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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: How to edit HotA?
Thread: How to edit HotA? This thread is 52 pages long: 1 10 20 30 40 ... 45 46 47 48 49 ... 50 52 · «PREV / NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 12, 2018 06:12 AM

Quote:
Yes, hota team is unhealthy people, I suspect they already imagine that Heroes 3 were designed by hota.


Well, that is a very harsh (but undeniably funny ) way to put it.

What is somewhat ironic too is that hota is touted as a "true" expansion, but at the same time don't want special campaigns or mods like the ones actual expansions already have/permit, including their own being a mod over SoD...

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted July 12, 2018 10:32 AM

NimoStar said:
Problem, is incompatibility with other projects and inability of players to customize their own experience which is a little off point because that's what a mod is to begin with.

The mod/expansion is designed primarily for playing it. The modding platform is designed primarily for providing compatibility and customization. Some mods can also provide customisation and be compatible with other mods, but it is not absolutely obligatory. And HotA is much closer to the first statement.

NimoStar said:
In other words hota team is acting like they are an enterprise when they are just users with no special rights over H3. Which ironically is used as a "modding platform".

You've mixed things. Yes, original Heroes 3 is a platform for HotA Crew. But HotA Crew is a developer team for HotA users, just like NWC for original Heroes 3 users: we are the people that (within HotA project) develop the game and add new content. Of course, we don't have the rights over original H3 content, but we have the rights (not matter if not legally formalized) on the HotA content: the content that was/is created by ourselves. And, of course, we are not happy when someone just takes HotA graphics and uses it to promote another (especially competing) project.

NimoStar said:
For example they don't include campaign editor because of their "control", something that even h3 normally has...

...
We don't include Campaign Editor just because it is not ready. We even provide the not finished version of it to translators and campaign makers when they ask.

And, just to note, we provide RMG template editor, that allows much more customization than original H3 supports.

NimoStar said:
What is somewhat ironic too is that hota is touted as a "true" expansion, but at the same time don't want special campaigns or mods like the ones actual expansions already have/permit, including their own being a mod over SoD...

About Campaign Editor I've said above. Concerning modding — original Heroes 3 is surely designed not for modding. Modding H3 is hard and requires special skills, NWC provided no tools for it. HotA is the same — you can mod it, but you need the special skills and you will have no support (or very few support) from developers.

Still, there is the important difference: original Heroes 3 development was stopped long ago, and NWC are not very much interested what is going on with Heroes 3. While HotA is still developed and HotA Crew cares about its future.


***

Considering VCMI, I'll say, why it is not an option for HotA development.

1. VCMI is not fully playable, HotA is. Currently it would be the big step backward.

2. VCMI is not original Heroes 3. It has another interface, another AI, another RMG. In case of AI it is just impossible to reproduce original AI, and in tournament gaming many tactics are based on AI movement feeling and predicting, so AI must be not just "good", it must me same as original one.
Of course, HotA makes many changes to Heroes 3 itself. But at least we can control what is changed, we can revert changes back, we can keep as much from original mechanics as necessary for us. In VCMI it is impossible.

3. VCMI doesn't provide enough modding capabilities. Yes, VCMI allows adding new towns etc., but we can do this ourselves (and just technically add is not a biggest problem for town within HotA — much more important is concept and graphics design). But HotA is also about fixing original game bugs, improving interface and game core mechanics. It is just impossible for modding platform to provide anything we need. So, in case of development HotA under VCMI, the only option is fork. But this way we lose the future features of VCMI.

4. The integrity of HotA is bad compatible with the philosophy of the maximum compatibility. The bright example why integrity is important is the mutliplayer game: if every player will have his own set of mods, it will be very hard for them to connect and play with each other.

5. The technical part of HotA development is reverse engineering. It is hard but fascinating process. While writing json-files is routine and boring. Writing VCMI code in case of fork is also much less interesting than reversing. And I am even not sure that it is much easier for me: I know the original game code well while I don't know VCMI code at all. At least it requires a period of adaptation to VCMI code before the work will become effective.

***


Ben80 said:
Yes, hota team is unhealthy people

Is it unhealthy to create a self-sufficient expansion with unique content? Or maybe to state "Ok, you've created that content, but now I'll just move it to my project, and you cannot stop that, but please don't stop creating content, I want to use your future content too" ?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 12, 2018 12:39 PM

Sav said:
original Heroes 3 development was stopped long ago, and NWC are not very much interested what is going on with Heroes3


But it looks like Ubisoft had some interest into optimizing original graphics, when they released H3 HD. Which brings me to the question: have you guys tried to contact any officials, show them your work and go one step further, release another expansion but this time as full paid employees as it should be?
____________
Era II mods and utilities

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted July 12, 2018 01:58 PM

Salamandre said:
But it looks like Ubisoft had some interest into optimizing original graphics, when they released H3 HD. Which brings me to the question: have you guys tried to contact any officials, show them your work and go one step further, release another expansion but this time as full paid employees as it should be?

In theory some kind of cooperation with the right holder can be interesting, but there was some information that Ubisoft don't behave itself kindly even to official developers (i. e. Black Hole), so it is probably better to remain ignored.

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted July 12, 2018 02:28 PM

Sav said:
Is it unhealthy to create a self-sufficient expansion with unique content? Or maybe to state "Ok, you've created that content, but now I'll just move it to my project, and you cannot stop that, but please don't stop creating content, I want to use your future content too" ?


Îê, I'm apologizing... What meant many people while criticizing HotA - is HotA psychology, position as centre of Heroes world. It can not be proved but feeling is that your team don't like any other Heroes projects not too much from original game. For example VCMI. For example, Docent somewhere said that "this is not Heroes". I understand him, he sees VCMI as opponent project.
Yes, VCMI may reproduce only general mechanics of Heroes, not all. But new mechanics (AI, for example) may be better eventually than original Heroes. It is the same as HotA approach - you are trying to improve some things...

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted July 12, 2018 02:42 PM

Besides, I'm wondering why HotA need modding forums, if HotA don't share even small parts of code or other important information. You could simply give new HotA versions to final users... Yes, I saw in forums very interesting info from Sav (for example) but it was long ago...

Ñould HotA have occurred at all, if not Wog project which give to Heroes world wonderful IDA database and sources ? I think, not...

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FfuzzyLogik
FfuzzyLogik


Adventuring Hero
posted July 12, 2018 02:55 PM

Good evening everyone,

Excuse me to be rude but...

First, if one team want to do something and not share a part of its work, its their right. Its their work and no one (out of them) can claim it. Even if, for a mod of some old game, I don't really understand why they may not want to share the skill and knowlege... But if its their choice.
I thank HotA team for their work, the part they shared with us and the time they spend for others. I also thank VCMI team for the same reasons. Even if these projects don't "finish", I hope you enjoyed to make them.

Second, thinking about "competition" here looks wreid to me... And quite insulting. As said, no mod of this game is "fully legal" we own no right about the game. So we all are persons who "copy" something... And its unfair to not say "the most good original ideas come from NWC, not form anyone of us"... If NWC just don't care about that, 20 years after game was done it may be... Because we don't give them money enough to make them continue so we don't support them for their work... So I suggest we're respectful of persons who continue to improve a game we normally like and for free now !

Third, as I read, insulting is not allowed but and all the ... (you can place insults in these ... at your own will) written here to debate about things looks useless and is... Not well placed. We are here in a "how to edit ..." thread.
So please, if you want to debate about opinions about someone's ideas/philosphy, please, find a better place.
Here I've read some of greatest content, helpful persons, polite guys, passionnate ones... So please, stop those attacks.
VCMI and HotA works differently and the teams have different point of view. That's all, useless to say "this one is best" its an opinion, not a fact. So stop "discuss" about tastes and colours... Its waste of time and not the subject here.

That being said, if all agree (and maybe even if "all" don't), I suggest to some admin to delete all those last posts because they are not at their place and because (worst of all) are not really respectful nor constructive...

Why the few last persons who are playing and/or modding heroes series are "fighting" instead of sharing experience, game, play... Don't you see that you are wasting so much time and destroying the "good" will of the modders ? Well, sorry. Delete that all please and begin with my post.

Have a good day,
____________
FfuzzyLogik.

If I'm crazy ? Sure, because its madness to be normal...

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 12, 2018 03:23 PM

Ben80 said:


Ñould HotA have occurred at all, if not Wog project which give to Heroes world wonderful IDA database and sources ? I think, not...


WoG source code is available for years to anyone. And... nobody touched it. Bersy develops ERA in his way because for years we still don't have WoG 3.59.
So... releasing HotA source code won't change anything. Programming issues are difficult thing that only few guys can handle.

Personally, me - as heavily vcmi player and mod maker - I really like to play HotA in HotA way and I understand team to make HotA addon like any official h3 addon - stable, playable and unmoddable.


____________

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 12, 2018 04:11 PM

FfuzzyLogik said:
I suggest to some admin to delete all those last posts


You can rest assured that I am reading these posts. I don't wish to regulate this thread to death, so to speak, so I've let it slide for the time being. I might go back and edit a thing or two though.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted July 12, 2018 04:49 PM

Sav said:

2. VCMI is not original Heroes 3. It has another interface, another AI, another RMG.


HotA also have another interface, RMG should be improved long ago and HotA would made both changed AI and RMG if can do it.
If VCMI will make AI very different from original one I would say that it is Heroes 3. If HotA will not delete new Resistance sec. skill and "Spell research" I would say that HotA is not Heroes 3...

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Ben80
Ben80


Adventuring Hero
posted July 12, 2018 04:52 PM

NimoStar said:
hota is touted as a "true" expansion


I would say that earlier verions of WoG (without commanders and creature experience) were closer to original Heroes 3 by spirit than HotA.

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted July 12, 2018 08:57 PM

wuxiangjinxing said:
So is it possible to remove the requirement of Magic University for Upg. Magic Lantern?


I've already given an answer regarding this, it has not changed.
It is changed by HotA.dll and I don't dig in there. I provided the means to edit it with plugin; otherwise you can try searching in HotA.dll.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 13, 2018 04:43 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:58, 13 Jul 2018.

So I tried changing two heroes specialty, because I find them completely useless:
Melodia: Fortune -> Air Shield - New special like Dargem in HotA, the special seems to work just as it should.
Inteus: Bloodlust -> Misfortune - Now this does'nt work, is it because Misfortune is not an existing specialty?, or does it need to be "unlocked" somehow? If Misfortune won't work, I will probably change it to Fireball, even though Xarfax (and Manfred in HotA) already has this specialty.

Also I can't remember if we talked about it in this thread before, but is it possible to reduce bonus mana from Dungeon's Mana Vortex from +100% -> +75% (I also reduced Expert Intelligence to +75%, so would make sense.)
Extra bonus would be if there is a way to make AI actually build Mana Vortex.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 14, 2018 02:55 PM

OxFEA said:
I don't think so, it's just removing a combatMonster_ResetSpellFromStack call (0x444230) from cases in combatMonster_ApplySpell (0x444610).

For Bless/Curse, e.g.:
00444809 909090909090909090
0044481D 909090909090909090

Haste/Slow
004449C4 909090909090909090
00444A33 909090909090909090

It's been a while, but I finally tested this out and it works, it is possible to apply both Haste and Slow or Bless and Curse, but something goes wrong mathematically when both Haste and Slow or Bless and Curse is applied, they will not get the correct speed or do the correct damage. So it would be better instead of applying both spells they would cancel each other out, so Haste after Slow, would cancel both spells and the other way around. (Same with Bless/Curse) Is this possible?

Also still hoping for an answer regarding the post above.

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted July 14, 2018 07:27 PM

Specialties don't require to be unlocked. Either they exist in game code or they don't. Learning specialty exists in SoD, there's just no hero with that specialty.

Vortex: this isn't perfect but should do the job considering HotA stops leveling at 74 now. Rounds to nearest integer rather than floor. (e.g. 10 becomes 17.5 >>> 18 and not 17)
0x5BDD2C
D1 E0 50 DB 04 E4 D9 1C E4 E8 E6 6D F2 FF D8 0C E4 D8 0D D4 04 66 00 DB 1C E4 5B 0F BF 4F 18 0F BF DB

Red is dword address used for 1.75 constant if you ever want to change it later or if HotA does something different there.

Haste/Slow
If the mechanic does not exist in the base game, then the answer is... you know it, with a plugin.
There's just way too many conditions for hex edit.

Removing stuff is generally easy, adding stuff is a pain. Modifying stuff is in between.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 14, 2018 07:53 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:55, 14 Jul 2018.

So that means Fortune specialty exists, but Misfortune does'nt? But HotA created new specials for the Cove units, but I guess they used an unknown method then? Is there a way to tell which specials exists and which don't?, or is it good old trial and error?

Hmm regarding Mana Vortex, you need to do that patcher-thing right? Yeah probably not gonna happen.
Do you know if it's possible to make AI build Mana Vortex?

And Haste/Slow, Bless/Curse not possible without plug-in, gotcha.  

Thanks for the answers RK, though it looks like I can't change much this time.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 14, 2018 08:39 PM

phoenix4ever said:
But HotA created new specials for the Cove units


They programmed a lot of stuff outside the base code . They use execution hooks in memory to insert their own code and in their own code, they could basically make anything happen.

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted July 14, 2018 08:41 PM

You can go through the code line by line or do trials. One is obviously faster.

Vortex: I gave you hex values and address...

AI: I'm not willing to dig into AI procedures. The things that interest me are original mechanics and related bugs, and UI. The rest I don't waste time to understand.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 14, 2018 08:48 PM

@RoseKavalier
Okay I might mess around with specials for a bit then. But I can conclude Curse as a specialty does'nt exist either, would have been interesting for Inteus though.

Yeah but that "dword" is not ordinary hex editing is it? I don't have the numbers you mention at that address either…

Fair enough about not wanting to dig into the AI.

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted July 14, 2018 09:06 PM

Remember in hex edits to reverse:
D4 04 66 00 is 0x6604D4 (3FE00000)


Dword is just the length of the instruction - 4 bytes. You could find a Qword (8 bytes) reference you want to use but with the code I proposed it'd be useless. If you want to change it later, search for floats that are 4 bytes wide.

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