|
| Thread: Natural? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted January 13, 2016 01:42 PM |
|
|
Galaad said:
What I think is that if a girl won't date you for the sole reason you're bald you're not missing much. 
Actually, you might be.
Reverse it:
Are you not dating an ugly girl despite her being your friend, with you having a lot of laughter and fun together, same interests, etc? probably not. Because she's ugly. You're actually both missing out on that fact; your brain cannot develop a chemical attraction to her, which is beyond you. If she was prettier, it may have clicked and you may have had a great relationship together.
Now, enter the "frowned" false beauty: what if he got herself a liposuction, enlarged her breasts, thickened her hair, whitened/straightened her teeth, make her hooked nose straight, [enter whatever would make her prettier in your opinion], would that be enough for you to consider her as a partner, not just a friend?
Bottom line: if she "accepts who she is", you can both forget it and it's not your fault.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 02:03 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 14:05, 13 Jan 2016.
|
I don't think you can fairly compare, as us dudes don't have the same criterias of attraction than women. I'm not saying women don't care about the looks, just that is not as important to them as it is for us, how would you explain otherwise so many girls can be fully in love with average looking or even (granted more rarely) ugly looking men, but not the opposite?
As for your question is a tricky one, alternatively should I fall in love or date every girl I find gorgeous because we have lots in common etc and on the other hand can't have any friendship with them?
Quote:
Now, enter the "frowned" false beauty: what if he got herself a liposuction, enlarged her breasts, thickened her hair, whitened/straightened her teeth, make her hooked nose straight, [enter whatever would make her prettier in your opinion], would that be enough for you to consider her as a partner, not just a friend?
For me no, as I never felt attracted to women who got themselves plastic-surgered, and as a friend I would advise her to really consider such decision and think it through before proceeding.
Quote:
Bottom line: if she "accepts who she is", you can both forget it and it's not your fault.
Forget what? Is sex or romance the only alternative for a man/woman relationship?
____________
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 02:04 PM |
|
|
Doomforge said:
fred79 said:
when people tell me that "that is the way things are, you have to deal with it", i wonder how they could be so narrow-minded.
I wouldn't call it narrow-minded, more like realistic.
sorry to continue the off-topic, but when anyone is talking about foundations based on ideas alone(society), then you're speaking strictly theoretical; regardless of whether or not it has been accepted as the "norm". just because something is physically seen and dealt with, doesn't excuse the fact that it is merely a belief held together by thought alone.
for instance, you remove the societal idea of punishment(trial/judging/sentencing/incarceration/retribution) from someone. regardless of what they do, they can morally justify it by whatever means, and flat-out refuse the societal idea that if they do something considered bad by others, they belong in a cage. will that person do whatever they want, if they are willing to die by their belief(based in the severity of this example)? certainly.
people are willing to both kill and die, for beliefs. one society will kill another, and die for theirs, if they believe it strongly enough. they are willing to allow themselves to be enslaved to an idea, if it means their safety(which is essentially what society is). all society is, is a foundation; the basis of which, was an idea(or group of ideas). ideas can change with the weather, if people allow them to. that they do not change, and people in fact helping perpetuate the continual use of the idea, is besides the fact of their power to change it. society is not a concrete thing. it is only an idea(or group of). all it takes, is disbelief or simple refuse, to shatter it. one person or a billion, it's just an idea, and is only as strong as people allow it to be.
if an idea is what you call reality, it is only so because of your belief. remove the belief, and the idea becomes what it actually is: nothing but an idea.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 02:38 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
But that's beside the point of OP who said, he doesn't understand why people diss artificial beauty when natural beauty is just an "I win" ticket someone got at birth, while artificially acquiring the same beauty is "cheating".
I know, and I was trying to explain that for me natural is the ticket no matter what. My great teacher was the wife of a friend of mine.
She was horribly burned in an accident; her face one of the worst areas of her body. She would not do a mask and (I guess) made people deal with it as she had to deal with it. She was right, She was the same wonderful person behind the shocking mask. Although it was far from any ordinary circumstance you would be surprised how fast a person starts seeing the soul inside and not lost in gawking at skin like a 5 year-old.
Now if a child has some sort of issue, like a missing ear or some such, that's much different because now we are talking about the development of a human soul. But for adults? no. I was 5 foot 9 inches, before my dragon hit, and all my time growing up I always heard i.e. "tall, dark and handsome". Well I was likely 1 and 1 and a half on that scale. Ofc as a pup I wanted to be tall, if that's what the ladies wanted but soon I began to realize; if that was THAT important for any reason to a particular girl, than that chick was not for me in any way shape or form. I would hate to think what a 'perfect list' would look like when it comes to the far more important expectations about the...inside.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 02:59 PM |
|
|
fred79 said:
if an idea is what you call reality, it is only so because of your belief. remove the belief, and the idea becomes what it actually is: nothing but an idea.
Reality is what is hardwired in the brain. There are things that are culturally influenced, like i.e. what is perceived the attractive hip width, but the general rules of attraction are simple: you cannot decide what's "beautiful" in a sexual target to you, and if you have a regular sex drive, you will be attracted to what you find beautiful.
Most women find tall men handsome. More attractive than short men. Do you think it's an "idea"? nope. It's an atavism in current societies (men no longer need to be tall and strong to provide care for children), but it's there. Take two extremely similar guys, but one tall and one short and ask 1000 women which is more attractive. Most will say it's the tall one.
@Markkur
If the woman that has been horribly burned had an opportunity to surgically, fully recover her face, would you be against it and why?
If it wasn't feelings that were developed to her in the first place (that survived the accident), would her husband still be interested in her if he met her as an ugly girl?
My point is that he was already in love with her when her face got burned, but would he become interested in her if he met her with a burned face? My guess is no.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 03:56 PM |
|
|
In my opinion, the question whether you would date your ideal partner, except he/she was ugly doesn't exist (and the burn example is an ACCIDENT, where the rules are different), because it's highly unlikely that an ugly person would be an ideal partner: ugly persons have difficult lifes, are made fun of, are not dated and generally feel like crap - they would be very suspicious if they WERE dated by a relatively normal to good-looking kind of guy/gal.
It doesn't matter whether you are against these kinds of surgeries and so on or whether you don't like it - it's something that people have to decide for themselves.
Is this REALLY an issue? I mean, you date a girl; a) her looks suggest nice boobs, but when it comes to close contact, it turns out she wears a pushup and her boobs are not like advertised. Now what? b) her looks suggest nice boobs, and when it comes to close contact, it turns out they ARE nice - however, later you discover a small scar in each of it, and when you ask she tells you, she couldn't really fill B cups and was ashamed of her small boobs, therefore she corrected them a good size up, so that a B cup looks very tight now.
What the hell would be the problem with b)?
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 04:08 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
What the hell would be the problem with b)?
Contact, unless you don't mind touching boobs that dont feel like boobs.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 04:38 PM |
|
|
|
Afaik, they do feel like boobs - except of course, if they are blown up to ridiculous proportions and look (and feel) like a pair of pumped-up balloons, but afaik, that's something for a very special kind of audience anyway.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 04:53 PM |
|
|
Galaad said:
JollyJoker said:
What the hell would be the problem with b)?
Contact, unless you don't mind touching boobs that dont feel like boobs.
They do. Unless it's been some cheap surgery in a local shaman's tent.
@JJ
I agree. Appearance also determines self-confidence, and the group of people we're in. Attractive girls, for instance, are likely to be adored around high school, which often (not always, but often) results in their elevated ego and requirements. Of course one may have elevated ego by default, but looks really do make a difference in our young years, and those in turn affect our mature life.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 07:21 PM |
|
|
Doomforge said:
@Markkur
If the woman that has been horribly burned had an opportunity to surgically, fully recover her face, would you be against it and why?
If it wasn't feelings that were developed to her in the first place (that survived the accident), would her husband still be interested in her if he met her as an ugly girl?
My point is that he was already in love with her when her face got burned, but would he become interested in her if he met her with a burned face? My guess is no.
I'd never treat anyone badly Doom, you should know that. It is not a judgment thing with me it is much deeper...far more the wish. Doom I am just sick of the 'general' preponderance made in this damnit world about the outside of people and little real care and effort about the inside. I truly am ready to leave and it's a good thing because the door is being rather pushed my way.
Again, I WISH people not only did not feel the need to be altered to better meet perfection or that the world was against any such measure. And let me express this another way, if any person weighing such matters were living in difficult circumstance, like being hungry most of the time, would they then be driven by cosmetic change?
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 07:58 PM |
|
|
Doomforge said:
fred79 said:
if an idea is what you call reality, it is only so because of your belief. remove the belief, and the idea becomes what it actually is: nothing but an idea.
Reality is what is hardwired in the brain. There are things that are culturally influenced, like i.e. what is perceived the attractive hip width, but the general rules of attraction are simple: you cannot decide what's "beautiful" in a sexual target to you, and if you have a regular sex drive, you will be attracted to what you find beautiful.
Most women find tall men handsome. More attractive than short men. Do you think it's an "idea"? nope. It's an atavism in current societies (men no longer need to be tall and strong to provide care for children), but it's there. Take two extremely similar guys, but one tall and one short and ask 1000 women which is more attractive. Most will say it's the tall one.
i think you've misunderstood much of what i have stated. i veered off-topic and was discussing the idea of society(which is why i made the disclaimers of "off-topic"). sorry about that; i was very tired(hadn't been to sleep yet).
to address the above(and to be more on-topic): preferences aren't ideas, since they are not something that you create voluntarily(although, a person can be trained to prefer anything, through extensive psychological "programming". but that just veers off-topic again, so i'll quit that).
i'll leave you guys to it, as i've already stated my beliefs on the op. i think, the more i discuss, the more i'll go off-topic. 
|
|
PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 08:26 PM |
|
|
Not far ago I crossed by a text questioning the new wave of "natural" products, or the use of some words in the hope that they feel more natural. "Natural products", "Organic products" ... sometimes they simply don't deviate from anything you can buy at a supermarket, except they have features such as: no gluten, or integral wheat, etc; as if other products, even when not that processed, were not natural as well. The funny thing about this, is the relation if that from the OP first post, because as far as 'non' natural people go, they are the ones that sought these 'natural' products the most.
Sometimes I also cross by the term 'natural' bodybuilding. Accordingly to those who practice it, it's a 'drug free' bodybuilding. However, as the OP states in the first post, bodybuilding would be, by itself, an unnatural process altogether, no matter the way one would play and work (or not) with hormonal levels and food consumption.
But it goes and I agree as some here already stated. The unnatural feeling is a judgement based on human traits. As for some, it's unnatural seeing so many fat people, or seeing super skinny people, or super muscular people, for some others, this and that circumstance will bend one way or another.
For me, who practices bodybuilding, I'm aware of the unnatural feeling of a super muscular body if compared to the average man, as I'm aware of the unnatural feel of a fat body. The difference is that as I train, it's more like a pleasing activity, to break plateaus, all related to my personal feel about the bodybuilding itself. Given that, I'm no competitor. I prompt others who are starting with weightlifting to do so consciously, to perceive their body and learn from it, to focus. That's something I missed back then. For me, it is natural seeing fit people and natural my perception of them, given my reality.
As Markkur said, there's also the perception of what lies beyond the external appearance. Many ordinary-looking people, sometimes, give away an aura of unnatural quality; as some shoddiness in their whole would appear in a sense not seen by the eyes, but perceived in other ways.
So it all comes down to how you sense things as being or not being natural. Sometimes you don't see differences in someone appearance after a plastic surgery, a nose being 'fixed', a belly being sucked out. When they fit nicely by your judgement, they are ok. Now, it's up to your judgement if they are 'natural' or 'not'. By my standards, when I see people who look more like a doll, with a waxed skin, monstrously huge lips, or when they can barely smile in danger of splitting their face in half - those doesn't look normal to me, or natural. What's natural in all that situation is the humane feeling of those people to perform changes in their body as their will. As each of us have our own body, the least freedom we should be naturally granted is having it the way we want. In that perception, it all becomes unnatural when you start simply being someone others want you to be – if it clashes with your own perception of self control or freedom.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted January 13, 2016 09:14 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
Afaik
Doomforge said:
They do.
I'm sorry but, do you guys speak from first-hand experience? Because I do, and she was a perfectly regular girl (not for "special kind of audience"), did nothing excessive and had her surgery in Switzerland (so pretty far away from the "shaman tent" scenario).
____________
|
|
William
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 08:41 AM |
|
|
Doomforge said:
#reachforthestars
It doesn't work because we AREN'T perfect which is what makes us human. I for one am perfectly happy with that. I'm perfectly happy looking the way I do or making mistakes or whatever because it helps build my character and who I am as an individual. If we were all perfect we would all be the same. What a boring world that would be.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 08:56 AM |
|
|
William said:
Doomforge said:
#reachforthestars
It doesn't work because we AREN'T perfect which is what makes us human. I for one am perfectly happy with that. I'm perfectly happy looking the way I do or making mistakes or whatever because it helps build my character and who I am as an individual. If we were all perfect we would all be the same. What a boring world that would be.
It's imperfection that makes people boring in the first place.
For example, not having enough intelligence, perception, or charisma (geez, seems like a Fallout character ) would negatively influence your ability to make interesting conversations with people. That makes you boring, and those are character flaws.
"perfect people are boring" = sophism
There is nothing wrong with self-improving, Will. Unless you're doing it to impress insignificant others, of course.
But, I'm happy if I can train myself a better body for my girlfriend, and she likes it too (vice versa), so why wouldn't we? We can lie to ourselves that we're the pinnacle of attractiveness to each other, mostly to cover up that we're lazy and don't want to shapen up, or we can just do it to lust over each other some more, which is not only good for relationship, but also healthy.
I don't need surgery myself since I don't have any major screwups, but if I had one, I'd do it. No point in clinging to something that's a genetic error in the first place. [batman's voice]. It's not the errors that define me, it's what I do [/batman's voice]. And if genetic screwups aren't defining, I see them for what they are: errors. And I change them, if necessary.
markkur said:
If any person weighing such matters were living in difficult circumstance, like being hungry most of the time, would they then be driven by cosmetic change?
Since there would be a drastic change of environment (third world, probably - worse third world than Poorland, that is ), it would bring a shift of what the person's society perceives as well. While "tuning up" would be out of the person's reach, a naturally beautiful person would have a much easier time there anyway, and again for zero effort.
Galaad said:
I'm sorry but, do you guys speak from first-hand experience? Because I do, and she was a perfectly regular girl (not for "special kind of audience"), did nothing excessive and had her surgery in Switzerland (so pretty far away from the "shaman tent" scenario).
Yes.
And let's put it this way: for you to feel boobs, plastic or natural, a girl needs to have those boobs in the first place. I hope you get the drift.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
William
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 09:07 AM |
|
|
Doomforge said:
It's imperfection that makes people boring in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with self-improving, Will. Unless you're doing it to impress insignificant others, of course.
But, I'm happy if I can train myself a better body for my girlfriend, and she likes it too (vice versa), so why wouldn't we? We can lie to ourselves that we're the pinnacle of attractiveness to each other, mostly to cover up that we're lazy and don't want to shapen up, or we can just do it to lust over each other some more, which is not only good for relationship, but also healthy.
I don't need surgery myself since I don't have any major screwups, but if I had one, I'd do it. No point in clinging to something that's a genetic error in the first place. [batman's voice]. It's not the errors that define me, it's what I do [/batman's voice]. And if genetic screwups aren't defining, I see them for what they are: errors. And I change them, if necessary.
I can't disagree more with that first part. First of all how would you know considering nobody is perfect? Not you, your girlfriend your parents or so on. They might be your perfect soulmate or friend or whatever but as humans? No way because everybody has a different definition of what being 'perfect' is. For me? There is no perfect only being who you are.
Self improving is always good and I agree with that. I'm always self improving especially mentally. Would I try and strive to be perfect? No because I'll always be setting myself up for disappointment. Someone will come along that will think I am perfect but in reality I'm not, I'm just what they are looking for. Nothing more nothing less and that is alright to me.
There is nothing wrong with getting a better body and so on. I have never had any dramas with that. More like getting plastic surgery to alter looks in an unnatural way is what I have a problem with and think it's all stupid and a waste of money. Building your body and getting muscle and looking fit is absolutely fine and I'm happy that you're doing that because you're just getting healthier.
With the way you talk you sound as if you're a robot or something. Genetic error? It's what makes YOU well, YOU. The sooner you accept yourself the better because nothing is wrong with anybody except for the thoughts that are in your head about what looks good and what doesn't. I have bad teeth but would I change them? No. It's the way I am, it's who I am and I am happy with that. If other people aren't then that is where I use the improved mentality and remove them from my life if someone is going to be so petty about picking on something such as looks and wants me to be something I'm not.
Just with the way you talk you sound so insecure and just want a perfect world which isn't possible and I hope to god it never is made possible. It would be boring.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 10:10 AM |
|
|
With that mentality, what's the point of, idk, getting a good haircut? why not look like a bum and tell yourself "I'm not perfect anyway, why should I even bother" ? Where is the magical point of "nah, that's too much striving for perfection" and why is it precisely there?
As with all things that don't have a defined (quantified) value, it's up to you what perfection truly means to you.
I disagree that genetic errors make "me". They don't. With half my body gone, I'd still be me. Same with half my body altered. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens to the exterior shell, unless it affects the mind in a negative way.
I'll give you an example - I want to whiten my teeth, as my bones are naturally not shiny enough. Would that be too much by your logic? probably. But let's not kid ourselves, what looks leaner, prettier - yellow teeth, or white? I'm not talking about teeth that are unnaturally white (the A1 color, I believe), but just "white enough" to appear white, and not yellow. That's an example of striving for perfection that ultimately benefits you, and your partner if you have one. Unless one is trying to lie to him/herself that yellow teeth looks attractive, or even good. personally? it turns my stomach
Like I said, "perfection is boring" is a sophism. Because it makes absolutely no sense, even if it appears to be smart at first glance.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
William
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 10:20 AM |
|
|
You're going off on a tangent. My whole point has been about plastic surgery and so on and how that to me is not a good thing. I have already said to you that I agree with things like body building and getting healthy like that. Obviously cleaning teeth is important to. You're just going off on a tangent now.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 10:36 AM |
|
|
That's fine mate. We're getting slightly off topic anyway here
I'm fine with surgeries, if there is a reason for them of course, and the possible consequences are not too scary.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
William
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted January 14, 2016 10:39 AM |
|
|
So am I my friend BUT only for the right reasons. For example a burns victim or someone got a big scar on their face from a fight or something like that. Getting back to who you were is something which I have no problem with if something bad has happened to you but not getting to be something that you aren't if nothing has happened to you if that makes sense. If it was someone like me and I got plastic surgery. I mean, I don't need it and why would I get it? I'm happy with how I look and am realistic in the way the perception that I give from the way I look so why change it if nothing is wrong? That was my original meaning behind my first post.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
|
| |
|
|
