said:
I want an official, erotic adventure story as a scenario

Riiiight...

I have no idea where to put it, so I think this is the best place to do it. At the moment, Defense and Attack skill give one point of Defense and Attack respectively. However, Attack skill also offers some bonuses specifically for shooters. This means that while calculating damage, shooters not only benefit from Hero's Attack, but also from these shooters-only abilities. These makes them even more OP. In order to fix that, Attack and Defense would only offer a percentage bonus to melee attacks and defense from melee respectively. This way shooters won't get double bonus to damage.

@Stevie:
In all Heroes games, standard model of calculating spell damage looks like this: d = a + b*s, where d is spell damage, s - spellpower and a and b are some preset numbers determined by level of mastery in particular School of Magic (a, b, d and s are all positive integers.) Values of a and b change to higher ones when improving the level of Mastery in the School of Magic a spell belongs to.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 24, 2015 10:45 AM

I'm sure appropriate calculation formulas can be found, but my main point here is - Do we want to have a system encompasing different attack sources, spell penetration and resistance in the way I envisioned it above? My answer to that would be a yes.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Natalka
Natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted September 24, 2015 10:54 AM
Edited by Natalka at 14:53, 24 Sep 2015.

it sounds too complicated ever to be implemented..

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted September 24, 2015 10:55 AM

What about the spellcaster units, like mages?

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 24, 2015 10:57 AM

Pawek_13 said:

Riiiight...




Oh please, Heroes (NWC) storytelling is ripe for a romantic, if silly, adventure sexcapade. It's a shame it hasn't happened yet...

just imagine, two lovers caught in a war and forced to face each other in war (and then sex). I'd play it
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted September 24, 2015 11:00 AM

kiryu133 said:
Pawek_13 said:

Riiiight...




Oh please, Heroes (NWC) storytelling is ripe for a romantic, if silly, adventure sexcapade. It's a shame it hasn't happened yet...

just imagine, two lovers caught in a war and forced to face each other in war (and then sex). I'd play it

If that were to happen, it may increase that age limit from PEGI to 18, even. Well, considering most of Heroes fans are practically even older than that, then heck, might give it a try.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted September 24, 2015 11:03 AM

EnergyZ said:
What about the spellcaster units, like mages?

In their case, spellpower is equal to number of units in stack.

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted September 24, 2015 11:04 AM

kiryu133 said:
Pawek_13 said:

Riiiight...




Oh please, Heroes (NWC) storytelling is ripe for a romantic, if silly, adventure sexcapade. It's a shame it hasn't happened yet...

just imagine, two lovers caught in a war and forced to face each other in war (and then sex). I'd play it


It's too forced in my opinion, I thought something more vicious and brutal, like a barbarian horde where the troops pillage villages and rape their women.

Let's turn Ashan into Westeros fully, now!
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PLVTOCRATIC AND REACTIONARY DEMOCRACIES OF THE WEST
POTERE, LO SFORZO, LA PASTA

0.05% Chance of being Cyrus the Great's descendant

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 24, 2015 11:08 AM

Noooo!

It needs to be super cheesy romance story...
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 24, 2015 11:08 AM
Edited by Stevie at 11:10, 24 Sep 2015.

Kyriu this is not a thread for lore / Ashan, visuals, etc. This is a thread for gameplay mechanics. I would appreciate it if you didn't derail it.

EnergyZ said:
What about the spellcaster units, like mages?


I'm not quite sure what you mean about that, but spellcaster units would be like those in Heroes 5, with a spellbook. Magical creatures and magic users would have a magic source as part of their attack, so a mage would do magic damage.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 24, 2015 11:27 AM
Edited by Maurice at 11:29, 24 Sep 2015.

The opening post by Stevie is a continuation of the discussion we had which led me to my post in the Magic Resistance thread.

At the very core, the concept is to make Magic more prevalent in Might & Magic: Heroes and not only directly through Spells.

By providing non-Might damage to creatures, in the form of composite damage sources (as Stevie indicated above, a unit could do Might + Fire + Light damage, for instance), you can introduce a concept of Magic resistances that each focus against a specific Magic School as well as a generic Resistance skill which boosts all of them.

When you then combine those aspects, you can actually make creatures stronger due to the Magic Hero that's backing them, just like Might Heroes already do.

Let's assume an example:
A Fire Elemental does part Might damage (the Fireball it slings is a physical object with physical impact, after all) and part Fire damage (as a Fireball is on fire, by definition ...). When the Fire Elemental attacks, the Might damage is held against the Defense skill of its target, while the Fire damage is held against the Fire Resistance of the unit. Ignoring the Might component for the time being, we can discuss the variety of the Fire damage component: If the Fireball deals 100 Fire damage and the unit has 40% Fire Resistance, it will only suffer 60 Fire damage effectively.

Now, introduce two Heroes: a Might Hero and a Magic Hero. The Might Hero has Expert Fire Magic and 10 Spell Power. Effective Fire Penetration is therefore 30% (2x 10% for the Mastery Level and 10% from Spell Power). The Magic Hero has Master Fire Magic and 20 Spell Power, so that one has an effective Fire Penetration of 50% (3x 10% for the Master Level and 20% from Spell Power).

When each of them commands the above mentioned Fire Elemental against the equally above mentioned unit with 40% Fire Resistance, the Fire Elemental will end up doing more Fire damage. Against the Might Hero, the Fire Resistance is effectively only 10%, so the target suffers only 90 damage. With the Magic Hero, however, the penetration drops the Magic Resistance to -10%, so the target of the Fire Elementals' Fireball suffers 110 Fire damage. But since the Might Hero highly likely has a higher attack score, the Might damage component of the Fireball will be somewhat higher than for the Magic Hero.

Same unit, but damage output (and type!) differs based on commanding Hero. Against a Might Hero commanding the Fire Elemental, you'd have more use of Defense to lower the Might component, while against the Magic Hero, you'd better stack up your Fire Resistance.

Another example: the Chaplain. It has the Abbott as upgrade. With the concept of adding elemental damage, the Chaplain could be designed to deal (most of) its damage as partial Light damage and partial Fire damage. The Abbott upgrade would see a shift towards Light damage, both in absolute value as well as relative to the Fire damage component. This leaves room for an alternative upgrade: the Zealot. That unit focusses more towards Fire magic damage ("burn, you heretic!").

It's fairly logical to assume that Inferno creatures would be resistant to Fire damage, while being vulnerable to Light. As a Haven player, facing off against Inferno, the likely Chaplain upgrade is therefore the Abbott. But if you're playing against Haven, the better choice is the Zealot, as Haven units will likely have a somewhat higher Light resistance than other factions. So, what choice to make when you're facing both Inferno and another Haven player? Or better, if your commanding Hero has Master Light Magic while facing an Inferno player?

The choice of upgrade therefore becomes a strategic choice, one that is meaningful against the circumstances of the given map, both in the form of available Heroes on your side as well as what the opponents are doing; do they have Might Heroes or Magic Heroes commanding their main armies? What may be a logical choice in one map may be relatively useless in another.

Then pile artifact effects and temporary boosts on top of it, that can all enhance unit damage or resistance for particular elements (all cumulative with the boosts provided by the commanding Heroes), and you have quite a strong case of rock-paper-scissors that can make gameplay interesting and add variety.

Because no creature becomes completely useless when facing off against enemies that are (highly) resistant against one type of damage, the "no brain choices" are less apparent and for casual players, the differences aren't as punishing when they're making a wrong choice. However, at the higher end of the competitive (multiplayer) spectrum, a wrong choice can mean the difference between ultimate victory or defeat. While the proposed system may not be easy to grasp right away, it is still relatively simple in design and adds strategical depth.

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kiryu133
kiryu133


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
posted September 24, 2015 12:03 PM

Stevie said:
Kyriu this is not a thread for lore / Ashan, visuals, etc. This is a thread for gameplay mechanics. I would appreciate it if you didn't derail it.



Sorry, I thought this was anything you'd like to see (and cheesy, erotic romance is still at the top!)

I do not want any magic damage improved by magic heroes. I stay with the opinion that magic heroes impact the battlefield directly through spells and might heroes impact it indirectly through improved minions. That should be the basis be-all-end-all and warcries is going to far toward might heroes casting spells.

resistance and penetration (eh hehehe) attributes is not too bad though and neither is elemental damage improved through elemental skills (but not spellpower. damage dealt should still be based on attack/damage). A general overhaul to the entire magic system is certainly needed. Not sure how much though and to what end other than making it worthwhile to invest in over might.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted September 24, 2015 12:40 PM

kiryu133 said:

[...] resistance and penetration (eh hehehe) [...]

A tiny bit of has just died inside...

Besides, I agree with Kiryu - a clear separation of Might and Magic Heroes, where Might ones focus on passive support of troops, while Magic ones do it in a more active way by casting spells and dealing direct damage to the opposite side of conflict.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted September 24, 2015 12:52 PM

One of the main issues with Magic Heroes casting spells is that they don't scale as well as Might Heroes do. In most Heroes games, Might Heroes overshadowed Magic Heroes. And to be honest, the passiveness or activeness of either Hero class has little to do with this imbalance to begin with.

The proposed system hopes to remedy this imbalance as well as provide strategical depth.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted September 24, 2015 01:13 PM

Stevie said:
Kyriu this is not a thread for lore / Ashan, visuals, etc. This is a thread for gameplay mechanics. I would appreciate it if you didn't derail it.

EnergyZ said:
What about the spellcaster units, like mages?


I'm not quite sure what you mean about that, but spellcaster units would be like those in Heroes 5, with a spellbook. Magical creatures and magic users would have a magic source as part of their attack, so a mage would do magic damage.


Er, meant the fact how would they have magic penetration.

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